Acid Attacks

[the dza]

I don't want us to go down the yank route of prison labour, that will end up coupled with private prisons. You just create a prison economy and this is one of the reasons they have the highest prison populations in the world. I don't think it makes them safer.

We have too many people in prisons who shouldn't be there (non-violent drug offenders for one). Change the drug laws, then we'll have plenty of space to lock up qunts who chuck acid about. My gut reaction is still to shoot them though.

 

[scaramanga]

I don't want us to go down the yank route of prison labour, that will end up coupled with private prisons. You just create a prison economy and this is one of the reasons they have the highest prison populations in the world. I don't think it makes them safer.

We have too many people in prisons who shouldn't be there (non-violent drug offenders for one). Change the drug laws, then we'll have plenty of space to lock up qunts who chuck acid about. My gut reaction is still to shoot them though.

What do you consider non violent drug offenders? Those who break into houses to fund their habits?

 

[scaramanga]

I don't agree, and unless it's % of wealth it will have a greater impact the poor

Only those who break the law. I don't think considerations like that matter as much when a person chooses to take themselves out if society by committing crimes against others.

 

[the dza]

What do you consider non violent drug offenders? Those who break into houses to fund their habits?

Yeah. Under our current drug laws, then they have to be in prison for breaking into people's houses. But if laws were changed, and drug addiction was treated as a public health problem, then they don't break into houses etc. so don't end up in prison.

 

[scaramanga]

Yeah. Under our current drug laws, then they have to be in prison for breaking into people's houses. But if laws were changed, and drug addiction was treated as a public health problem, then they don't break into houses etc. so don't end up in prison.

I don't believe the use or possession of drugs should be a criminal offence. I don't think that would necessarily mean that none of those who currently are detrimental to society would stop being so.

 

[the dza]

I don't believe the use or possession of drugs should be a criminal offence. I don't think that would necessarily mean that none of those who currently are detrimental to society would stop being so.

Some people would get phucked up and do phucked up stuff and get nicked, of course. But I think if drugs laws were different and drug addiction was treated differently and not criminalised, a lot of the knock-on crimes would be lower too.

 

[scaramanga]

Some people would get phucked up and do phucked up stuff and get nicked, of course. But I think if drugs laws were different and drug addiction was treated differently and not criminalised, a lot of the knock-on crimes would be lower too.

I agree.

I do think crimes such as burglary should be heavily punished until we get to that point though.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

Only those who break the law. I don't think considerations like that matter as much when a person chooses to take themselves out if society by committing crimes against others.

But in reality means a two tier punishment by design rich And poor, can't see how that's desirable.

Each to their own I guess

 

[monkeybarry]

Surely working for your board in prison and seeing the fruit of your labour and learning a skill is rehabilitation in its own right?

Rehabilitation would be learning the lessons and not wanting to reoffend.
Not reoffending however is far more complicated than just personal will.
The conditions currently present in the UK system are not conducive to reducing the risk of reoffending. And much of that is down to previous privatisation of the system.

 

[monkeybarry]

Also I was not talking about as a blanket in the first instance but secondly how many juveniles then become repeat offenders?

If you take Juveniles out that equation for the purpose of say they are different incarceration then the % of adult crims who repeat goes up no?

in 2 years the attacks on staff (serious) have doubled also, so prison respect is hardly flying is it

Taking juveniles out changes nothing - three separate categories.
And yes attacks have increased, prison conditions have deteriorated, prison staff levels have fallen, waiting time for release has increased beyond the end of tarrifs and support services for reintegration into the community has fallen and become very poor quality after privatisation.

It is not a surprise people reoffend and have no respect for the system or the country.

 

[scaramanga]

But in reality means a two tier punishment by design rich And poor, can't see how that's desirable.

Each to their own I guess

The prison sentence is the punishment, they're just paying for their food/the roof over their heads. They'd have to pay that outside anyway where the situation is the same - those who have money can afford to do so more.

 

[Grays_1890]

Rehabilitation would be learning the lessons and not wanting to reoffend.
Not reoffending however is far more complicated than just personal will.
The conditions currently present in the UK system are not conducive to reducing the risk of reoffending. And much of that is down to previous privatisation of the system.

I dont agree for me

Rehabilitation includes learning a skill that allows you to go into work and not offend when you are released, not being sat in a room and given cotton wool approah by some two bit therapist.

 

[Grays_1890]

Taking juveniles out changes nothing - three separate categories.
And yes attacks have increased, prison conditions have deteriorated, prison staff levels have fallen, waiting time for release has increased beyond the end of tarrifs and support services for reintegration into the community has fallen and become very poor quality after privatisation.

It is not a surprise people reoffend and have no respect for the system or the country.

With total respect, I think making excuses for re offending is half the issue.

I am not some arrogant taco here but I manage to stay clear of prison and issues of the law because in 2017 the law is clear, my urge is not to get up in the morning and rob my neighbour or use information I have to harm someone or my colleague or rip my boss off.

I don't buy that the system is falling people that badly that they offend, there are some nasty bits of work in the world and to that goes back to the original point of Acid attacks, thats not someone trying to use crime to better themselves.

As for labour and privatisation, I dont want it to be private but I get up go to work to pay for my house and my meals, I also pay tax that goes towards prisons. By the same token why not have criminals work that pays and contributes to the prison services in the same way we do (tax) so that law abiding peoples money goes to other services that we can avail of which are currently being cut (police) which then makes the system more circular and fluid than it is?

 

[r-u-s-x]

what is the desired outcome of a prison service. For me it is keeping a country safe, fewer reconvictions and for some crimes punishment. I would then look around to see who is achieving these aims and what they are doing - based on this I would then try to replicate their ideas. I would be more inclined to the Norwegian model than the US model.

I guess this changes depending upon your desired outcome of the service, some may priorities Punishment etc.

 

[scaramanga]

what is the desired outcome of a prison service. For me it is keeping a country safe, fewer reconvictions and for some crimes punishment. I would then look around to see who is achieving these aims and what they are doing - based on this I would then try to replicate their ideas. I would be more inclined to the Norwegian model than the US model.

I guess this changes depending upon your desired outcome of the service, some may priorities Punishment etc.

My priorities are the same, although I'd add deterrent in with punishment.

We need to try and rehabilitate, that takes money - apparently more money than we're currently spending. We don't have the virtually endless income supply that Norway does and neither can we, as I illustrated in the politics thread, increase taxes significantly if we want to keep any prospect of fairness in the system. That means we must look for another way to pay for the rehabilitation of criminals. Making them pay for themselves in one way or another seems like a perfectly equitable system to me - certainly better than going to the hardworking public and asking them to pay instead.

That should hopefully lead to fewer reconvictions and therefore less cost, but it will take time.

Then we have the longer term side of prison. Some crimes have to have a long sentence, some people either cannot or will not be rehabilitated and need to be removed from the public to keep the rest of us safe. This will cost a lot of money - there's no other way around that. Again, we have to come up with a sustainable method of providing the money for this and I don't believe taxation can be the answer.

If there's a better solution than making prisoners pay then great, but I don't think there is.

 

[parklane1]

We have too many people in prisons who shouldn't be there (non-violent drug offenders for one). Change the drug laws, then we'll have plenty of space to lock up qunts who chuck acid about. My gut reaction is still to shoot them though.

The drug laws should have been changed years ago, you will still get those who use drugs doing crime but not at the same number. As for shooting those who throw acid i would do what i said earlier they should have their hands cut off.

The problem ( imo) with this country is there are to many bleeding heart social workers who keep giving excuses to those who keep breaking the laws. If we started getting serious with the scum/brick who make crime a living and treat them as the scum they are we will never stop it.

IF YOU CAN NOT DO THE TIME, DO NOT DO THE CRIME

And before any of those bleeding heart Liberals start saying folks are driven to crime because they have no other way of making a living, well there are lots of normal folk who struggle to pay bills but they do not take to crime to solve their problems.

 

[monkeybarry]

With total respect, I think making excuses for re offending is half the issue.

I am not some arrogant taco here but I manage to stay clear of prison and issues of the law because in 2017 the law is clear, my urge is not to get up in the morning and rob my neighbour or use information I have to harm someone or my colleague or rip my boss off.

I don't buy that the system is falling people that badly that they offend, there are some nasty bits of work in the world and to that goes back to the original point of Acid attacks, thats not someone trying to use crime to better themselves.

As for labour and privatisation, I dont want it to be private but I get up go to work to pay for my house and my meals, I also pay tax that goes towards prisons. By the same token why not have criminals work that pays and contributes to the prison services in the same way we do (tax) so that law abiding peoples money goes to other services that we can avail of which are currently being cut (police) which then makes the system more circular and fluid than it is?

With all due respect I work in justice system and have gained a decent understanding of the overall situation.

There are indeed some nasty pieces of work out there (and many more who are not out and Never will be).
But to make a blanket statement and not attempt to understand the reasons for reoffending is ignorant (I agree it's not arrogant) and will go no way towards creating improvement.

 

[braineclipse]

With total respect, I think making excuses for re offending is half the issue.

I am not some arrogant taco here but I manage to stay clear of prison and issues of the law because in 2017 the law is clear, my urge is not to get up in the morning and rob my neighbour or use information I have to harm someone or my colleague or rip my boss off.

I don't buy that the system is falling people that badly that they offend, there are some nasty bits of work in the world and to that goes back to the original point of Acid attacks, thats not someone trying to use crime to better themselves.

As for labour and privatisation, I dont want it to be private but I get up go to work to pay for my house and my meals, I also pay tax that goes towards prisons. By the same token why not have criminals work that pays and contributes to the prison services in the same way we do (tax) so that law abiding peoples money goes to other services that we can avail of which are currently being cut (police) which then makes the system more circular and fluid than it is?

How is it you ended up staying clear of prison? Why is it you didn't end up a nasty piece of work?

If there are factors in the system that are either protective or risk factors it's pretty accurate to describe it as the system falling those that offend or reoffend.

 

[Grays_1890]

With all due respect I work in justice system and have gained a decent understanding of the overall situation.

There are indeed some nasty pieces of work out there (and many more who are not out and Never will be).
But to make a blanket statement and not attempt to understand the reasons for reoffending is ignorant (I agree it's not arrogant) and will go no way towards creating improvement.

Why do people re offend? Society lets them down? Serious question no beef.

BTW I am not ignorant I just don't see the world the same as you do. I believe people make choices, bad choices but its them that makes the choices, thats not ignorance thats just how I view it, I have done bad things in life and paid the price, not in a criminal sense but in others and the price I paid was relative to the choice I made, I think the price slide along the same scale as the gravity of the mistake, I also say the level of responsibility remains the same to the person on the choice made.

This is not a blanket statement but I know from family working in the MET that a huge % of offenders or would be offenders have no respect for the system or the authority and know exactly what they are doing and saying be it a minor offence such as goading a police man/woman, not everyone is the same but in suburban London there is a massive problem with this according to my friend who is a pretty high ranking officer. To the point where the system lets down the police to the level that the uniformed cops avoid alot of would be issues due to fear.

My personal opinion on alot of issues is people blame society for their issues but don't realise that their actions make up society just as much as anyones, people let society down more than the other way

 

[Grays_1890]

How is it you ended up staying clear of prison? Why is it you didn't end up a nasty piece of work?

If there are factors in the system that are either protective or risk factors it's pretty accurate to describe it as the system falling those that offend or reoffend.

I listened to those in a level of authority and grafted to earn what I wanted, I didnt steal it or cut corners unlike a good percentage of my old school, I am not lording it up but we are talking facts, I was in good company in the way I did things, I would say I keep good company on here too. Some actively rebel against authority from a young age and know exactly what they are doing from a young age.

My dad was made redundant from a long term job and was on the dole for 5 years, he came from a rough up bringing and society supported him by being on the dole, was he proud of it no, but he did it and worked his way back into a job via college in his late 40s. Society supports those that WANT to be supported.

I resent paying tax to a prison system whilst we cut policing, massive beef with that and will always have, so to my original point, I work to pay my board, they should do the same in prison, consequence of the choices made in life like everyone else