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2022 World Cup... gonna ruin the European Season

It was brick French pens that lost it, rather than Hugo not making saves imo.

Penalties should always be scored, it’s a free shot from 12 yards, a reasonably accurate, reasonably solidly hit shot, is unsavable.

I think that's harsh on the players. Even the very best miss penalties. When something happens 76% of the time I can't see how one can claim that it should happen always.

For these shootouts several of the players stepping up are not regular penalty takers. The pressure is absolutely immense. Players talk about not remembering anything from their shots, getting tunnel vision, weakness in their legs. It's an extreme pressure situation, in those circumstances what may seem like an easy task (reasonably accurate, reasonably solid) can become very difficult.
 
I think that's harsh on the players. Even the very best miss penalties. When something happens 76% of the time I can't see how one can claim that it should happen always.

For these shootouts several of the players stepping up are not regular penalty takers. The pressure is absolutely immense. Players talk about not remembering anything from their shots, getting tunnel vision, weakness in their legs. It's an extreme pressure situation, in those circumstances what may seem like an easy task (reasonably accurate, reasonably solid) can become very difficult.

It is, but it’s a mental failing rather than a technical one, which is why penalty shootouts are a valid (and brilliant) tie breaker.

My point was more about how keepers penalty save numbers should be judged. The situation is weighted so heavily in the takers favour that it’s illogical to blame a keeper for a shootout loss.
 
I’ve seen in two places now, one being the bbc, that Messi is the first player to score in every round of the World Cup. Didn’t Jairzinho do it in 1970 or have I missed something?

Can't remember what the exact record was or which England player it was but there was a lot of "youngest player to score in WC since records began".
Its like pele scoring in a wc final at 17 didn't happen, anything that happened before the internet isn't real.
 
It is, but it’s a mental failing rather than a technical one, which is why penalty shootouts are a valid (and brilliant) tie breaker.

My point was more about how keepers penalty save numbers should be judged. The situation is weighted so heavily in the takers favour that it’s illogical to blame a keeper for a shootout loss.

I agree that blaming the goalkeeper seems harsh as well.

Though some goalkeepers seem to be significantly better at those than others.
 
Very happy for Argentina and Messi. Great game, great way to win it. Messi coming through for Argentina at the biggest stage, at the last chance.

This is a flawed Argentina side. How many players in their starting 11 would start for France? Their weaknesses showed, but so did their strengths. Again bouncing back from losing a 2 goal lead. Really struggling towards the end of the 90, but the better side in extra time. Going into the shootout having been ahead again.

Great mentality, great system. Will all be legends now with Messi the deserved stand out.

Well said and agree with every word. Really pleased for Messi and Argentina. Always had a soft spot for them after my dad put £100 on them to win the WC in 1978, that’s £100 in 1978 money btw not adjusted for inflation! He bought a video recorder with the winnings. Nothing left to prove now for Messi. And if anyone honestly thought Ronaldo was still better than Messi, surely this tournament and the last few months in general have sealed the deal for Messi given how Ronaldo’s career is ending, meanwhile Messi was winning the World Cup and dragging his team through the tournament and being the best player. Dominated La Liga, dominated the CL and now won the World Cup. Who is truly the best player of all time is up for debate as it’s hard to compare Messi to players from different generations, but the Messi v Ronaldo debate is over.
 
Well said and agree with every word. Really pleased for Messi and Argentina. Always had a soft spot for them after my dad put £100 on them to win the WC in 1978, that’s £100 in 1978 money btw not adjusted for inflation! He bought a video recorder with the winnings. Nothing left to prove now for Messi. And if anyone honestly thought Ronaldo was still better than Messi, surely this tournament and the last few months in general have sealed the deal for Messi given how Ronaldo’s career is ending, meanwhile Messi was winning the World Cup and dragging his team through the tournament and being the best player. Dominated La Liga, dominated the CL and now won the World Cup. Who is truly the best player of all time is up for debate as it’s hard to compare Messi to players from different generations, but the Messi v Ronaldo debate is over.

Right back at you.

Been a real joy and privelege to watch Messi play football over these years (less of a joy against us). He's an utterly spectacular player. Different level even to some of the best players in history.

Now cements the place he already had as one of the very few, very best, right up there players. Comparisons between them become pointless, though I can understand that people try.

To see him lift this trophy, after all this time, to be embraced by Argentina, to drag a good team to greatness. To once more, now at 35, now for Argentina, dominate even up against the best.

For a moment it makes me forget about all the negatives around football and naively fall in love with this game all over again.

I wonder how long we'll have to wait for one more to step up to his level.
 
Right back at you.

Been a real joy and privelege to watch Messi play football over these years (less of a joy against us). He's an utterly spectacular player. Different level even to some of the best players in history.

Now cements the place he already had as one of the very few, very best, right up there players. Comparisons between them become pointless, though I can understand that people try.

To see him lift this trophy, after all this time, to be embraced by Argentina, to drag a good team to greatness. To once more, now at 35, now for Argentina, dominate even up against the best.

For a moment it makes me forget about all the negatives around football and naively fall in love with this game all over again.

I wonder how long we'll have to wait for one more to step up to his level.

Yep. Messi is fantastic to watch that I can’t fathom how any football fan wouldn’t love watching him like I do. Not just his goals but his range of passing, dribbling, first touch and control. To use a musical analogy, Messi is classical and Ronaldo is heavy metal. Backed them to win it before the tournament started as I felt the Copa América win would give them confidence and they would be playing for their lives to get over the line for Messi.

Also agree we won’t see another Messi for a while. Mbappe is a machine but he’s very much in the Ronaldo mould, think he even says he idolised him growing up which doesn’t surprise me as their personalities seem very similar, not as vain as Ronaldo but seems very roostersure of himself which isn’t a bad thing, I appreciate successful people are often single minded and confident but Messi seems the complete opposite of that. He’s just a guy who is phenomenal at football who just happens to be introverted and unostentatious.
 
Yep. Messi is fantastic to watch that I can’t fathom how any football fan wouldn’t love watching him like I do. Not just his goals but his range of passing, dribbling, first touch and control. To use a musical analogy, Messi is classical and Ronaldo is heavy metal. Backed them to win it before the tournament started as I felt the Copa América win would give them confidence and they would be playing for their lives to get over the line for Messi.

Also agree we won’t see another Messi for a while. Mbappe is a machine but he’s very much in the Ronaldo mould, think he even says he idolised him growing up which doesn’t surprise me as their personalities seem very similar, not as vain as Ronaldo but seems very roostersure of himself which isn’t a bad thing, I appreciate successful people are often single minded and confident but Messi seems the complete opposite of that. He’s just a guy who is phenomenal at football who just happens to be introverted and unostentatious.
Or Holyfield/Tyson. I would also put Gareth Bale in the heavy metal category. As extremely athletic and impressive as they were in their primes, athleticism will fade faster than technique and neither can touch Messi in that regard. Look at Modric too. I think comparing such types of players has to be done on an "importance" level and not a "how good they are" level, diluted by stats. Messi has always been important for making stuff happen, Cristiano not so much. IMO.
 
Or Holyfield/Tyson. I would also put Gareth Bale in the heavy metal category. As extremely athletic and impressive as they were in their primes, athleticism will fade faster than technique and neither can touch Messi in that regard. Look at Modric too. I think comparing such types of players has to be done on an "importance" level and not a "how good they are" level, diluted by stats. Messi has always been important for making stuff happen, Cristiano not so much. IMO.

Completely agree re Bale and Modric. Ronaldo clearly works tirelessly to keep in remarkable shape but he relies on physical attributes more than Messi who may not be as quick as he once was, but his brain hasn’t slowed down. Messi isn’t just a brilliant goalscorer and dribbler, he’s one of the best passers and playmakers the game has ever seen. The level of consistency both have shown is ridiculous. I actually have a lot of respect for Ronaldo off the pitch but can’t stand the way he carries on when he’s on the pitch and how staged everything he does is with that silly celebration he does and the way he doesn’t celebrate his teammates goals. People get annoyed with Gary Lineker and say he goes overboard with his praise of Messi but if you can’t appreciate greatness to that degree then who can you wax lyrical about?
 
Thought it was a pleasant change to see a tournament not tainted with a load of hooliganism. Amazing what having strict laws and a ban on alcohol can do…..

And no drugs too. Agree it was a belter of a tournament and women also said they felt safe at this World Cup which shouldn’t be an issue anyway but sadly it’s not the world we live in. Shouldn’t be forgotten how corrupt FIFA are and how backwards Qatar is when it comes to human rights and their attitude to gay people but I had low expectations for this tournament purely from the football side of it but it was arguably the best World Cup I’ve ever seen. Russia 2018 was also a brilliant tournament. Maybe that’s the secret, awarding the tournament to countries with questionable records of human rights. Give the next one to China or Saudi Arabia (joking).
 
Or Holyfield/Tyson. I would also put Gareth Bale in the heavy metal category. As extremely athletic and impressive as they were in their primes, athleticism will fade faster than technique and neither can touch Messi in that regard. Look at Modric too. I think comparing such types of players has to be done on an "importance" level and not a "how good they are" level, diluted by stats. Messi has always been important for making stuff happen, Cristiano not so much. IMO.
I was going to bring Modric up. In some respects, he's the closest I've seen to Messi -- but only in some respects. He must have, what, half of Messi's toolkit? He's certainly never been a great goalscorer, for example. Despite that "limited" skillset, he's still one of the best in the world.

While I'm firmly on "Team Messi" in the debate, however, I'm not going to count CRonaldo's reliance on athleticism against him. Goals win you matches, and he was a truly great goalscorer for about 15 years. Bale and the original Ronaldo are never going to be mentioned in the same breath as they had nothing like that longevity.

Look at Sunday's match. The first half was all about Messi (and to a lesser extent his teammates) controlling a game. Then Mbappe turned it on its head in the last 10 minutes.
 
1982 will always be THE World Cup for me. I don’t know if it’s online anywhere but @Baleforce you should try to see Italy v Argentina from the second round. I think you would enjoy it!
1982 was the first WC I watched while knowing what was going on. Can't remember much, and while I had read about that 17 year old promising kid from the slums who couldn't play at home in the 1978 WC, can't say he made a huge impression on a young me. One thing I remember though was the brazilian Eder, whose shot got harder every time we talked about it.
 
Completely agree re Bale and Modric. Ronaldo clearly works tirelessly to keep in remarkable shape but he relies on physical attributes more than Messi who may not be as quick as he once was, but his brain hasn’t slowed down. Messi isn’t just a brilliant goalscorer and dribbler, he’s one of the best passers and playmakers the game has ever seen. The level of consistency both have shown is ridiculous. I actually have a lot of respect for Ronaldo off the pitch but can’t stand the way he carries on when he’s on the pitch and how staged everything he does is with that silly celebration he does and the way he doesn’t celebrate his teammates goals. People get annoyed with Gary Lineker and say he goes overboard with his praise of Messi but if you can’t appreciate greatness to that degree then who can you wax lyrical about?
I have great respect for Cristiano too, and I liked him as a younger player. There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance though, and crossing that line is rarely a good thing. Aforementioned Tyson is a prime example of just that, not to mention Maradona himself. I will not shoot down how non-sock Diego dragged Napoli into significance, but his opponents weren't of the same quality and he was not that good over such a long time as Messi, much due to off-pitch turmoil and a small brain. And there have been players with greater skill than him - albeit over a shorter timespan (Ronaldinho and even the real Ronaldo). His importance for the teams he played on cannot be underestimated though, even symbolic. I also hate how every single time there's a montage of him, the handball goal is shown as greatness. Talk about glorification gone wrong, that one of the two goals he's most known for was blatant cheating and he was even proud of it. Such a player can never be the greatest for me. Lionel Messi, hands down.

Worth mentioning that almost the entire country of Italy demanded that Maradona lost against them in the WC since he lived and played there, and look at how things went for him afterwards. Probably safer to be a Messi in France I'd reckon.
 
I have great respect for Cristiano too, and I liked him as a younger player. There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance though, and crossing that line is rarely a good thing. Aforementioned Tyson is a prime example of just that, not to mention Maradona himself. I will not shoot down how non-sock Diego dragged Napoli into significance, but his opponents weren't of the same quality and he was not that good over such a long time as Messi, much due to off-pitch turmoil and a small brain. And there have been players with greater skill than him - albeit over a shorter timespan (Ronaldinho and even the real Ronaldo). His importance for the teams he played on cannot be underestimated though, even symbolic. I also hate how every single time there's a montage of him, the handball goal is shown as greatness. Talk about glorification gone wrong, that one of the two goals he's most known for was blatant cheating and he was even proud of it. Such a player can never be the greatest for me. Lionel Messi, hands down.

Worth mentioning that almost the entire country of Italy demanded that Maradona lost against them in the WC since he lived and played there, and look at how things went for him afterwards. Probably safer to be a Messi in France I'd reckon.


Truly great sportspeople know how to win and lose with equal grace, that is why imho the two greatest sportsmen are pele and nicklaus.
 
I have great respect for Cristiano too, and I liked him as a younger player. There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance though, and crossing that line is rarely a good thing. Aforementioned Tyson is a prime example of just that, not to mention Maradona himself. I will not shoot down how non-sock Diego dragged Napoli into significance, but his opponents weren't of the same quality and he was not that good over such a long time as Messi, much due to off-pitch turmoil and a small brain. And there have been players with greater skill than him - albeit over a shorter timespan (Ronaldinho and even the real Ronaldo). His importance for the teams he played on cannot be underestimated though, even symbolic. I also hate how every single time there's a montage of him, the handball goal is shown as greatness. Talk about glorification gone wrong, that one of the two goals he's most known for was blatant cheating and he was even proud of it. Such a player can never be the greatest for me. Lionel Messi, hands down.

Worth mentioning that almost the entire country of Italy demanded that Maradona lost against them in the WC since he lived and played there, and look at how things went for him afterwards. Probably safer to be a Messi in France I'd reckon.

Decent post sir

Ronaldo MK2 is obviously an outstanding talent but the "all look at me" act and recent actions detract from his greatness, he is a pillock now.

I definitely it hard to compare people from the ages for a number of the reasons you mention and there are so many reasons for and against everyone. My Grandad, Spurs fan swore Best was the Best he ever saw and he saw most of the comparables from the 60s -80s but his shorter self destructive life added to the fact he played for NI means he won't ever be mentioned in the same sentences.

Maradona at Napoli taken a provincial team to the league title against an emerging great like AC Milan...Two time CL winners in the same span and very good star packed Juve etc...hard to compare in my opinion to playing for Real and Barce that Ronaldo and Messi played for in a two team league, for already established super powers....but again the short time span works against him.

It's what makes calling the greatest impossible for me
 
Decent post sir

Ronaldo MK2 is obviously an outstanding talent but the "all look at me" act and recent actions detract from his greatness, he is a pillock now.

I definitely it hard to compare people from the ages for a number of the reasons you mention and there are so many reasons for and against everyone. My Grandad, Spurs fan swore Best was the Best he ever saw and he saw most of the comparables from the 60s -80s but his shorter self destructive life added to the fact he played for NI means he won't ever be mentioned in the same sentences.

Maradona at Napoli taken a provincial team to the league title against an emerging great like AC Milan...Two time CL winners in the same span and very good star packed Juve etc...hard to compare in my opinion to playing for Real and Barce that Ronaldo and Messi played for in a two team league, for already established super powers....but again the short time span works against him.

It's what makes calling the greatest impossible for me

Your grandad was right about Best he had everything, and in those days every opposing player he played against used to kick brick out of him but he just got up and and smiled at them. I played against him in the youth sides ( City and Utd) and he was on another planet to the rest of us. A local paper ( MEN) took a photo of him after one game in his pants and his whole body was covered in bruises from all the kicks and tackles he took.

And as you say calling a player the greatest of all time is difficult, for a start in todays game players do not have to worry about taking kicks from the opposite side and do not have to play on pitches that look like bombsites after bad weather. They are great players in all eras but compering who was/is the best is a guessing game and i suppose depends on what eras you have seen in real life.
 
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