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*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v AFC Bournemouth ***

Bedfordspurs said:
A great example of why too many touches doesnt help was when Maddison lost it for their shot that hit the post
He took 7 touches and lost it (he had passes but didn’t take any)
They took 6 to hit the post and move the ball from their half
Look at the penalty and no play took more than two touches other than Kepa on son
Click to expand...

This was indeed the opposite end of the risk-reward spectrum. Our move to get the penalty was indeed great. However, too often the attempt to do one-touch passing is at the wrong place and time...like in our own box ffs...
 
Bedfordspurs said:
With poor technique
Really poor
These are not poor players and shouldn’t need coaching on how to pass a ball
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Sorry but this point is nonsense imv 'Passing' at this level is more than an individual being able to pass a ball - it's about shape, structure and a whole bunch of other things that the manager is primarily responsible for putting in place and coaching on the training field is a fundamental part of that.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
A great example of why too many touches doesnt help was when Maddison lost it for their shot that hit the post
He took 7 touches and lost it (he had passes but didn’t take any)
They took 6 to hit the post and move the ball from their half
Look at the penalty and no play took more than two touches other than Kepa on son
Click to expand...

This is Something that has been mentioned quite a bit on the last few pages, there's risky passes that could be made but we don't have the confidence to try it. So we take too many touches, get pressed lose the ball and are caught out of position.
Runs are being made but they are not the obvious ones or safe ones and rather than risk giving the ball away we recycle it.
Without weeding out the players who have lost confidence and replacing them I don't see a way out of it, and I don't think our squad is deep enough for that.
 
billyiddo said:
Sorry but this point is nonsense imv 'Passing' at this level is more than an individual being able to pass a ball - it's about shape, structure and a whole bunch of other things that the manager is primarily responsible for putting in place and coaching on the training field is a fundamental part of that.
Click to expand...
Porros pass for their goal was lazy
Johnson was on the right place and so was Porro
The shape was right, the execution poor
 
glasgowspur said:
This is Something that has been mentioned quite a bit on the last few pages, there's risky passes that could be made but we don't have the confidence to try it. So we take too many touches, get pressed lose the ball and are caught out of position.
Runs are being made but they are not the obvious ones or safe ones and rather than risk giving the ball away we recycle it.
Without weeding out the players who have lost confidence and replacing them I don't see a way out of it, and I don't think our squad is deep enough for that.
Click to expand...
That’s on Ange to fix
If you watch that play back Maddison had several passes he could make and instead … lost it
They made several quick passes and were unlucky
What they also did was move off the ball
Our players seem to wait for the ball
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Porros pass for their goal was lazy
Johnson was on the right place and so was Porro
The shape was right, the execution poor
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Porro's passing choice was indeed poor. But is that not an example of a player who has been flogged to death showing tiredness of mind? I'd imagine earlier in the season he'd have passed better.
The bigger issue for me was the poor shape that meant when we lost possession from Porro trying to lay a key attacking pass, we straight away were vulnerable...and often many times again and again
 
glasgowspur said:
This is Something that has been mentioned quite a bit on the last few pages, there's risky passes that could be made but we don't have the confidence to try it. So we take too many touches, get pressed lose the ball and are caught out of position.
Runs are being made but they are not the obvious ones or safe ones and rather than risk giving the ball away we recycle it.
Without weeding out the players who have lost confidence and replacing them I don't see a way out of it, and I don't think our squad is deep enough for that.
Click to expand...
There are quite a few times when watching where you can see a more progressive pass that can be made (heck, a player has even moved into a position to create that option) BUT we go sideways or backwards...just recycle again and again. Our movement could be even better, no doubt, but the less we take a trickier, smarter pass the belief it might happen wains. (From a players pov as well)
 
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Bedfordspurs said:
That’s on Ange to fix
If you watch that play back Maddison had several passes he could make and instead … lost it
They made several quick passes and were unlucky
What they also did was move off the ball
Our players seem to wait for the ball
Click to expand...
Ultimately as the manager it's on him to fix or adapt.
The difference between say Bergvall and Maddison or Bentancur is stark, older players know the risks, it creeps into them.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
That’s on Ange to fix
If you watch that play back Maddison had several passes he could make and instead … lost it
They made several quick passes and were unlucky
What they also did was move off the ball
Our players seem to wait for the ball
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right about how often we don't seem to move well off the ball. Confidence i guess, as we know they can do it
 
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billyiddo said:
That's what the system is supposed to provide - we aren't supposed to have individual freedom like is being suggested - not sure if it was direct from Ange or someone who worked with him but when describing Ange-ball the idea is that when it works it is supposed to look fluid but the reality is everything is preplanned/drilled in to the players, which is no different to Conte and many others
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Ange said it himself in one of his early interviews. He said if it's done well it looks like the players have lots of freedom but it's actually the opposite.

The funny thing is the guy who gave freedom to players was Mourinho who pretty much just leaves it to his creative players to work it out while he concentrates on defensive shape and reactive planning.
 
Bishop said:
Ange said it himself in one of his early interviews. He said if it's done well it looks like the players have lots of freedom but it's actually the opposite.

The funny thing is the guy who gave freedom to players was Mourinho who pretty much just leaves it to his creative players to work it out while he concentrates on defensive shape and reactive planning.
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I don't particularly want our players to have freedom, so I'm not knocking that - it's either the implementation or suitability of the setup that's the problem. Nearly two seasons in and the players looks as far away from playing in a defined style as they did at the beginning - that's the problem
 
Its multi-faceted isn't it?

- The press is all game and intense, though not particularly coordinated. (a big bug bear of mine). So players have less energy for movement when we do get possession.

- Players like Poro, Romero, Oderbert etc have been out the side and can be a bit rusty with passes and just feeling settled and composed.

- Unlike say City, we always look to break quickly. Other sides will often circulate the ball more. And we are not as effective as other teams such as liverpool or bournmouth, who have better stronger attackers for fast breaks. They transition the ball quickly forward better than we can.

- We commit so many man forward, breaking quickly and losing the ball is high high risk. It also tires us out as players yoyo back an forth up the pitch.


There are games such as against Bournmouth, where the opposition are really effective tracking our runs and pressing high to stop passes, were we should adjust. We should show more cunning, and make an extra pass before breaking.

I don't think you can perfectly coordinate breaks. It is quite random where the space will be.
 
Muttley said:
Yeah, those disciplinary examples add a slightly different context to where my thinking was.

I wrote the other day that Ange must have had some super intelligent players at his different clubs. He couldn't have had players with as much natural talent in the leagues he managed before, even the Australia national team. The natural assumption is that PL players should have both natural ability and football intelligence and that is why I think his defensive tactical system comes undone. He wouldn't have experienced it before in the speed and accuracy that the opposition exploits his team when they lose their shape. Then coming back to the point we were discussing, perhaps a few of ours do lack a bit of football intelligence that Galagher would have brought into the setup, not to mention the leadership. I've often spoken about Sarr playing with his heart, not his head in key moments. What I would say though is that if there is a lack of natural intelligence, you have to nurture it like crazy. I think Sarr could be way better at that side of his game with better coaching.
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Interesting discussion.
I think the major issues affecting us are down to the physical output versus the injuries versus the expectations equalling pressure that a young side has not got the experience to deal with. And let's face it, we have three seniors who know what that pressure really is. Romero, Sonny, Davies. Maddison is a senior, but he has never been part of a 'clutch' side that wins massive games and knows perpetual pressure either through a tournament or expectation. It is why the first three are so important IMO. I think we have missed Davies experience personally, Sonny has sadly been flogged within an inch of his game-life, and Romero has either been injured or somewhat mentally absent for much of the season. I think when those pillars aren't firing smoothly, the 'rough idle' spreads and players start to misplace simple passes/make irrational decisions.

In that regard, Archie Gray is even more phenomenal, and Bergvall's learning curve since November immense. Honestly, they are the two players I personally trust the most (Vic too, Solanke is not far behind and if Deki were fit, him too, followed by Spence). I actually don't trust any of our other players right now, albeit for most of them I believe it is due to temporary attrition of said-injuries/fatigue/expectations.

Regarding Sarr, I think he has really suffered playing alongside inconsistent and (frankly) untrustworthy teammates. Maddison cannot be relied upon, Biss we know about, and Bentancur also appears to have an inabiity to keep it in the pocket when the brick's hitting the fan. So whilst I think Sarr can absolutely be better with continued coaching, I think the main issue in general is that the team is not tight-knit/cohesive enough and has too many current untrustworthy players.
 
billyiddo said:
Sorry but this point is nonsense imv 'Passing' at this level is more than an individual being able to pass a ball - it's about shape, structure and a whole bunch of other things that the manager is primarily responsible for putting in place and coaching on the training field is a fundamental part of that.
Click to expand...

I think this is true, absolutely, and it is also true that players should be able to weight simple passes properly, and pass to the appropriate side of their teammate in given situations. If you can't do that (whether it is temporary psychology or being brick - I'd wager it is the former as we have decent technical proficiency) then the shape and structure you might train/prepare for falls apart within seconds.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
There are quite a few times when watching where you can see a more progressive pass that can be made (heck, a player has even moved into a position to create that option) BUT we go sideways or backwards...just recycle again and again. Our movement could be even better, no doubt, but the less we take a trickier, smarter pass the belief it might happen wains. (From a players pov as well)
Click to expand...

Absolutely.
I think that frustrates Postecoglu as he wants risk/reward football, but what he often gets is a callow semi-version which leaves us nowhere. I think it goes back to a lack of courage from some on the ball and a lack of trust overall with some players, both in themselves and sometimes a teammate.
That Maddison passage which has been quoted here from Sunday's game infuriated me. I have to be very very careful I don't waltz into full-on 'confirmation bias' with regards to him, because I freely admit I am tired of the player and want him shuffled this summer!!!!
 
thfcsteff said:
Interesting discussion.
I think the major issues affecting us are down to the physical output versus the injuries versus the expectations equalling pressure that a young side has not got the experience to deal with. And let's face it, we have three seniors who know what that pressure really is. Romero, Sonny, Davies. Maddison is a senior, but he has never been part of a 'clutch' side that wins massive games and knows perpetual pressure either through a tournament or expectation. It is why the first three are so important IMO. I think we have missed Davies experience personally, Sonny has sadly been flogged within an inch of his game-life, and Romero has either been injured or somewhat mentally absent for much of the season. I think when those pillars aren't firing smoothly, the 'rough idle' spreads and players start to misplace simple passes/make irrational decisions.

In that regard, Archie Gray is even more phenomenal, and Bergvall's learning curve since November immense. Honestly, they are the two players I personally trust the most (Vic too, Solanke is not far behind and if Deki were fit, him too, followed by Spence). I actually don't trust any of our other players right now, albeit for most of them I believe it is due to temporary attrition of said-injuries/fatigue/expectations.

Regarding Sarr, I think he has really suffered playing alongside inconsistent and (frankly) untrustworthy teammates. Maddison cannot be relied upon, Biss we know about, and Bentancur also appears to have an inabiity to keep it in the pocket when the brick's hitting the fan. So whilst I think Sarr can absolutely be better with continued coaching, I think the main issue in general is that the team is not tight-knit/cohesive enough and has too many current untrustworthy players.
Click to expand...

Makes sense. I would ask a bunch of you to watch Spence more closely though. I think most are programmed to only see the best of him as he's gone from zero to hero this season. I've been watching him closely in the last couple of weeks. Eventually, some will probably see that some of Spence's defending is bang average. He is not resting behind the ball and getting back into position at all. He is way too casual in key moments. He is also the one in the defence who is most likely to play everyone onside. His positioning at times against B'mouth was hugely questionable, something I've picked Udogie up on over these last 2 seasons. Defending is all about reading of the game and positional sense, something we've been lacking in a bunch of our players since guys like Jan and Toby were playing. Spence really needs to work on this.

I'm enjoying the Djedemption thing but am expecting Djed's stock to lower quite a lot unless he irons out these clear defensive cracks (to me) in his game. We'll always enjoy the other side.

As for your points above, the question I would have back is what were all these "tired" players doing when they were fresh? I've seen Sonny fresh as a daisy and running on fumes. I've not seen a massive delta between the two Sonny's. Ditto with the others. Davies has also had a free ride with fans. Some of his defending has been found wanting since he moved inside 3 years ago. He's another that works well with fans blindspots.

All that being said, the biggest issue for me by a long, long way is Ange's utilisation of the 6 role. You can always find better players, but great coaches make things work using solid tactics. Ange is coming up way short in this area. He will fall on his sword due to his lack of adaptation with that 6 shirt.
 
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