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2022 World Cup... gonna ruin the European Season

greatwhitenorf said:
Messi would not have survived, let alone thrived, in the conditions Maradona faced at his peak. Maradona's physique - thick, stout, low centre of gravity - and mentality borne out of a racism-based persecution complex, let him endure the more tolerated brutal, physical punishment of his era. As skillfully blessed as Messi is - superior to Maradona in many ways - he could never have endured the relentless punishment Maradona suffered and recovered from (see Andoni Goikoetxea, Butcher of Bilbao) to resume performing at a peak level. Messi just doesn't have the physique for that.
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Perhaps, perhaps not. Messi has been on the receiving end of a lot of tackles, often just gotten back up again, rarely been injured.

It's unlikely that his career would have had the longevity if he played back then for sure. Maradona didn't either.

Also unknown is how Maradona would have dealt with the tougher aspects of the modern game. No doubt he would have dealt technically, but would he have been up for the work demanded to keep himself fit enough like modern footballers have to. His lifestyle been then combined with modern football wouldn't have worked out particularly well.

That's not to say he wouldn't have adapted. More just to reiterate why these comparisons over different times is very difficult.

Messi and Maradona, up there. Ranking the two is just speculation imo. Can be fun, but there's no real answer to be found.
 
braineclipse said:
Perhaps, perhaps not. Messi has been on the receiving end of a lot of tackles, often just gotten back up again, rarely been injured.

It's unlikely that his career would have had the longevity if he played back then for sure. Maradona didn't either.

Also unknown is how Maradona would have dealt with the tougher aspects of the modern game. No doubt he would have dealt technically, but would he have been up for the work demanded to keep himself fit enough like modern footballers have to. His lifestyle been then combined with modern football wouldn't have worked out particularly well.

That's not to say he wouldn't have adapted. More just to reiterate why these comparisons over different times is very difficult.

Messi and Maradona, up there. Ranking the two is just speculation imo. Can be fun, but there's no real answer to be found.
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Yep. It depends what you like. Even now, you get Ronaldo’s fans maintaining that he is the GOAT and nothing will change their minds. That’s absolutely fine, they’re entitled to their view. I hope someone makes a documentary about the rivalry someday, there probably already is one out there.

I’m convinced Argentina wouldn’t have won the World Cup had they not won the Copa America last year. Let’s hope we can win the FA Cup and it can be a springboard for many more trophies in the future.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Yep. It depends what you like. Even now, you get Ronaldo’s fans maintaining that he is the GOAT and nothing will change their minds. That’s absolutely fine, they’re entitled to their view. I hope someone makes a documentary about the rivalry someday, there probably already is one out there.

I’m convinced Argentina wouldn’t have won the World Cup had they not won the Copa America last year. Let’s hope we can win the FA Cup and it can be a springboard for many more trophies in the future.
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Can't stand Ronaldo but there's a valid argument to be made for him.

Messi all day long for me though. I saw all the greats from Maradona on but Messi for his brilliance and longevity seals it for me.

Would love a good documentary on the pair of them. We're very fortunate to have seen them both at their peak for over a decade.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Yep. It depends what you like. Even now, you get Ronaldo’s fans maintaining that he is the GOAT and nothing will change their minds. That’s absolutely fine, they’re entitled to their view. I hope someone makes a documentary about the rivalry someday, there probably already is one out there.

I’m convinced Argentina wouldn’t have won the World Cup had they not won the Copa America last year. Let’s hope we can win the FA Cup and it can be a springboard for many more trophies in the future.
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Yeah, Ronaldo fans can be wrong all they want.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Can't stand Ronaldo but there's a valid argument to be made for him.

Messi all day long for me though. I saw all the greats from Maradona on but Messi for his brilliance and longevity seals it for me.

Would love a good documentary on the pair of them. We're very fortunate to have seen them both at their peak for over a decade.
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Ronaldo’s achievements both individually and collectively as a team are hugely impressive. But they don’t stack up to Messi’s who has won everything there is to win with the exception of league titles in every major European league. People always used to say he couldn’t win with Argentina but he’s reached 6 major finals with them, lost two on pens and another 1-0 in extra time so it’s not like he wasn’t getting close before he eventually won something with them. His worst result with Argentina is losing at the last 16. He’s consistently reached finals. If you strip their accomplishments and just look at it from a skill level, Ronaldo is physically superior and is better in the air but that’s about it. Messi is the better dribbler, better passer, creates more and everything runs through him.
 
it's possible to appreciate both, there were seasons when Ronaldo was doing more for his team, seasons where Messi was, many periods in the last 15 years where both were in the shadow of teammate too

its a team game, no one wins matches on their own*

*other than Lamela obviously
 
I like this quote from Juan Roman Riquelme

“The one who plays this game the best is Iniesta: he knows exactly when to go forward and when to drop back. He picks the right moment to do everything: when to dribble, when to speed things up and when to slow things down. And I think that's the only thing that can't be taught or bought. You can learn how to shoot and how to control the ball, but being aware of everything that's happening out on the pitch - that's something you're either born with or you're not.”
 
Just heard on 5live that investigations are taking place about how celebs were granted access all areas ar the World Cup over the course of the tournament. Talk that organisers went OTT in giving people access for PR purposes but ended up with people like Salt BAE on the pitch lifting the world cup
 
Grays_1890 said:
Just heard on 5live that investigations are taking place about how celebs were granted access all areas ar the World Cup over the course of the tournament. Talk that organisers went OTT in giving people access for PR purposes but ended up with people like Salt BAE on the pitch lifting the world cup
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you think that's bad, that Jordan Henderson bloke actually got onto the pitch in full kit for England at one point
 
Baleforce said:
you think that's bad, that Jordan Henderson bloke actually got onto the pitch in full kit for England at one point
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Hahah TBH the only thing that bothers me about the Salt Bae thing is the price he charges to have salt poured from his scabby elbows.....but alas you are right about Hendo...
 
I think the guy is odd, he was clearly bothering Messi (who was probably more friendly last time they met ), but I think its a little churlish to complain about such people having access, it pro sport, that's the entertainment industry.

It's the same at the Super Bowl, the CL final, every Grand Prix.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Just heard on 5live that investigations are taking place about how celebs were granted access all areas ar the World Cup over the course of the tournament. Talk that organisers went OTT in giving people access for PR purposes but ended up with people like Salt BAE on the pitch lifting the world cup
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This seems important compared to the 10,000s of deaths, the bribing of officials and the general corruption...
 
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Jurgen the German said:
You can see how desperate Messi’s teammates were to help him win the World Cup. Whereas Ronaldo’s teammates seem to put up with him because he helps his teams win things. Don’t want to keep beating him when he’s down, but I just don’t think his teammates have the same warmth for him that Messi inspires. I’m a strong believer in going out on a high and Messi has every trophy now but the selfish part of me wants him to change his mind and continue playing for Argentina as he’s clearly still got the brain and the effectiveness to drag a team to finals, even if he’s lost a yard or two of pace.
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I think that is totally true. Cristiano has always been about Cristiano since he became a galactico, and it has rolled along just fine as long as he has been the superior player. It even affected him when Bale joined them (for a higher fee) and he had to share the spotlight. Messi on the other hand, while probably the "best" and "star" player at Barca, played the majority of his prime surrounded by quite a few players just as important as him. I think that will impact how you approach both the game and your teammates, and Cristiano is now a victim of himself where he probably hasn't made many allies but rather let himself sink down to meaningless battles about golden boots and other personal glory.

Addendum: I can't help but thinking if such internal politics could have contributed to Bale's obvious loss of love for the game?
 
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Grays_1890 said:
But surely that still makes it a non comparable unless your making a fairer comparison which would be could a Maradona even improve in modern conditions with better facilities more professional game and better conditions in terms of playing surfaces and ref protection and for me, as with many players, the answer is a resounding yes.

Or look the other way, would Messi be as effective in the 60s, 70s, 80s working in the same conditions with less advancements in player care etc?

The GK example you give would be based on what's been available to Kasper from his young age which as aided his level more than pure ability. If his Dad was playing today his level would be even higher than when he played and he would be the best in the world for the reasons mentioned

That's why it's still impossible to compare players on player
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I think it's also hard, if not impossible to rate "best" player, because in which regard? Some parameters are measureable (how fast you run and react, how high you jump and so on), but the so called best players over the years has rarely if ever had the best stats or physical traits, except maybe Cristiano for a period. The best players may not even be the best at a different team environment (this even goes for managers, as we know too well). It's always about the competition, whether you are better or they are worse. An F3 car of today would probably crush an F1 car of the 60's while being far from the best car available or even beating other F3 cars. It's also all about evolution and changing the game, Messi and Cristiano may never have been the players they became if not for players like Pele, Best, Cruijff, Maradona, Platini and so on setting new standards (Messi in particular, as Cruijff paved the way for using growth hormones on tiny, tiny players).
 
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