4-4-2

[Raziel]

Chadli has 5 in 9 now. Would you classify him as a goalscorer?

I agree about experience, although I think showing a lot of faith to our younger less experienced players could pay dividends long term.

Challenges of management

- Yes, Chadli has 5 in 9, do I expect that ratio at end of season, no. To me, Chadli, Eriksen are 10 goal a season players (which is great), Lamela is the wildcard that could be a 15 goal a season player if he finds his feet (and he could be second goalscorer)
- I actually really like having Mason/Rose/Kane/Naughton in team, but to me, that really highlights the value a Naybet/Davids could have had on this team.

We need to learn our lessons

- AVB focused on possession without threat, similarly against all opposition
- TS focused on threat without control, similarly against all opposition
- I think Poch needs to use 2 up front to provide a more attacking focus against the bottom 12 team (where you have to get 3 points), and use the possession/control game more against top sides, while still figuring out a way to threaten them (Scum game was close, if we had taken advantage of a couple of the first half counter attacks, it would have been perfect)

 

[tynesidespur]

Disagree up to a point. As brought up in other threads I think there's been a positive trend in our attacking play this season and even yesterday when people are saying that we were somewhere between atrocious and decent we created quite a few chances. Even if true the "thus far" part of your statement is important. This is what Poch seems to believe in, give him time to make it work I say. This is particularly true when we're improving. To now just change it around would be rather strange.

The complaint about end product is a funny one. Hasn't this been the main complain about Lennon for seasons now. Now he's out of the team we want him back in and the reasoning is that others aren't providing the end product?

I could see the argument for playing Lennon when both Walker and Naughton was injured and Dier was off form. When Dier was on form though he was doing fairly consistent good work down the right hand side and I wouldn't agree. To me it seems that there's a space of about a game or two where we've been lacking width down the right from our fullback.

From my point of view I think 9 games was long enough to persist with that attacking trio. I agree there were promising signs but after 9 league games we need to see end product in terms of a goal output. Unfortunately if you take the QPR outlier out of the equation we were averaging a goal a game. Dier has started more games than not at full back and his forays forward have been full of endeavour but he doesn't have the forcefulness or quality of a specialist RB. Naughton brings the specialist skills defensively but I would still argue that his attacking output is questionable, as I would with Rose who appears to have the dynamism to get forward but lacks the quality final ball.

Re Pochettino I don't say change it around, I say keep going with the "philosophy", the pressing etc, and the basic shape of the team. I'm suggesting a tweak to try to get an improved output. Its a subtle tactical adjustment to try to improve the situation for the other attacking players. If you can't get width down one side due to lack of suitable personnel then you could easily get the full back to hold and stick in a winger who will stay wide. You get the same effect but in a slightly different way until you can recruit the players you need or they return from injury.

You're right that its probably a couple of games regarding the lack of width, but its been very noticeable in our home defeats to WBA & Saudi Sportswashing Machine and I thought after a fairly bright first half yesterday we descended into a bit of a disorganised rabble in the 2nd half which was due to us being congested in the centre of the park.

 

[braineclipse]

From my point of view I think 9 games was long enough to persist with that attacking trio. I agree there were promising signs but after 9 league games we need to see end product in terms of a goal output. Unfortunately if you take the QPR outlier out of the equation we were averaging a goal a game. Dier has started more games than not at full back and his forays forward have been full of endeavour but he doesn't have the forcefulness or quality of a specialist RB. Naughton brings the specialist skills defensively but I would still argue that his attacking output is questionable, as I would with Rose who appears to have the dynamism to get forward but lacks the quality final ball.

Re Pochettino I don't say change it around, I say keep going with the "philosophy", the pressing etc, and the basic shape of the team. I'm suggesting a tweak to try to get an improved output. Its a subtle tactical adjustment to try to improve the situation for the other attacking players. If you can't get width down one side due to lack of suitable personnel then you could easily get the full back to hold and stick in a winger who will stay wide. You get the same effect but in a slightly different way until you can recruit the players you need or they return from injury.

You're right that its probably a couple of games regarding the lack of width, but its been very noticeable in our home defeats to WBA & Saudi Sportswashing Machine and I thought after a fairly bright first half yesterday we descended into a bit of a disorganised rabble in the 2nd half which was due to us being congested in the centre of the park.

I disagree fundamentally with this and see no reason to think that either of us will change our minds.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I disagree fundamentally with this and see no reason to think that either of us will change our minds.

The insistence on playing a formation that has never suited our players is bewildering

4-2-3-1 does not suit 90% of the squad yet it's a system that apparently is better and more attacking.... Absolute dribble

It works at clubs with players who suit it but we dwould need to dispose of half the squad

 

[metalgear]

It's not 4231 vs 442... It's our wing backs pushing too far forward. A classic flat four will help have more bodies in defence.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It's not 4231 vs 442... It's our wing backs pushing too far forward. A classic flat four will help have more bodies in defence.

Wing backs are part of the system and these two don't suit it

The atfacking 3 combined offer less in and attack than Lloris does with a goal kick and they offer nothing defensively either

 

[ringo]

Milo -no problem with you locking the thread I started (given its overlap with the one you started -even if the point is slightly different) - but it would have been nice if you could have copied my opening post over into this thread? Otherwise I have to do it - thus wasting precious minutes out of my day... when I could be posting on other threads.

Anyway I've edited it (slightly) to fit this thread.

4-2-3-1 seems to be quite a demanding system in terms of having to have specialist/the right type of players in the right positions.
A good #10, which is a difficult position to play. Very fit full backs that can both defend and attack. Two defensive midfielders. Wide players who may be required to come inside, or go outside. A striker that can play up top their own. Attacking players who can play in tight spaces -as 4-2-3-1 is often accompanied by pressing tactics. etc

Setting aside the "it's not the system it's the players/attitude etc that matter" is there a formation that makes it easier to get results with average quality players or less specialised players.

For example, is 4-4-2 with average players, defend resolutely and then hope to get a few breakaways, a better overall strategy with mediocre players? Or 4-5-1 or something else.

Just interested to see what people thought.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

Challenges of management

- Yes, Chadli has 5 in 9, do I expect that ratio at end of season, no. To me, Chadli, Eriksen are 10 goal a season players (which is great), Lamela is the wildcard that could be a 15 goal a season player if he finds his feet (and he could be second goalscorer)
- I actually really like having Mason/Rose/Kane/Naughton in team, but to me, that really highlights the value a Naybet/Davids could have had on this team.

We need to learn our lessons

- AVB focused on possession without threat, similarly against all opposition
- TS focused on threat without control, similarly against all opposition
- I think Poch needs to use 2 up front to provide a more attacking focus against the bottom 12 team (where you have to get 3 points), and use the possession/control game more against top sides, while still figuring out a way to threaten them (Scum game was close, if we had taken advantage of a couple of the first half counter attacks, it would have been perfect)

It's stuff like this I don't get with Lamela. How has he showed potential to be a higher goal scorer than Eriksen or Chadli? Those two have actually scored league goals with good shooting and finishing.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

The insistence on playing a formation that has never suited our players is bewildering

4-2-3-1 does not suit 90% of the squad yet it's a system that apparently is better and more attacking.... Absolute dribbleIt works at clubs with players who suit it but we dwould need to dispose of half the squad

Yep. Been saying this since the AVB days.

We simply do not have the players for that kind of possession based system with the 4-2-3-1 formation. Our full-backs aren't good enough going forward to provide the width. Our CMs don't move the ball quickly enough to allow the front 3 to create space and we don't have a centre forward suited to playin up front alone (manybe Ade but he's badly badly off form).

edit: Although that being said, Poch may have seen enough in training to believe that he can coach these players into this system and that if he does, we'll be better off in the long run. I'm prepared to give him the time to do that if it is what he believes.

Not so much about the formation but the way we want to play, but take Capoue for example. On Sunday every time Fazio or Kaboul collected the ball he showed short and took it off them, so Poch obviously wants him to be our 'move starter'. To do that, you need to be either a Modric who takes one touch, looks up, pops the ball in, moves, takes it back etc etc or a Gerard who takes one touch then pings the ball 60 yards to someones feet. Capoue is neither which is why the crowd got constantly frustrated as he took 2, 3, 4, even 5 touches before waving his arms about because noone was showing for a pass.

 

[ringo]

Yep. Been saying this since the AVB days.

We simply do not have the players for that kind of possession based system with the 4-2-3-1 formation. Our full-backs aren't good enough going forward to provide the width. Our CMs don't move the ball quickly enough to allow the front 3 to create space and we don't have a centre forward suited to playin up front alone (manybe Ade but he's badly badly off form).

edit: Although that being said, Poch may have seen enough in training to believe that he can coach these players into this system and that if he does, we'll be better off in the long run. I'm prepared to give him the time to do that if it is what he believes.

Not so much about the formation but the way we want to play, but take Capoue for example. On Sunday every time Fazio or Kaboul collected the ball he showed short and took it off them, so Poch obviously wants him to be our 'move starter'. To do that, you need to be either a Modric who takes one touch, looks up, pops the ball in, moves, takes it back etc etc or a Gerard who takes one touch then pings the ball 60 yards to someones feet. Capoue is neither which is why the crowd got constantly frustrated as he took 2, 3, 4, even 5 touches before waving his arms about because noone was showing for a pass.

You'd think players would figure this out -if you don't move the ball quickly everyone gets closed down. I think some players who come from abroad just can't adapt to the extra pace of the game here, even after a while. Domestic players who can't handle the pace of the game get found out earlier and just don't progress to the Premier.

 

[billyiddo]

I think Capoue bares the brunt of the frustration in that specifc instance because the players in front of him arent making themselves available and he's the man with ball with no one to pass to so as you say takes more touches before inevitably passing it back to the defenders. the movement was so so poor on Sunday and it seemed no one wanted the ball.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

I think Capoue bares the brunt of the frustration in that specifc instance because the players in front of him arent making themselves available and he's the man with ball with no one to pass to so as you say takes more touches before inevitably passing it back to the defenders. the movement was so so poor on Sunday and it seemed no one wanted the ball.

There was an element of that, altough he needed to probe a little more I felt. Play a simple pass into midfield on your second touch (as there were passes available then, even if they were simple 10 yard balls) move, get it back, move it again. This creates movement and space in itself. I think if he had started moving the ball more quickly, even with very simple passes it may have started the ball rolling.

Although I do agree, none of our midfielders of forwards looked like they had anywhere near the confidence to take the ball when un-marked let alone when they had a man on their back. They need to do both.

 

[glasgowspur]

There was an element of that, altough he needed to probe a little more I felt. Play a simple pass into midfield on your second touch (as there were passes available then, even if they were simple 10 yard balls) move, get it back, move it again. This creates movement and space in itself. I think if he had started moving the ball more quickly, even with very simple passes it may have started the ball rolling.

Although I do agree, none of our midfielders of forwards looked like they had anywhere near the confidence to take the ball when un-marked let alone when they had a man on their back. They need to do both.

This what paulinho does, give move, take it back, give move, try and create an angle/space. For some reason we can't create that space in the middle of the park. To many of our players forward, less space. Two crosses from open play hit Danny rose standing dead centre of the goal on the edge of the 18 yard box. What system has a lb there?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Rorschach]

I think Capoue bares the brunt of the frustration in that specifc instance because the players in front of him arent making themselves available and he's the man with ball with no one to pass to so as you say takes more touches before inevitably passing it back to the defenders. the movement was so so poor on Sunday and it seemed no one wanted the ball.

Agree with this. Our movement was pretty shocking against Stoke and seems to be getting worse with each match. Back in pre-season we showed very promising signs with players in motion all over and quick one/two touch passing.It wasn't perfect but I thought it was a good sign of things to come. This fluidity has all but evaporated as far as I can see.

Maybe it is Mason who should be dropping deep and collecting but he seems to sit a bit higher up the pitch. Actually Capoue is not that bad a passer IMO, but I think the whole notion that we can transition from keeper to striker quickly is really a fallacy unless you go more direct. Once you play out from the back the other team has time to get back into their defensive shape and by then it's already too late.

 

[ringo]

There was an element of that, altough he needed to probe a little more I felt. Play a simple pass into midfield on your second touch (as there were passes available then, even if they were simple 10 yard balls) move, get it back, move it again. This creates movement and space in itself. I think if he had started moving the ball more quickly, even with very simple passes it may have started the ball rolling.

Although I do agree, none of our midfielders of forwards looked like they had anywhere near the confidence to take the ball when un-marked let alone when they had a man on their back. They need to do both.

This is what really good midfielders do - they shift the ball constantly, even if it is just pass and return. In doing that they move the other side around and at some point space opens up. Obviously it helps if the rest of the side are showing, making clever runs etc but even if they are not you can still force movement with short passes to a degree. To do that though, you have to play with your head up, don't spend minutes thinking about the pass, move the ball first time where possible, cover the ground. And even at this level it is surprising how few players even play with their head up most of the time -rather than occasionally.

Tom Carroll is a good example of a Spurs player who shifts the ball early and constantly. Unfortunately he is at Swansea.

Part of the problem is having clearly identified DMs in a 4-2-3-1 as I think some people have mentioned. They are not necessarily the best players to be picking the ball up and moving it around.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

This what paulinho does, give move, take it back, give move, try and create an angle/space. For some reason we can't create that space in the middle of the park. To many of our players forward, less space. Two crosses from open play hit Danny rose standing dead centre of the goal on the edge of the 18 yard box. What system has a lb there?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

He does it further up the pitch though. I wouldn't want someone who seems to consistantly lose the ball picking the ball up deep in our half.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Agree with this. Our movement was pretty shocking against Stoke and seems to be getting worse with each match. Back in pre-season we showed very promising signs with players in motion all over and quick one/two touch passing.It wasn't perfect but I thought it was a good sign of things to come. This fluidity has all but evaporated as far as I can see.

Maybe it is Mason who should be dropping deep and collecting but he seems to sit a bit higher up the pitch. Actually Capoue is not that bad a passer IMO, but I think the whole notion that we can transition from keeper to striker quickly is really a fallacy unless you go more direct. Once you play out from the back the other team has time to get back into their defensive shape and by then it's already too late.

It's a bit chicken and egg. Is the result of the non-movement Capoue dwelling on the ball because he can't see a pass or is Capoue dwelling on the ball restricting the space resulting in a lack of movement. Honeslty I think it's a bit of both, but I do think Capoue could have done more to influence it by just simply moving the ball simpler and more quickly. At this level of football a player shouldn't need to be un-marked for you to give them the ball. They should have confidence enough to take it with a man up their back which allows you to move for the return pass, which pulls opposition players out of postition etc etc etc you get my drift.....

It's not about how good a passer Capoue is, it's about how quickly he releases the ball.

This is what really good midfielders do - they shift the ball constantly, even if it is just pass and return. In doing that they move the other side around and at some point space opens up. Obviously it helps if the rest of the side are showing, making clever runs etc but even if they are not you can still force movement with short passes to a degree. To do that though, you have to play with your head up, don't spend minutes thinking about the pass, move the ball first time where possible, cover the ground. And even at this level it is surprising how few players even play with their head up most of the time -rather than occasionally.

Tom Carroll is a good example of a Spurs player who shifts the ball early and constantly. Unfortunately he is at Swansea.

Part of the problem is having clearly identified DMs in a 4-2-3-1 as I think some people have mentioned. They are not necessarily the best players to be picking the ball up and moving it around.

Tom Carroll is exactly the sort of player I'm talking about that needs to be collecting the ball in here. Again, maybe Poch thinks he can turn Capoue into that, but evidence suggests otherwise at the moment.

 

[glasgowspur]

True, and in my view that's why that type of player and paulinho don't work in English football.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[africanspurs]

The Lennon, The Bentaleb and the Wonky

Please please PLEEAASE coach stick with this type of formation!!!!!!

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Re: The Lennon, The Bentaleb and the Wonky

Well we played better, quicker and with more urgency. Thing with this formation is if one player is having an off day it would leave the defence totally exposed.

Pleased with the effort today, I am yet to be won over but when put that amount of effort in I could be.