Ange in or out?

[glorygloryeze]

No we played four decent teams and four 'lesser' teams same as everyone else. We struggled yet won 5 out of 8 games and drew 2....must be the luckiest side going. Apparently the argument was results are all that matters when earlier in the season we lost games we didn't deserve to. So, in Europe we have been getting results under Ange this season end of. That's not me saying we will win it, but there is nothing about our results in Europe this season that have been a concern....

The cream generally rises to the top. And it's the same in the EL competition. Yes, it doesn't ahve the same big sides it used to when CL dropouts joined after christmas, but then WE ourselves are less good than we've generally been in recent years so that all balances out for me anyway.

Which part of our dismal run domestically says we will be able to step up against the better sides that are left? As time has gone on our attack (the main straw we all clutched) is now looking more and more blunt. If we were improving or showed signs we could step up in do-or-die games when the opposition is better than top 9/10 levels then i'd be thinking differently, alas...

 

[glorygloryeze]

It's a dangerous path IMO and @glasgowspur is correct. If a manager came in and won us the EL, breaking a17 year trophy drought, and we sacked them in the next 12 months, we'd be absolutely slaughtered and our reputation, such as it is, would be in tatters. Chelsea were different to us in many respects not least they were winning trophies left, right and centre.

We also have to consider that, if we got Benitez or someone similar, we'd be veering from one style of manager to the opposite again. It'd look horrendous.

It's a bad spot for the club to be in.

If the manager we get to come in is called "Caretaker", i don;t think it matters. That "Caretaker" may themselves see us as a stepping stone/advert for a bigger job anyway

 

[harr1984]

The cream generally rises to the top. And it's the same in the EL competition. Yes, it doesn't ahve the same big sides it used to when CL dropouts joined after christmas, but then WE ourselves are less good than we've generally been in recent years so that all balances out for me anyway.

Which part of our dismal run domestically says we will be able to step up against the better sides that are left? As time has gone on our attack (the main straw we all clutched) is now looking more and more blunt. If we were improving or showed signs we could step up in do-or-die games when the opposition is better than top 9/10 levels then i'd be thinking differently, alas...

You do realise when we went on our run to get to the final of the CL under Poch our league form had been poor for some time? When West Ham won the Conference cup their league form was terrible. Domestic and European football don't have to be interlinked, and regardless I quite clearly said I didn't think we will win it anyway. But the fact is our European results to date have been fine this season and there is nothing wrong with letting Ange see out the European 'adventure'....

 

[Mcfee]

Need to consider that if we bring a temp or mason and they win the EL it will be very difficult to sack them and give it to someone else when they become available in the summer without looking silly.

“Oh fcuk we need to keep Ange in case his temporary replacement wins the Europa!”

Only at Spurs..

 

[glorygloryeze]

You do realise when we went on our run to get to the final of the CL under Poch our league form had been poor for some time? When West Ham won the Conference cup their league form was terrible. Domestic and European football don't have to be interlinked, and regardless I quite clearly said I didn't think we will win it anyway. But the fact is our European results to date have been fine this season and there is nothing wrong with letting Ange see out the European 'adventure'....

I doubt either our form to get to the CL in 2019 or West Ham's when they won the Conference cup was as bad as ours currently..

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Just on the whole piece re: fan confrontations, it is possible to look at this with a bit more nuance than some are displaying in this thread and IMO ALL of the below can simultaneously be true:
1) Fans throwing out abuse to opposition players, fans and staff and turning on their own when results are poor can cross the line into behaviour that shouldn't really be tolerated.
2) Saying that, football is a highly emotional sport and working class fans in particular are being asked to give more and more of their money and themselves (their own free time) due to rising numbers of games and ticket prices. These people are expected to invest their life and soul into a club and keep their emotions in check when the sh** hits the fan. Not everyone can and therefore we know that this is simply part of the game that everyone accepts.
3) Part of being a truly elite coach or player is being able to focus, stay professional and detach yourself from these sort of emotions, and play or stay calm in a hostile atmosphere and situation.
4) Ange (and any Spurs head coach for that matter) is fundamentally the public face of a $1 billion brand. And they are rewarded accordingly.
5) Some of the fans behaviour towards Ange was no doubt unacceptable.
6) But Ange's behaviour is completely unacceptable and it isn't a one-off.
7) He's been unnecessarily abrasive and confrontational since day one at times, whether that's with journalists, fans or even our own players (please defend his treatment of Spence someone)
8) It's all part of the evidence that Ange is a bit out of his depth at this level and he himself FEELS out of his depth. He's not looked comfortable here from day dot and that eventually spreads to the players and fans and media coverage around the club. We now get a resoundingly negative press coverage. The way we play, routinely gets slaughtered and even made fun off. There's clearly not mich good will towards Ange in many quarters now and a lot of that I feel has been unnecessarily brought on himself and the club due to his actions.
9) Ange's inability to keep his cool in hostile situations translates onto the pitch ehere this spurs team are particularly prone to wilting in a hostile atmosphere IMO.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

You do realise when we went on our run to get to the final of the CL under Poch our league form had been poor for some time? When West Ham won the Conference cup their league form was terrible. Domestic and European football don't have to be interlinked, and regardless I quite clearly said I didn't think we will win it anyway. But the fact is our European results to date have been fine this season and there is nothing wrong with letting Ange see out the European 'adventure'....

Not sure I'd agree. They haven't reflected our position as bookies favourites. Results against Galatasary, Rangers and AZ have been poor and performances have often been very poor, even when the result has been OK. We got away with it against Qarabag, Ferencvaros, Rangers, Roma and Hoffenheim IMO Poor finishing by those teams saved our blushes.

 

[harr1984]

I doubt either our form to get to the CL in 2019 or West Ham's when they won the Conference cup was as bad as ours currently..

It was mentioned many times, our form that whole calendar year under Poch was awful. And West Ham finished 14th the year they won the Conference league when in previous seasons they had been in European places under Moyes. The point isn't whose is better, the point is European runs don't always correlate with what you are doing domestically....

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

“Oh fcuk we need to keep Ange in case his temporary replacement wins the Europa!”

Only at Spurs..

Something about Ange in particular really seems to have dialled the general insanity meter up to max!

 

[fernadez]

Bournemouth fans seem pretty resigned to Iraola leaving. Not exactly happy about, but accepting that it's what happens.

 

[monkeybarry]

Tbf if it is the injuries that are responsible for a large part of what we are seeing then giving him 10-15 games to show an upturn with a good squad to pick from is probably fair to him.

The EL element is only truly rebooted by employing a new manager that we have been tracking anyway and is available now. That's highly unlikely scenario.

I don't think Mills/Mason are any more likely to succeed (less in fact) than rolling the dice that Ange does get us back on track.

I'm now thinking that even if Ange does win us the EL, it's no given that he should carry on. Because he gets us thru a semi final and a final is no way to analyze the bigger picture just as losing 3 games would be no reason to sack someone. Data, conversation and less emotion is the route to the correct decision.

That depends on what you think the significant contributing factor was for those injuries.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I honestly think that Mason would do a better job and improve our chances of the EL just by ending the immediate negativity and divisiveness that's built up around the Ange tenure, relax the players a bit more and tactically just make us less open and a but tougher to beat. And play the likes of Sonny and Maddison in roles that play to their strengths and protect their weaknesses. I think that could give us a far better platform to let our individual quality which still exists in those sort of plays be telling, particularly in the EL

Gawd knows what Mason might do tactically....but I might be more convinced if it was evident the players had downed tools.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Gawd knows what Mason might do tactically....but I might be more convinced if it was evident the players had downed tools.

Do players actually ever "down tools"? Or do they just do what we have been seeing? Just lose more and more faith in what they're doing on the pitch to the point where eveb subconsciously they're trying to mitigate their perceived flaws in tactical instructions by doing more and more of their own thing on the pitch so things get more and more messy and performances get worse and worse?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I see the logic in that argument too. But for me, all we are doing is delaying the inevitable and managing the optics if we stick with him.

To apply Ange's comments on hindsight last week, it'd be easy to judge at the end of the season when the results are in. In my view, you can see now what will happen. The way we defend, the lack of application, the blunt attack. All the signs are there now regardless of personnel. He will not win the EL - I'd be surprised if we even make the semis.

In the league, I expect we'll be beaten by Chelsea and Liverpool and have middling results against the rest. Maybe beat Southampton, lose to Wolves. Beat Palace, lose to Forest etc.

Our defence under him has always been poor regardless of personnel and, IMO, was always a barrier to us winning anything. Now the belief has drained from the players and you can see that in the application which is also manifesting itself in an inability to attack like we did early in his reign. Throw in him confronting fans and biting at silly stuff in press conferences and he's the epitome of a dead man walking. Personnel won't make a big difference and we can either wait until the end of the season and sacrifice any hope of the EL just to say we gave him the fairest of cracks or we act now and roll the dice again.

We are not managing optics...we are playing the cards available to us. A manager on the list gettable...yep, go for it.

Predicting what 'might' happen is a fruitless task...for the sake of a few games in a season that's already forgettable you might as well see it out, then re-evaluate.

What would be interesting, and usually at the forefront of DLs mind..is the incremental prize money ladder that's on offer via your finishing place in the PL. I'd hazard a guess that finishing 8th rather than 14th is probably worth more than winning the EL (not inc the value of CL that brings the following year).
Edit...14th £20.8m ...8th £40.5m ..last season

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

That depends on what you think the significant contributing factor was for those injuries.

Indeed. A secondary question that needs answering..not necessarily definitively but at least best guess with information available

 

[fernadez]

Do players actually ever "down tools"? Or do they just do what we have been seeing? Just lose more and more faith in what they're doing on the pitch to the point where eveb subconsciously they're trying to mitigate their perceived flaws in tactical instructions by doing more and more of their own thing on the pitch so things get more and more messy and performances get worse and worse?

I think a lot of it is subconscious.

When your pushing forward results in the team conceeding from the area all your career you've been taught that you should be, eventually you'll lose faith in what you're being told.

There has to be evidence that the methods will work for faith to remain intact.

Then you get a mashup of players following instructions to the letter, those doing it half hearted, those ignoring it etc.

It's why building a solid foundation first is the way to build anything successful, so that in times of hardship there is something to fall back on. Never did Ange make us hard to play against and beat, so now the attack has dried up, we're fudged.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

We are not managing optics...we are playing the cards available to us. A manager on the list gettable...yep, go for it.

Predicting what 'might' happen is a fruitless task...for the sake of a few games in a season that's already forgettable you might as well see it out, then re-evaluate.

What would be interesting, and usually at the forefront of DLs mind..is the incremental prize money ladder that's on offer via your finishing place in the PL. I'd hazard a guess that finishing 8th rather than 14th is probably worth more than winning the EL (not inc the value of CL that brings the following year).

Prize money in PL got to point where if you accept you're not challenging for the league it's probably better to finish in the highest league place you can to avoid qualifying for Europe because it gives you more money than the CL and means you're more likely to finish high the next season.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I think a lot of it is subconscious.

When your pushing forward results in the team conceeding from the area all your career you've been taught that you should be, eventually you'll lose faith in what you're being told.

There has to be evidence that the methods will work for faith to remain intact.

Then you get a mashup of players following instructions to the letter, those doing it half hearted, those ignoring it etc.

It's why building a solid foundation first is the way to build anything successful, so that in times of hardship there is something to fall back on. Never did Ange make us hard to play against and beat, so now the attack has dried up, we're fudged.

I've been saying this from day one. We've basically seen this guy playing this really interesting unorthodox style and winning with it in the Scottish league and power and decided to run this big experiment in whether this "Ange ball" method can work against a quality opposition. And at the heart of Ange ball is it's entirely focused on playing the attacking game well and so when everyone is on it, and the oposition is a but off, it can work spectacularly. But that happens about 4 or 5 games. The big leagues in Europe are often about getting through the tough periods where high quality teams have their spells of dominance in games in tact and making sure you're taking your chances to hurt them when you have your spell. It's a grind. Even City or Liverpool winning the league by a country mile are having to eek out so many tight 1-0 and 2-1 wins with real displays of grit and solidity. We are incapable of doing that and that is absolutely damning IMO of this coaching set up.

 

[thfcsteff]

Most decent human beings wouldn't condone abuse in any walk of life. Sadly it happens and how you react to it matters. Imagine for a second we were to agree with your's and Steff's proposition that it's ok to react to it. There would be anarchy. With respect, that is school playground stuff. It's not about how much someone is paid.

Ange seems particularly thin skinned. These examples of reacting to supporters and other members of his team ushering him away have become all too common. It's not acceptable. And to be honest he is probably making it worse because supporters love to rile the person they are abusing. If the abuse crosses the line then report the person and get them thrown out and banned.

Give Ange his credit. He ignored the first, what, 100 or so? Maybe more? Most people in daily life suffer (if they're unlucky) a few instances of verbal abuse in their lives. Most just about make it through without a fight. Most will respond verbally after one or two blasts.

I find your viewpoint on this to be lacking in true context, and the 'schoolboy stuff' comment patronising (respect having been noted).
Thankfully, in daily life, this sort of verbal abuse is actually very rare, thus why we don't have your 'anarchy scenario. When it happens dozens and dozens of time, both in and not in person, it would wear anyone down. Put yourself in those shoes for a moment and see how thick your skin would be.

I have to also say that for every incident of Ange filmed and immediately shared by some helpful internet w-anker, you can likely find the same amount for most managers under any form of pressure. Whether you think it is right or wrong, it is a human reaction to repeated abuse.

 

[thfcsteff]

Along with persistent injuries...The other point that was discussed at the time was Pochs repurposing of Dele as a workhorse midfielder. No blame on Poch for that, as needs must. Dembele was gone and Wanyama declined

I believe Southgate was the first to do that at the 2018 World Cup so as he could Lindgaard in the mix with Sterling and Kane. Dele was pretty good at it, albeit we lost his true inate ability to drift in the half-space off the shoulder.