The Moonlit Knight
Banned
I haven't heard one Spurs fan who claims that Redknapp is better than Rowe, Nicholson, Burkinshaw or even Venables for that matter.
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Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach
- Thread starter Bale
- Start date
I haven't heard one Spurs fan who claims that Redknapp is better than Rowe, Nicholson, Burkinshaw or even Venables for that matter.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Why do you keep isolating situations, the whole point being made by myself and billy is that it's a number of factors contributing together at the same time. We have lost our first choice CB pair, first choice LB, first choice CM pair, attacking CM and Striker for various reasons from the previous season, that's just a fact mate! And it's also a fact that only Santini had to deal with a simlar sitation in the last 20+ years (and probably ever tbh, as personnel changes much more frequently nowadays than it used to).
He was recently voted best manager in the PL era - have a look at the poll yourself, Moonlit
And Venables managed Tottenham in the PL for one season, the others none.
edit: Scratch that, Venables wasn't even manager in his last season with us.
Kingdawson
Banned
Was going to say that Venables didn't manage us in the PL.
Think its difficult to judge AVB too much at the moment, even though a number of our games are as boring as when George Graham was in charge.
His real problem is with Dempsey and Sigurdsson. We play 4-2-3-1 most of the time under AVB and the squad is set up (ie number of players in each position) for us to only really play 1 up top. However both of the two options which he has for the central role of the '3' in the 4-2-3-1 are playing brick at the moment. It means that we've essentially been playing 4-2-2-1 and there's a gaping whole between the two CMs and Defoe up top....and this gap becomes even bigger when we have Thudd alongside Sandro as whereas Dembele sometimes makes driving runs forwards, Thudd doesnt. This gap in the team is even more important at home when you're trying to break teams down - away from home, you can attack on the break and with pace, as we have out wide.
Until either of Dempsey of Siggy regain some form or we get someone in to replace them, we are bound to struggle. We dont really have any natural replacements to step into that role (unless you play a kid like Mason or Prtichard who, whilst being naturally suited to the position, have no experience) and we dont have enough CFs to play 4-4-2 regularly (and clearly not whilst Ade is out suspended).
I do think that AVB has a decent change of succeeding but he needs a bit of time to shape the squad (esp in this Siggy/Dempsey position), in midfield and wide cover. That said, he makes some bloody odd decisions such as with substitutes and the ridiculous rotation policy which he's adopted with Friedel/Lloris
His real problem is with Dempsey and Sigurdsson. We play 4-2-3-1 most of the time under AVB and the squad is set up (ie number of players in each position) for us to only really play 1 up top. However both of the two options which he has for the central role of the '3' in the 4-2-3-1 are playing brick at the moment. It means that we've essentially been playing 4-2-2-1 and there's a gaping whole between the two CMs and Defoe up top....and this gap becomes even bigger when we have Thudd alongside Sandro as whereas Dembele sometimes makes driving runs forwards, Thudd doesnt. This gap in the team is even more important at home when you're trying to break teams down - away from home, you can attack on the break and with pace, as we have out wide.
Until either of Dempsey of Siggy regain some form or we get someone in to replace them, we are bound to struggle. We dont really have any natural replacements to step into that role (unless you play a kid like Mason or Prtichard who, whilst being naturally suited to the position, have no experience) and we dont have enough CFs to play 4-4-2 regularly (and clearly not whilst Ade is out suspended).
I do think that AVB has a decent change of succeeding but he needs a bit of time to shape the squad (esp in this Siggy/Dempsey position), in midfield and wide cover. That said, he makes some bloody odd decisions such as with substitutes and the ridiculous rotation policy which he's adopted with Friedel/Lloris
I'm not really sure that it's the players' fault, but the way they're being instructed to play the postition...if that makes sense. Gylfi and Dempsey were both superb last season, isn't it strange that both of them suddenly drop form, waaaay below standards at the same time? And against Chelsea, you could see the "central effect", because Dempsey was good early on, playing on the left instead of Bale and Gylfi invisible in the central role, but when they switched positions, so did their involvement in the game. Gylfi probably had his best performance of the season out left, whilst Dempsey got lost in the middle.
But what's the problem? One thing I've noticed is the majority of our attacks are focused down the flanks, which is natural with our wingers. But very often you can see that Gylfi or Dempsey are in yards of space just outside the penalty area, but simply don't get the football. Another one is the fact we don't get enough passes on the floor, straight from our defenders or deep-lying midfielders, to the player in the hole. The way we operate is to often have Defoe come a little deeper to get the ball, and have the CF/attacking midfielder staying higher up the pitch instead. This would work much better with Adebayor and another striker, like the first 15 minutes at arsenal showed, but when we're playing with Defoe alone up top, this should be the other way around. With our VERY slow build up play at times, a good incisive pass that exploits the space between the oppositions defense and midfield, and gets Gylfi and/or Dempsey involved in play more, would really open things up IMO.
Or maybe they've jut been playing like brick and I refuse to see it!
Agree/Disagree?
Bishop
Nick Barmby
It isn't just the central position behind the striker causing problems but critically also the strikers we are able to choose from. Neither has a game complete enough to really revel in the role. Some will disagree and say Defoe is having a great season. I can not agree and see major faults. He doesn't have the touch, strength, awareness, intelligence or even reliable finishing to play the solo role. He will never fit the system no matter whom is played behind him.
Ade is more suited but he also offers as many negatives as he does positives for said role. His link and hold up play are of the required level yet he lacks incisiveness and a real goal scorer's instinct. Ade is simply far more likely to provide a positive contribution by creating than he is by scoring.
Until we fix these two positions along with the question of keeping possession and creativity in centre midfield the team and its performances will remain dysfunctional.
The Moonlit Knight
Banned
Actually I think I am generalising the situation.
My point is that all managers have to deal with injury problems, and it's not usually accepted as a valid excuse.
As for your take on missing first teamers, well that is your opinion and we don't yet know what AVB's opinion is. I keep reading on this forum about King for example. King wasn't a first teamer last year, he hardly played. Gallas was a first teamer and was out for half a season last year. Parker is being regarded as a first teamer but I don't believe that he'll be picked by AVB in front of Sandro. I'm not even sure that Kaboul will be an AVB first teamer either.
Right now I'd suggest that Dembele and Ekotto are missing from the first team. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Gallas/Vertonghen are the first choice centre back pairing even once Kaboul has returned from injury and that the midfield will be Lennon, Bale, Sandro, and Dembele. Then it will be Dempsey or Sigurdsson in a 5 man midfield or Ade and Defoe when playing two up top.
Bottom line? Injury problems haven't been that bad this year and certainly no worse than previous seasons, and injury problems are no excuse for not taking more points at home than we have done.
Bishop
Nick Barmby
Push and Run: We have taken fewer points at home this year for a remarkably simple reason.
The quality of the first 11 and squad has dropped considerably.
How much of the blame is attributable to AVB is up for debate. Did he want to keep VDV? Was he confident in Sig and Dempsey abilities? Did he think our striker situation was healthy? Those are the areas that deserve scrutiny.
The quality of the first 11 and squad has dropped considerably.
How much of the blame is attributable to AVB is up for debate. Did he want to keep VDV? Was he confident in Sig and Dempsey abilities? Did he think our striker situation was healthy? Those are the areas that deserve scrutiny.
The Moonlit Knight
Banned
Firstly it is now clear you think I am someone I am not.
Secondly I would say that Redknapp is our best Manager of the Premiership era. I am not even sure that's contestable? Jol would be the closest candidate, but Jol wasn't as successful as Redknapp. Who do you think our best Manager of the Premiership era is?
The Moonlit Knight
Banned
I still don't buy it personally. Even great teams will drop the odd clanger at home, but our performances at home have been very poor and with the players at our disposal I would still expect us to play well against the likes of Wigan, QPR, Norwich etc.
Bishop
Nick Barmby
You don't buy it?
Do you really think that a team that had Modric and VDV in it papering over obvious cracks is going to be matched by what we have now?
We had very real problems when VDV alone wasn't playing, we now lack also lack the playmaker that made us tick over the last few years.
I cannot fathom how you could expect any different.
Do you really think that a team that had Modric and VDV in it papering over obvious cracks is going to be matched by what we have now?
We had very real problems when VDV alone wasn't playing, we now lack also lack the playmaker that made us tick over the last few years.
I cannot fathom how you could expect any different.
You are him - or 'Spursfan1957' or 'On The Ball' or whoever the latest alias is - but that's besides the point and rather amusing, if anything.
Have a look at the poll thread - all the votes are public - i.e. you can view the posters
'Best' and 'Most Successful' are two separate aspects.
Redknapp had the best team in 2 decades and hardly ever managed to take us beyond the sum of our parts - at least not as consistently as a top manager would have, imv. Barrichello also won a few races for Ferrari back in their domination years.
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Are you possibly suggesting our current team isn't any weaker that last season?
We haven't even had our best midfielder available for the last 4 games either
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BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
But it's so obviously a problem with the fact the new style of play and thinking about the game hasn't clicked with the players yet, rather than any outright tactical mistakes or poor motivation from the manager.
I wish people would look at actually what the problems are, rather than saying 'well we dropped points to these teams we should be beating so obviously it isn't working with AVB'. Look at what he is trying to do. He is trying to get us to play a certain way and once it does click, we will be better for it.
Bishop
Nick Barmby
The very real fear is though that it will never click with the players we have available. Give him last seasons team and I would be very upbeat as I feel that team was very suited to playing this system (aside from the strikers). As I think for all the talk of a 'new system' we aren't setup that dissimilarly than last year, we have just the lost the key individuals that made it 'work' and have replaced them with (purposely left blank as that is what we have replaced them with).
Give him time and hopefully we can bring in some players to make it work, but whether he can win over the fanbase long enough to get that time is another question.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
I don't really agree with any of that, except that Sandro would be ahead of parker, but even then he'd be rotated with sandro keeping them both fresh IMO.
Again your isolating injuries and saying they're not so bad, but how about retirements and players being sold, like i've said the last couple of posts you have to include all factors, you can't just pick and choose certain areas that may backup your point. Unless you've completely missed my point in the opening post, you've missed out Modric and VDV as players missing from the previous seasons 1st team and seem to be thinking that Ade isn't part of the injury list? the 1st team last year was Brad, Walker, Kaboul, King (whenever he was fit), BAE, Lennon, Modric, Parker, Bale, VDV, Ade. AVB's had 4 players available from that team this season, surely that's not even debateable.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I think it can click. There's no reason why it can't. He's not looking for an impossible way of playing, just more structure, more of a focus on the collective rather than the individual, and probably more patience so that we can draw teams out. For instance so many times I've heard that we pass the ball around the defence too much and for too long, but I'm absolutely certain that in front of that, key movements are supposed to be taking place in order to allow us to pull teams apart. Right now it's probably not happening, especially at home where teams come to frustrate us. But once it clicks, once the players are confident making the transition from getting the ball forward at the right times in the right areas from defence, we will be so much better off for it.
We are set up in a sort of similar way. For instance we aren't pushing up with a high line every game, we are holding back a bit in order to give Bale and Lennon room to break into. But the big change is rather than have players with too much individual flair, we have players more suited to working towards a team ethic, particularly Siggy and Dempsey, who unsurprisingly have looked the worst out of all of them so far. But then they are also playing with a striker who also needs space to move into and is too easily nullified when he isn't given space. So it's hard for them. Last season, Modric and Rafa would be able to send Lennon and Bale away, beat a player or two themselves and open the game up. But Siggy and Dempsey are more likely to play a patient game, wait for the opportunity, play the right pass in space and they are probably better suited to playing in less direct, more patient teams that push a bit further up the pitch. Sig showed at Swansea how good he is.
So we are at that stage where our squad is hampered in a state of transition. AVB has been forced to play Defoe, even at home when teams will crowd him out. He's been forced to continue with the strategy of sitting a bit deeper defensively to get the best out of Bale and Lennon, because he didn't get enough goal scoring attacking midfielders that would function better higher up the pitch in wide positions. He didn't get Moutinho, who was clearly key to his gameplan. Because of that, he's had to continue with some things to get the best out of certain players, but that has meant that certain others haven't been played in a way that suits them. But I feel until he gets enough of the players to play the style of football he really wants to play, we will be in this state of flux. And in the meantime, he is still trying to implement ideas that could really ultimately help us in terms of how our players approach breaking down teams.
It's no where near easy. It's a tough job. It will take time. We will be inconsistent, but I see no reason why we can't eventually get to where we need to be with AVB as our boss.
a spur from swansea
Naybet
I'm not really sure that it's the players' fault, but the way they're being instructed to play the postition...if that makes sense. Gylfi and Dempsey were both superb last season, isn't it strange that both of them suddenly drop form, waaaay below standards at the same time? And against Chelsea, you could see the "central effect", because Dempsey was good early on, playing on the left instead of Bale and Gylfi invisible in the central role, but when they switched positions, so did their involvement in the game. Gylfi probably had his best performance of the season out left, whilst Dempsey got lost in the middle.
But what's the problem? One thing I've noticed is the majority of our attacks are focused down the flanks, which is natural with our wingers. But very often you can see that Gylfi or Dempsey are in yards of space just outside the penalty area, but simply don't get the football. Another one is the fact we don't get enough passes on the floor, straight from our defenders or deep-lying midfielders, to the player in the hole. The way we operate is to often have Defoe come a little deeper to get the ball, and have the CF/attacking midfielder staying higher up the pitch instead. This would work much better with Adebayor and another striker, like the first 15 minutes at arsenal showed, but when we're playing with Defoe alone up top, this should be the other way around. With our VERY slow build up play at times, a good incisive pass that exploits the space between the oppositions defense and midfield, and gets Gylfi and/or Dempsey involved in play more, would really open things up IMO.
Or maybe they've jut been playing like brick and I refuse to see it!
Agree/Disagree?
i agree with siggy analysis at least,i watched him a few times down here in swansea,where he always recieved the ball in space and always dictated the pace of the game,plus the goal's he scored he seemed to create the time for them. With swansea they harldy had any ball carriers who carry the ball,they like to stretch teams out creating the space in the middle where as bale,lennon,defoe,ade like to either drop deep or came in from the side along with two deep lying midfield players,it doesn't give him much space to get the ball.
Don't understand why we bought him and then buy dempsey whose an exact same player as siggy,but our transfer policy is very strange at the moment,4 top class keepers in our squad,why create a situation of unrest and confusion when we didn't to. How many times has AVB had to explain why he's picked either keeper every time before each game........cue Lazio thursday.