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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 77 45.3%
  • Out

    Votes: 93 54.7%

  • Total voters
    170
With many apologies, I have made several posts which virtually mirrors yours above without having seen it until just now!!!! I'll leave mine too as record, but wanted you to know I had not seen this yetand ended up writing something which is 80% similar. My only disagreement would be on who broke him. Physically I'd say it was age versus a lot of football too fast. Mentally, I'd say it was Mourinho...

...one thing is clear. We both hold the same reverance for a player who was sensational for several seasons.
The poor guy was broke physically and mentally
He had played a huge amount of games off his age, a crazy amount and supper high pressure ones too
He also had the shadow of his past sat there in the back of his head which was clearly coming more and more to the front
He is the one player that fans still think of as our own even though we brought him
 
Most decent human beings wouldn't condone abuse in any walk of life. Sadly it happens and how you react to it matters. Imagine for a second we were to agree with your's and Steff's proposition that it's ok to react to it. There would be anarchy. With respect, that is school playground stuff. It's not about how much someone is paid.

Ange seems particularly thin skinned. These examples of reacting to supporters and other members of his team ushering him away have become all too common. It's not acceptable. And to be honest he is probably making it worse because supporters love to rile the person they are abusing. If the abuse crosses the line then report the person and get them thrown out and banned.
Fans abuse players and staff as they see fit because they think there is some kind of protective wall between fans and footballers, it's pathetic - they wouldnt try half the things they do in the stand in the street. You have an issue with it that's fair enough, I don't particularly disagree with what you have said here but I never will have an issue with a player or manager reacting to the abuse that gets hurled their way, they are not robots....
 
In 18/19 he missed 110 days with injuries (mostly hamstring).
In 19/20 and 20/21 he missed 70 days (hamstring and muscle injuries).

I think the truth lies in there somewhere with regards to Dele going 'off the boil' under Poch...
Along with persistent injuries...The other point that was discussed at the time was Pochs repurposing of Dele as a workhorse midfielder. No blame on Poch for that, as needs must. Dembele was gone and Wanyama declined
 
Fans abuse players and staff as they see fit because they think there is some kind of protective wall between fans and footballers, it's pathetic - they wouldnt try half the things they do in the stand in the street. You have an issue with it that's fair enough, I don't particularly disagree with what you have said here but I never will have an issue with a player or manager reacting to the abuse that gets hurled their way, they are not robots....
Much like the internet...ie a protective wall. Although I'm sure that learned behaviour seeps in to real world situations....anger, complaint, abuse it's a way of life these days.

Ange should not react though...there's nothing to gain.

Maybe get him a pair of those headphones you put on your little kid at the fireworks
 
Much like the internet...ie a protective wall. Although I'm sure that learned behaviour seeps in to real world situations....anger, complaint, abuse it's a way of life these days.

Ange should not react though...there's nothing to gain.

Maybe get him a pair of those headphones you put on your little kid at the fireworks
The journalists on yesterday's Tottenham Way podcast were discussing how someone at the club should have got hold of him months ago and helped him with the media - the message being that for 90 minutes after a game, take a breath, say and do nothing controversial and get on the bus!
 
If you want the adulation that comes with success in sports, you also need to handle the criticism and negativity when it comes your way.

I don’t have much sympathy, it’s part of the game. Without the extreme negativity, you probably wouldn’t experience the extreme positivity either. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction and all that...
 
My parents would be mortified if I behaved the way some fans do abusing footballers and the staff. It's simply not a level I would ever go to and as far as I'm concerned any normal human wouldn't.

The idea that a human being should just constantly take said abuse all because they are being rewarded well financially and because they are the manager is a thought process I will never agree with. I don't see how we will ever get rid of such behaviour(of course I doubt we ever will) if the suggestion is certain levels of authority should just take it and do nothing....

I think most of us have probably said something towards a player/coach etc in the moment and then regretted it. But these days you get clams saying something specifically to get a reaction so they can film and upload it for the likes. It’s truly pathetic.
 
After Spurs played Liverpool in Baltimore in 2012, I called out “you scouse bastard!” to Steven Gerrard as he walked off the pitch — barely anyone around so he was always going to hear it. Boy, did he fudging tear into me! “Come down here then if you’re that fudging hard” etc etc. Shat myself, quietly apologised and went on with my day, full appreciating that he was absolutely in the right.
 
Answers within the post my friend (great discussion BTW)...




You won't even get it in digital ink!!!! :p




Gotcha.



No mate, not excuses, facts.
The job description he came into included dealing with that situation. Mourinho and Conte were brought in for short-term deliveries and given no responsibilities to deal with any of that structure. Nuno? I think he was woefully unlucky and left hanging by everyone. Scarlett, meanwhile, has been around since Jose days, Dorrington has been injured until recently and is not a great fit pace-wise for the club right now, Donely has been excellently managed as seen with the Orient loan, Moore was thrown in too quickly for proper development but has been managed well given the emergencies. In fact, the way we've developed Donely and Moore in particular will benefit the next incoming hugely.





No mate, I disagree. He came into a side which had lost 52 goals in Berbatov and Keane, and was famously in the relegation zone. Harry was a desperate punt. Kelmsey told Levy to get Redknapp because he could get us out of it. He did. He made safe, short-term purchases. He got a few duds too. He nearly fudged Bale off. He was fun. But to say the football structure was ripped up when he came in? Only in the sense that Harry operates old-school and any of Levy's DOF stuff got parked because of it.

Jol certainly kick-started a lot for us. Arnesen, had he stuck around, would've been an excellent foil for Jol. He managed to implement some great younger players with experienced teachers on-field (Naybet, Davids...BTW, that might be one issue with the current system, that we didn't strategise enough to have one or two of those i.e. pay big for a Kimmich to teach teach teach!)...Poch speaks for himself - generational and we were blessed...Jose lied to get the gig (told Levy no rebuild was necessary as he could win with what was there)...Conte did superbly to get that CL spot, my big issue with him has always been that I felt he wouold walk if he felt unsupported, instead he stuck around despite feeling that and proceeded to c -unt out the entire club!






For me it is not black and white across the time. Of course he has to accept responsibility - he's the manager - and there are reasons. You call them excuses.





And I think if you've paid close attention to what I've been saying in recent weeks, I agree, it has become untenable. Where we disagree is why.

BTW, why is everyone so hung up on this 'second year' rubbish? He was asked a question. He replied. Until post-Frankfurt or a knock-out in the Europa, it remains a factual truth.





Again, I wish you'd back away from the 'how anyone can still be in his corner' rhetoric. I am in his corner as a human being who has been doing the very best he can with a deck which has been incredibly lop-sided for long periods of his tenure. Does it feel like he's at the end of his road with us? Put it this way, the Spurs satnav suggests that is exactly the case. But because I refuse (steadfastly in fact) to get into some of the IMO OTT rhetoric regarding him as a manager, does that mean I am 'in his corner'? Come on.

I'll add this as a closer. I watched the clips of our 'supporters' at Fulham, berating Ange and going off at Tel. I have n o time for it whatsoever, and frankly, given the bollox Postecoglu has been facing all season, I found hios reaction absolutely acceptable and (if anything) mellow. This perpetual idea that just because they're highly paid professionals they should accept being abused in public situations is IMO wrong. As much as I dislike Mourinho, I would never ever have abused him in person (all employees of ours get my benefit of doubt). My POV on abusing players in person has been noted before and has not changed.
Fair enough Steff, I'll address a couple of points.

I'm not hung up on the second year thing at all. I think he was very naive in what he said but when he elaborated in a press conference, it was clear that he was just answering the question as a matter of fact. I've said many times on here that his words have been willfully manipulated by the press and rival fans to build him up and knock him down. That's why I'd have been thrilled for him to win something this year and make the critics (me included) look silly.

Apologies if the "how are people in his corner" came across as rhetoric. But, at the end of the day, whether to keep Ange or not keep Ange is a binary choice. It's yes or no. My question is to those who say yes. If you think we should keep Ange, what would he have had to do this season to deserve the sack? Is it a complete free pass because of injuries? Otherwise, please help me understand the logic because, even trying to play devil's advocate, I can't see any rationale for keeping him.

Sounds like we're agreed on Ange's future but disagree on the reasons why, as you say yourself. I feel for the guy on a personal level. I think he's a good football manager, has achieved brilliant things in his career but he's in a situation that's beyond his capabilities. Not his fault, it's elite sport, it's brutal and very few are good enough for it. There's absolutely no shame for him in failing at this level IMO.
 
I think most of us have probably said something towards a player/coach etc in the moment and then regretted it. But these days you get clams saying something specifically to get a reaction so they can film and upload it for the likes. It’s truly pathetic.
I lost it at Ramos up at Stoke when we got beat 2-1. He didn't hear me as I was a good distance away but I felt like an utter rooster over it and still cringe. No-one has a right to personally abuse players or managers either at the ground or online. I don't care if you pay y0ur money. Boo by all accounts if you're unhappy but personal abuse is way out of order and doesn't do any good anyway.

There's a lad a few down from me at the ground and he always has a spacegoat. I remember him roaring "Eric Dier, you're f**king brick". Does he really think Dier was going to hear that and go "You know what man, you're absolutely right. I'm gonna ask to come off now". Brainless.
 
I don't think getting personal is acceptable, except maybe in the case of where an opponent has done something particularly nasty (a challenge that sought to cause injury).

I think constructive criticism is more effective all round though. So I'd never go for an 'Ange you're brick, go back to the PE classroom' to him in person. I'd maybe go for a 'Hey Ange, do you know fullbacks are allowed to defend too', or something more that tone.
 
After Spurs played Liverpool in Baltimore in 2012, I called out “you scouse bastard!” to Steven Gerrard as he walked off the pitch — barely anyone around so he was always going to hear it. Boy, did he fudging tear into me! “Come down here then if you’re that fudging hard” etc etc. Shat myself, quietly apologised and went on with my day, full appreciating that he was absolutely in the right.

Was it ian dowie who chased a fan around the stand when he got abused as manager?
 
I think most of us have probably said something towards a player/coach etc in the moment and then regretted it. But these days you get clams saying something specifically to get a reaction so they can film and upload it for the likes. It’s truly pathetic.

You're right. The filming of it and the social media aspect is the toxic part.

What I always find sad though is that there is no true voice of the customer (VoX) in football. Not just Spurs obviously. The media get to ask questions and the manager gets to choose to answer them properly or not. What the pressers really need is a platform where fans questions make it to the foreground. After all, they are the ones paying for the product, not just all these middle men.

I could imagine at a presser, a fan question is read out along the lines of "There's been lots of question from fans on the website asking about your utilisation of the number 6 in your system. There is a strong sentiment that it may be costing us quite a few goals by not having anyone shielding in front of the back four. Can you share some perspectives?"

Or "The fans online are saying that the goal against AZ was the best goal of your Spurs tenure. Do you agree?"

Obviously, Ange would have been given these questions in advance and not be curve balled. For me, it would just create a better relationship with the fans. May not stop the idiots on the terraces, but at least having something front-ended through the official website that makes it to the pressers would show that the fan has a forum to ask questions.
 
There's a lad a few down from me at the ground and he always has a spacegoat. I remember him roaring "Eric Dier, you're f**king brick". Does he really think Dier was going to hear that and go "You know what man, you're absolutely right. I'm gonna ask to come off now". Brainless.
I was sitting in one of the front few rows of the West Stand at WHL one day - game was against Bournemouth, I think.

There was a break in the play for injury. Bloke behind me, who had been on at Nacer Chadli all afternoon, began to give him a coaching session.

He was telling him what he was doing wrong and said, "You need to come out wider, you're not playing to your strengths."

Chadli was standing listening to him, giving him direct eye contact...and he moved further out towards the by-line for the restart, as instructed, much to the amusement of the crowd around us.

A couple of times later in the half, at throw-ins, the bloke stood up again telling Chaldi where he should stand - both times (whether by coincidence or not) Chadli moved into the positions indicated by the fan.

Was very funny! :)
 
I was sitting in one of the front few rows of the West Stand at WHL one day - game was against Bournemouth, I think.

There was a break in the play for injury. Bloke behind me, who had been on at Nacer Chadli all afternoon, began to give him a coaching session.

He was telling him what he was doing wrong and said, "You need to come out wider, you're not playing to your strengths."

Chadli was standing listening to him, giving him direct eye contact...and he moved further out towards the by-line for the restart, as instructed, much to the amusement of the crowd around us.

A couple of times later in the half, at throw-ins, the bloke stood up again telling Chaldi where he should stand - both times (whether by coincidence or not) Chadli moved into the positions indicated by the fan.

Was very funny! :)

To be honest though, if that was during the time Timmeh was coach, Chadli probably appreciated having some more informed advice.
 
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