Financial Fair Play

[Superhudd]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

I don't think FFP was put in place to make leagues more competitive and make sure smaller clubs had more of a chance to get into the top positions. It will probably slightly strengthen the grip the top clubs have on the rest of the league, but nowhere near as much as the financial development in football in the last 20 years has already done. Does anyone really think that clubs like United, Real or Barca would fall away at this point if not for the FFP regulations?

FFP was put in place to protect the clubs from crazy investors and to prevent situations like what happened at Pompey, the debt clubs like Valencia find themselves in etc. There was an overview of how many clubs in Europe that were in massive (relative to their turnovers) debt back when FFP was introduced. There were a lot of clubs in trouble and importantly a lot of clubs outside the top of their respective leagues.

Agree.. and to add, it forces crazy investors to build the club from within, that be a deluxe state of the art training ground, or a new stand adding 7k with corporate facilities to double the gameday takings.

I'd imagine the majority of Spanish owners are relieved that FFP has come in, considering the brick there country is in. Half full decrepid stadiums everywhere. You can add Italy to that too. We sometimes forget this isn't just about teams in the Premier League.

 

[indianspur]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

the gap between the elite and the rest has already been created, and with FFP that gap can never ever be narrowed.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

If UEFA / the Premier League could have devised rules that merely furthered this aim, then I could have wholeheartedly supported them. That's exactly what FFP should be about.

Not sure what they realistically could have done more than what they have done. They have the big clubs putting pressure on them to do as they say, with them threatening to just go join their own super league. They have EU and national free trade laws to deal with keeping them from putting strict ownership restrictions in place. Restricting access to the EL/CL for teams that overspend, thus removing the incentive for owners to gamble with the long term future of clubs in the hope of it paying off seems like a good start. The fact that it's also marginally (imo) favourable for the big clubs meant that it could be implemented.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

the gap between the elite and the rest has already been created, and with FFP that gap can never ever be narrowed.

Disagree with that entirely. Spurs have been naturally progressing for some time without a billionaire owner.


What is to stop other teams doing the same thing? Granted it won't happen overnight, but over 10 or so years with the right marketing strategy i see no reason why any other club couldn't expand their turnover.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

the gap between the elite and the rest has already been created, and with FFP that gap can never ever be narrowed.

Do you think the gap would have been likely to be narrowed if not for the FFP regulations? Pre-FFP European football has been getting very polarized in the last 20 years with little to no signs of that trend reversing. I don't think FFP changes the picture much.

Had FFP regulations been in place since before Abramovich took over Chelsea i think we would have seen Spurs in the CL 3-4 more seasons in the last 5-6 years and I think the gap between us and the top would have been considerably smaller. If competition for third and fourth in the PL (as an example) can open up a bit more by restricting the amount of money rich owners can inject into clubs it could allow clubs like ours a chance to step up via a good run over a couple of seasons in the league.

 

[elltrev]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Disagree with that entirely. Spurs have been naturally progressing for some time without a billionaire owner.


What is to stop other teams doing the same thing? Granted it won't happen overnight, but over 10 or so years with the right marketing strategy i see no reason why any other club couldn't expand their turnover.

We were the best-placed team to progress in the way that we have, because we had the biggest revenue outside of the Sky Four. We still spent a brick-load of money before we eventually broke into the top 4.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

We were the best-placed team to progress in the way that we have, because we had the biggest revenue outside of the Sky Four. We still spent a brick-load of money before we eventually broke into the top 4.

We spent a brick load of money that we made.


There are a number of clubs placed in the championship who have extremely large support that has waned due to their lack of Premiership football.


Clubs like Nottingham Forest and Leeds being perfect examples. It may take more years than it took spurs, but given effective management they could come through.


Southampton are a good example of this. They have one of the best academies in England, possibly one of the best in the world. Now that they are a Premier League club they can continue to nurture that talent rather than having higher league clubs pinching their potential superstars.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

We spent a brick load of money that we made.


There are a number of clubs placed in the championship who have extremely large support that has waned due to their lack of Premiership football.


Clubs like Nottingham Forest and Leeds being perfect examples. It may take more years than it took spurs, but given effective management they could come through.


Southampton are a good example of this. They have one of the best academies in England, possibly one of the best in the world. Now that they are a Premier League club they can continue to nurture that talent rather than having higher league clubs pinching their potential superstars.

Err......Southampton have been heavily bankrolled by billionaire owners over the past 3-4 seasons.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Err......Southampton have been heavily bankrolled by billionaire owners over the past 3-4 seasons.

Yup. People are currently saying that FFP means no club will compete.


Southampton have had money pumped into their academy, and can compete. I see no problem with that. They've not gone out and spent millions on players or wages.


In fact it's probably a good thing for football overall. More money into academies means more quality players which will improve the sport.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Disagree with that entirely. Spurs have been naturally progressing for some time without a billionaire owner.


What is to stop other teams doing the same thing? Granted it won't happen overnight, but over 10 or so years with the right marketing strategy i see no reason why any other club couldn't expand their turnover.

Spurs have progressed. No doubt.

But we've still come nowhere near winning anything major.

And even with the new stadium, I expect the financial gap to the likes of Man Utd to continue to grow (even if PL broadcasting revenues continue to be distributed relatively fairly). Sponsorship / commercial income will become an increasingly important area of football club revenues. And we are a million miles away from being able to compete with Man Utd on that front.

Likewise, the exploitation of a variety of modern media platforms.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Spurs have progressed. No doubt.

But we've still come nowhere near winning anything major.

And even with the new stadium, I expect the financial gap to the likes of Man Utd to continue to grow (even if PL broadcasting revenues continue to be distributed relatively fairly). Sponsorship / commercial income will become an increasingly important area of football club revenues. And we are a million miles away from being able to compete with Man Utd on that front.

Likewise, the exploitation of a variety of modern media platforms.

We made the last eight in the most prestigious competition in Europe. If that's not major than i'm not quite sure what is.


Finances can change, football is played on the field though, not on a balance sheet. You can still compete as clubs like us, Everton and Arsenal have shown.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Yup. People are currently saying that FFP means no club will compete.


Southampton have had money pumped into their academy, and can compete. I see no problem with that. They've not gone out and spent millions on players or wages.


In fact it's probably a good thing for football overall. More money into academies means more quality players which will improve the sport.

Southampton spent well beyond their means, on transfer fees and wages, over the previous few seasons. By far the best funded club in the lower divisions, when they were there.

Last year, loans totalling £33 million (from the late owner, Markus Liebherr) were converted into shares.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

We made the last eight in the most prestigious competition in Europe. If that's not major than i'm not quite sure what is.


Finances can change, football is played on the field though, not on a balance sheet. You can still compete as clubs like us, Everton and Arsenal have shown.

It's major, alright.

But we didn't come anywhere near winning it. Which was the point.

And, sure, we can still compete. Maybe even occasionally win stuff. But, long term, clubs with a massive, inbuilt financial advantage will win far, far more. Virtuous circle.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Southampton spent well beyond their means, on transfer fees and wages, over the previous few seasons. By far the best funded club in the lower divisions, when they were there.

Last year, loans totalling £33 million (from the late owner, Markus Liebherr) were converted into shares.

They've not spent that far beyond their means, you are forgetting some of the players they have sold. They made 30m on Walcott, Chamberlain and Bale over the past five years.


Whilst they are not perfect, they are a good template. They've not spent over 2m on a single transfer for the past three years prior to their promotion. I fail to see where this overspending on transfer fees is from.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

It's major, alright.

But we didn't come anywhere near winning it. Which was the point.

And, sure, we can still compete. Maybe even occasionally win stuff. But, long term, clubs with a massive, inbuilt financial advantage will win far, far more. Virtuous circle.

They could win more. They could also fall from grace. Something that recovering from is difficult with such FFP rules.


Look at Liverpool for instance. they made huge losses that would be unacceptable, yet they have still not made up the ground on the competition.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

They've not spent that far beyond their means, you are forgetting some of the players they have sold. They made 40m+ on Walcott, Chamberlain and Bale over the past five years.


Whilst they are not perfect, they are a good template. They've not spent over 2m on a single transfer for the past three years prior to their promotion. I fail to see where this overspending on transfer fees is from.

I repeat:

Last year, loans totalling £33 million (from the late owner, Markus Liebherr) were converted into shares.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

I repeat:

Last year, loans totalling £33 million (from the late owner, Markus Liebherr) were converted into shares.

If that's all the information you are going to spout, then there's no point in continuing.


The fact that a lot of that money was used to counter the fact they entered administration seems to have eluded you.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

They could win more. They could also fall from grace. Something that recovering from is difficult with such FFP rules.


Look at Liverpool for instance. they made huge losses that would be unacceptable, yet they have still not made up the ground on the competition.

Liverpool had an inbuilt financial advantage over us until Hicks and Gillette saddled them with £40 million per annum in interest payments to service their leveraged buyout of the club.

Nowadays, they no longer enjoy much of a financial advantage over us.

Man Utd are a different animal altogether. They are still miles ahead of the rest even though they, too, are having to service their owner's debts (to the tune of £60 million per annum). Imagine how much further ahead they will be when that is no longer the case.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Liverpool had an inbuilt financial advantage over us until Hicks and Gillette saddled them with £40 million per annum in interest payments to service their leveraged buyout of the club.

Nowadays, they no longer enjoy much of a financial advantage over us.

Man Utd are a different animal altogether. They are still miles ahead of the rest even though they, too, are having to service their owner's debts (to the tune of £60 million per annum). Imagine how much further ahead they will be when that is no longer the case.

And a large reason that Liverpool failed to make the most of that financial advantage?


Doing things like selling Torres for 50m and buying dross. Their situation is of their own making and had they spent better they would be far more competetive.


The big clubs will make mistakes. They will face bumps in the road and it will be possible for other clubs to take advantage of it.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

If that's all the information you are going to spout, then there's no point in continuing.


The fact that a lot of that money was used to counter the fact they entered administration seems to have eluded you.

Well, if you refuse to acknowledge that information or dismiss it as irrelevant, then I have to agree with you...no point continuing the conversation.