Muttley
Niko Kranjcar
Leciester City, then back to Celtic.
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Ange in or out?
- Thread starter Yiddo
- Start date
Leciester City, then back to Celtic.
He will be successful in a league where every mistake isn't punished.
I actually think it's that simple, his system works and is entertaining up to a certain ceiling. If our opposition was 25% -50% less clinical on punishing our mistakes, we would be ok. The PL is a step too far for the model.
Legohamster
Jack Jull
Apparently Levy was seen with Mopo last week..... friendly catch up?
Muttley
Niko Kranjcar
Legohamster
Jack Jull
Don't be silly.Don't tell me. On Joe Lewis's superyacht in the Caribbean.
EasyJet don't fly there
afsoc4life
Michael Carrick
The main thing that I see against him is his age and there are approx 13 clubs financially bigger than Spurs. Those 13 clubs mostly go after the elite. Is Ange elite no? That doesnt mean he is not a good manager.
thfcsteff
Tony Galvin
I think there are still some issues within the upper management which would need serious clarification/trust. He has always maintained a decent relationship with Levy FWIW. Further, and I'll be blunt, I don't trust our supporters right now to give him the time he might need. I can see the same waves of Bol-locks rolling hard the moment it starts to look less than amazing. In short - we might not deserve him yet!
thfcsteff
Tony Galvin
In your opinion.
glorygloryeze
Steffen Freund
I don't know, i think many of the fanbase have shown quite a lot of patience recently...
fernadez
Chris Armstrong
Think it's been a lot longer than a moment under the current manager. It's only really ramped up in the last couple of weeks. The AZ first leg followed by the Bournemouth game with a manager who is a potential replacement, with a similar time period spent in the job with worse resources seems to have been a watershed moment for a lot of people.
ricky2tricky4city
Dimitar Berbatov
I can see (and agree) that you wouldn't want Poch to suffer that kind of film flam BUT I think there is no other path to walk these days....such is life
Muttley
Niko Kranjcar
Yeah, that last bit almost reads like a little (lol, actually big) swipe at some fellow Spurs fans. I genuinely believe that Spurs fans have been very patient since about 2017 when we plateau'd. It has been false dawns since then on the pitch but not as a club. I've always felt like the big churn started about 2 years before Ange joined and he's then had those 2 years of significant investment, plus his own 2 years. Shouldn't we be through the forming, storming, norming phases and be in the performing one now?
Putting Ange to one side, I'm wondering what Levy is thinking. It's coming up to 6 years next month since the stadium opened and it's been 4 years since this squad started developing. I hope he believes in the new structure he built, even with a couple more personnel changes.
Surely now has to be the right time for us to try another manager. We can't surely be saying that we don't deserve an elite manager yet. Of course we do. The massive majority fans have been incredible in the last half a decade and I think the direction of travel by the club has been good and this is a blip. If it was a share on the stock market, most would load on at this low point. I would.
As for Ange, I always love the way you (and the other podcasters) have seen the positives in him. You have identified the right dispensations for his results as manager. Right now, I feel like he's almost like one of those decisions at work that we want the spreadsheet to answer for us. The data doesn't tell us the answer yet as it's not a complete data set. We want to continue to build more and more data as we want to do the right thing by him. Then a leader comes along and turns all that grey space into black and white in an instant. That leader just counts the amount of rows and knows that if we're analysing that much data then the answer is already staring us in the face. (A little insight into how my mind works)
As for Poch, I need more time to process whether he is the right fit. I struggle with objectivity on it as 90% of the picture in my head is the Spurs Poch from the last decade. He's had half a decade of personal development in other roles since and has potentially moved up another level. Some of my concerns may not even be relevant now. I loved the guy anyway, but always had some reservations about how far he could take us. They may actually be moot by now.
Perhaps we can negotiate a job swap with the US soccer team
Mikey10
Johnny Morrison
If he returns it’ll be after the next manager, I think.
Mauricio Pochettino: ‘Trump asked if US can win the World Cup’
The United States head coach tells Miguel Delaney why the country could be about to ‘dominate’ football ahead of co-hosting the 2026 tournament
www.independent.co.uk
Hotspur75
Michael Brown
Sure, I will agree with you on both counts, even though much of the upper management issues are hearsay to me. But ... there is never a perfect moment. Waiting until all the stars are aligned is not a strategy we should be pursuing, certainly not at this club.
Let's take a look at what could work now - listening to you on the pod makes me believe that you should be up for this. The major factor right now for me would be how easily we could adapt the heart of our team to Poch's favoured 4-2-3-1. Vicario; Spence, Romero, VDV, and Udogie would make for an excellent back four, with Kinsky, Danso, Porro, and Vuskovic as back-ups. Gray and Bergvall would be so complementary in a midfield two, could really gel if they play together regularly, and Gray is probably just as flexible tactically as Dier was in his early years. Sarr would be a natural back-up, given his huge potential. So that's six players and change, and the core of a Poch team right there, with, say, two or three years to polish and develop them into a real unit. We will have plenty of practicing hours at Hotspur Way anyway - another plus for a Poch return - with our chances of being in Europe next season fairly slim (even if we reach the final, I cannot see us beating Bilbao at their own ground). Those stars were never aligned before in the same way, post-Conte or post-Mourinho, when a Poch return would have been premature anyway. Now they might be.
Incidentally, this also confirms for me how much of the rebuild is still underway. I cannot see any of our current players in attack reach the same level as Kane, Alli, Son, and Eriksen - with the exception of Moore, and maybe Deki. Odobert has scored his first two goals against AZ, but he might turn into the next Ruel Fox for all we know. Solanke is a player we can so far only admire, but in a top team, he is an option for the bench at best.
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Bishop
Jimmy Neighbour
There was no difference between how he played at the latter end of the Poch era and how he played for Jose. Jose didn't break him, he was already broken.
Baleforce
Vinnie Samways
If anything. Jose got more out of him, than we had been seeing in a period of time before.
thfcsteff
Tony Galvin
Answers within the post my friend (great discussion BTW)...
You won't even get it in digital ink!!!!
Gotcha.
No mate, not excuses, facts.
The job description he came into included dealing with that situation. Mourinho and Conte were brought in for short-term deliveries and given no responsibilities to deal with any of that structure. Nuno? I think he was woefully unlucky and left hanging by everyone. Scarlett, meanwhile, has been around since Jose days, Dorrington has been injured until recently and is not a great fit pace-wise for the club right now, Donely has been excellently managed as seen with the Orient loan, Moore was thrown in too quickly for proper development but has been managed well given the emergencies. In fact, the way we've developed Donely and Moore in particular will benefit the next incoming hugely.
No mate, I disagree. He came into a side which had lost 52 goals in Berbatov and Keane, and was famously in the relegation zone. Harry was a desperate punt. Kelmsey told Levy to get Redknapp because he could get us out of it. He did. He made safe, short-term purchases. He got a few duds too. He nearly fudged Bale off. He was fun. But to say the football structure was ripped up when he came in? Only in the sense that Harry operates old-school and any of Levy's DOF stuff got parked because of it.
Jol certainly kick-started a lot for us. Arnesen, had he stuck around, would've been an excellent foil for Jol. He managed to implement some great younger players with experienced teachers on-field (Naybet, Davids...BTW, that might be one issue with the current system, that we didn't strategise enough to have one or two of those i.e. pay big for a Kimmich to teach teach teach!)...Poch speaks for himself - generational and we were blessed...Jose lied to get the gig (told Levy no rebuild was necessary as he could win with what was there)...Conte did superbly to get that CL spot, my big issue with him has always been that I felt he wouold walk if he felt unsupported, instead he stuck around despite feeling that and proceeded to c -unt out the entire club!
For me it is not black and white across the time. Of course he has to accept responsibility - he's the manager - and there are reasons. You call them excuses.
And I think if you've paid close attention to what I've been saying in recent weeks, I agree, it has become untenable. Where we disagree is why.
BTW, why is everyone so hung up on this 'second year' rubbish? He was asked a question. He replied. Until post-Frankfurt or a knock-out in the Europa, it remains a factual truth.
Again, I wish you'd back away from the 'how anyone can still be in his corner' rhetoric. I am in his corner as a human being who has been doing the very best he can with a deck which has been incredibly lop-sided for long periods of his tenure. Does it feel like he's at the end of his road with us? Put it this way, the Spurs satnav suggests that is exactly the case. But because I refuse (steadfastly in fact) to get into some of the IMO OTT rhetoric regarding him as a manager, does that mean I am 'in his corner'? Come on.
I'll add this as a closer. I watched the clips of our 'supporters' at Fulham, berating Ange and going off at Tel. I have n o time for it whatsoever, and frankly, given the bollox Postecoglu has been facing all season, I found hios reaction absolutely acceptable and (if anything) mellow. This perpetual idea that just because they're highly paid professionals they should accept being abused in public situations is IMO wrong. As much as I dislike Mourinho, I would never ever have abused him in person (all employees of ours get my benefit of doubt). My POV on abusing players in person has been noted before and has not changed.
You won't even get it in digital ink!!!!
Gotcha.
No mate, not excuses, facts.
The job description he came into included dealing with that situation. Mourinho and Conte were brought in for short-term deliveries and given no responsibilities to deal with any of that structure. Nuno? I think he was woefully unlucky and left hanging by everyone. Scarlett, meanwhile, has been around since Jose days, Dorrington has been injured until recently and is not a great fit pace-wise for the club right now, Donely has been excellently managed as seen with the Orient loan, Moore was thrown in too quickly for proper development but has been managed well given the emergencies. In fact, the way we've developed Donely and Moore in particular will benefit the next incoming hugely.
No mate, I disagree. He came into a side which had lost 52 goals in Berbatov and Keane, and was famously in the relegation zone. Harry was a desperate punt. Kelmsey told Levy to get Redknapp because he could get us out of it. He did. He made safe, short-term purchases. He got a few duds too. He nearly fudged Bale off. He was fun. But to say the football structure was ripped up when he came in? Only in the sense that Harry operates old-school and any of Levy's DOF stuff got parked because of it.
Jol certainly kick-started a lot for us. Arnesen, had he stuck around, would've been an excellent foil for Jol. He managed to implement some great younger players with experienced teachers on-field (Naybet, Davids...BTW, that might be one issue with the current system, that we didn't strategise enough to have one or two of those i.e. pay big for a Kimmich to teach teach teach!)...Poch speaks for himself - generational and we were blessed...Jose lied to get the gig (told Levy no rebuild was necessary as he could win with what was there)...Conte did superbly to get that CL spot, my big issue with him has always been that I felt he wouold walk if he felt unsupported, instead he stuck around despite feeling that and proceeded to c -unt out the entire club!
For me it is not black and white across the time. Of course he has to accept responsibility - he's the manager - and there are reasons. You call them excuses.
And I think if you've paid close attention to what I've been saying in recent weeks, I agree, it has become untenable. Where we disagree is why.
BTW, why is everyone so hung up on this 'second year' rubbish? He was asked a question. He replied. Until post-Frankfurt or a knock-out in the Europa, it remains a factual truth.
Again, I wish you'd back away from the 'how anyone can still be in his corner' rhetoric. I am in his corner as a human being who has been doing the very best he can with a deck which has been incredibly lop-sided for long periods of his tenure. Does it feel like he's at the end of his road with us? Put it this way, the Spurs satnav suggests that is exactly the case. But because I refuse (steadfastly in fact) to get into some of the IMO OTT rhetoric regarding him as a manager, does that mean I am 'in his corner'? Come on.
I'll add this as a closer. I watched the clips of our 'supporters' at Fulham, berating Ange and going off at Tel. I have n o time for it whatsoever, and frankly, given the bollox Postecoglu has been facing all season, I found hios reaction absolutely acceptable and (if anything) mellow. This perpetual idea that just because they're highly paid professionals they should accept being abused in public situations is IMO wrong. As much as I dislike Mourinho, I would never ever have abused him in person (all employees of ours get my benefit of doubt). My POV on abusing players in person has been noted before and has not changed.
thfcsteff
Tony Galvin
It is. Defiantly so.
You think we plateau'd in 2017? Wow, I don't know where to go with that one...
I cannot direct your opinion/perspective. I outlined my view of what he came into in another post.
I agree with you, and signs are that he does whioch is good.
We've had several 'elite managers', the question is in definition. Elite managers want instant elite players, y'know, 80 mil plus on 300k a week. Our set-up right now is to develop players who will become that. We have to hope that the next manager catches lightning in a bottle like Poch did with this group and some additions.
I think this is a really fair and interesting perspective for sure.
As for Poch, I need more time to process whether he is the right fit. I struggle with objectivity on it as 90% of the picture in my head is the Spurs Poch from the last decade. He's had half a decade of personal development in other roles since and has potentially moved up another level. Some of my concerns may not even be relevant now. I loved the guy anyway, but always had some reservations about how far he could take us. They may actually be moot by now.
Perhaps we can negotiate a job swap with the US soccer team
I loved him. I love him. I don't see him leaving the USMNT until 2026.
As always, great discussion.