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American politics

scaramanga said:
...then this happens to the US:

povertystricken-youths-in-east-germany-1948-picture-id613500066
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The next logical step from appointing a communist as leader is that of becoming a communist state.

The photo is from East Germany and is a good example of extreme poverty - the only logical conclusion to communism.


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My point is that, from the current average political opinion in the UK and the US the likes of Sanders/Corbyn are so far from the natural position of the Centre Right, they become indistinguishable from all other extreme left positions.
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Even though the point is raised it will still be to the right of a lot of European socialist democracies
 
r-u-s-x said:
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The next logical step from appointing a communist as leader is that of becoming a communist state.

The photo is from East Germany and is a good example of extreme poverty - the only logical conclusion to communism.


=


My point is that, from the current average political opinion in the UK and the US the likes of Sanders/Corbyn are so far from the natural position of the Centre Right, they become indistinguishable from all other extreme left positions.
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Even though the point is raised it will still be to the right of a lot of European socialist democracies
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I have made no claims that Europeans know what they're doing when it comes to politics.
 
scaramanga said:
I have made no claims that Europeans know what they're doing when it comes to politics.
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are you missing the point?

"The next logical step from appointing a communist as leader is that of becoming a communist state. The photo is from East Germany and is a good example of extreme poverty - the only logical conclusion to communism."

There are many successful European socialist democracies that will be well to the left of Sanders, to say he would be a communist leader is laughable. And I will leave it there as the point is made and either you know your point was bollox and you keep digging because you cant be wrong or you will never know and its not worth arguing with crazy.
 
r-u-s-x said:
are you missing the point?

"The next logical step from appointing a communist as leader is that of becoming a communist state. The photo is from East Germany and is a good example of extreme poverty - the only logical conclusion to communism."

There are many successful European socialist democracies that will be well to the left of Sanders, to say he would be a communist leader is laughable. And I will leave it there as the point is made and either you know your point was bollox and you keep digging because you cant be wrong or you will never know and its not worth arguing with crazy.
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How many European countries have a top tax rate of 90%? (genuine question, I don't know of any).
How many European countries are planning to block external trade to prop up internal industry?
How many European countries have their major industries "controlled by the workers"?

On the whole, I don't believe that many European countries are departed about nuclear power and I don't think many are planning on bending over and lubing up for Iran either.

I'd say that there are some areas where Sanders goes significantly past even the ridiculous European level of socialism. Let's not forget that to the UK and US those countries are a long way left of our Overton Windows.
 
scaramanga said:
That wasn't quite my point. I certainly don't think opinions are correct because they're popular, or that the populace are capable of even the most simple decisions.

My point is that, from the current average political opinion in the UK and the US the likes of Sanders/Corbyn are so far from the natural position of the Centre Right, they become indistinguishable from all other extreme left positions.


From my post above - taking into account that whilst the aims of socialism and communism are marginally separated, the end result is pretty much the same in my eyes.


I just realised that I missed off the lack of personal freedom and the inability to better one's lot through hard work and talent.
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I think one reason quite a few people are unable (or unwilling) to distinguish socialism from communism is a purposeful spread of misinformation. It's essentially a smear campaign.

Read the first paragraph on communism on Wikipedia and the difference between that and socialism as presented by Sanders should be clear. When has Sanders suggested common ownership of the means of production, or the absence of social classes or money?

These words have meanings. False equivalency isn't useful.
 
scaramanga said:
How many European countries have a top tax rate of 90%? (genuine question, I don't know of any).
How many European countries are planning to block external trade to prop up internal industry?
How many European countries have their major industries "controlled by the workers"?

On the whole, I don't believe that many European countries are departed about nuclear power and I don't think many are planning on bending over and lubing up for Iran either.

I'd say that there are some areas where Sanders goes significantly past even the ridiculous European level of socialism. Let's not forget that to the UK and US those countries are a long way left of our Overton Windows.
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1- not a Sanders policy (also not communism)
2- not communism
3- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany
 

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braineclipse said:
I think one reason quite a few people are unable (or unwilling) to distinguish socialism from communism is a purposeful spread of misinformation. It's essentially a smear campaign.

Read the first paragraph on communism on Wikipedia and the difference between that and socialism as presented by Sanders should be clear. When has Sanders suggested common ownership of the means of production, or the absence of social classes or money?

These words have meanings. False equivalency isn't useful.
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I'm not that interested in the aims of either - both have grand ideas that do not translate into reality.

I'm interested in the end result. The end result of both systems is to take from the successful and give to the workshy (amongst others) on a far larger scale than we currently do. It is to reduce and/or remove the incentives for excellence, it is to take decisions out of the hands of those qualified to make them and hand them to those vastly unqualified.

We've seen socialism in the UK, were it not for the bravery and genius of Thatcher the end result would have very quickly been very similar to that in East Germany or Venezuela. In this case, the equivalence isn't all that false, but is incredibly useful. The public needs to be scared away from such ridiculous ideals because they sold in a manner that make them sound very attractive, yet ruin lives for generations.
 
r-u-s-x said:
1- not a Sanders policy (also not communism)
2- not communism
3- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany
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1 - https://thinkprogress.org/bernie-sa...lthiest-americans-at-90-percent-3b7d5881c64a/
2 - Free trade is a construct of capitalism - communism has the lack of it as an outcome rather than an aim
3 - I've discussed this before with people in the politics thread. The German attitude to unions is very clever. They're particularly good at making them feel as if they have a say when they really don't - quite often they're able to negotiate worse pay and/or conditions than we can in the UK by giving the unions "a voice" but are very careful not to give them any actual decision making power. I've tried a similar system in one of my factories before - it worked to make people think they have power that they actually don't, but I just found it too time consuming. I have neither the time nor inclination to listen to people whinge and the benefits were outweighed by my loss of time.

Edit:

Sorry, should have linked to the original piece in point 1 - bad form:
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/bernie-sanders-asks-if-american-economy-moral-n364541
 
scaramanga said:
1 - https://thinkprogress.org/bernie-sa...lthiest-americans-at-90-percent-3b7d5881c64a/
2 - Free trade is a construct of capitalism - communism has the lack of it as an outcome rather than an aim
3 - I've discussed this before with people in the politics thread. The German attitude to unions is very clever. They're particularly good at making them feel as if they have a say when they really don't - quite often they're able to negotiate worse pay and/or conditions than we can in the UK by giving the unions "a voice" but are very careful not to give them any actual decision making power. I've tried a similar system in one of my factories before - it worked to make people think they have power that they actually don't, but I just found it too time consuming. I have neither the time nor inclination to listen to people whinge and the benefits were outweighed by my loss of time.

Edit:

Sorry, should have linked to the original piece in point 1 - bad form:
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/bernie-sanders-asks-if-american-economy-moral-n364541
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1- 52% was the numbers he proposed - https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterj...moderate-on-top-income-tax-rate/#55b0f67a69f0
2- External trade or Free trade? Many European countries have restrictions on free trade, in fact Trump is taking about additional restrictions on free trade. Is he a communist?
3- I don't agree with your conclusions on Germany - regardless the policy I see sanders was pushing are workers owned co-operatives competing with private ownership is this what you are questioning regarding major industries "controlled by the workers"?
 
markysimmo said:
I see Khan opening his trap about Trump again

I can't wait for the day when the clam is outed for what he really is (Khan)
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One of my sisters worked at the Mayors office for both ken and Boris, told me both were as dodgy as could be, she has since left but keeps in touch with people who are still there and so far apparently Khan is cleaner then the previous two.

What do you have against him? I am not all that up to date on him but am worried by David Lammy talking about running for office, he is fudging awful.
 
scaramanga said:
I'm not that interested in the aims of either - both have grand ideas that do not translate into reality.

I'm interested in the end result. The end result of both systems is to take from the successful and give to the workshy (amongst others) on a far larger scale than we currently do. It is to reduce and/or remove the incentives for excellence, it is to take decisions out of the hands of those qualified to make them and hand them to those vastly unqualified.

We've seen socialism in the UK, were it not for the bravery and genius of Thatcher the end result would have very quickly been very similar to that in East Germany or Venezuela. In this case, the equivalence isn't all that false, but is incredibly useful. The public needs to be scared away from such ridiculous ideals because they sold in a manner that make them sound very attractive, yet ruin lives for generations.
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You don't think there are examples of Sanders style socialism working well?

I would use the last sentence of yours to describe out of control, unregulated capitalism.

It's just a complete over simplification to say that East Germany or Venezuela were socialist and didn't work out so socialism is doomed to fail. I'm sure if you thought about it for a while you could point at other reasons for the failing in East Germany...
 
How does one define a sandwich? Two pieces of bread surrounding a filling? A burger is a sandwich by that definition. A hot dog though is just one piece of bread sliced open for the sausage (or whatever the fudge that thing is) so technically no, not a sandwich. Two bread or not two bread that is the question.
 
Rorschach said:
How does one define a sandwich? Two pieces of bread surrounding a filling? A burger is a sandwich by that definition. A hot dog though is just one piece of bread sliced open for the sausage (or whatever the fudge that thing is) so technically no, not a sandwich. Two bread or not two bread that is the question.
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Maybe a pocket sandwich.
 
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