Frank Give him time or get rid?

[braineclipse]

Someone posted a chart on the transfer thread and Gallagher’s progressive passes were no better than any of the midfielders we have, his pass success was a few % higher however. The metrics (prog passes & pass success) on those charts can be massively swayed by the teams you are playing in though and managers tactics.

Had better numbers at Chelsea. More similar to Bentancur here pre-Frank.

I think he's better at it than those stats playing under Simeone would indicate, but not sure he's good enough at it to make a big impact.

 

[braineclipse]

It appears we are simply not interested in signing midfielders who can offer a progressive pass option from deeper positions. Maddison would often drop in and pick the ball up off the CBs so as he could carry and then thread a pass into the forwards/attacking players. Right now, the only person to really do that is Romero (Porro sometimes).

I think it's in part difficulties finding players that can do that while also being defensively and physically good enough for that role in the PL.

Maddison was massively important to us in the previous two seasons and a big miss now.

 

[braineclipse]

I don't see that at all. We've very rarely played a high press this season and when we have it has been a coherent, well drilled one even more rarely.

Think it was better earlier this season. Injuries and fatigue a part of that probably.

How easily our high press is bypassed combined with how rarely we win possession definitely is a concern. But I do think a high press is something Frank wants from the team in phases.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I don't see that at all. We've very rarely played a high press this season and when we have it has been a coherent, well drilled one even more rarely.

I don't hate myself enough to look back any further than the Villa game but, although it was poorly done, there were quite a few instances where they cut through our team in their own half because we were - impotantly - trying to press closer to their box. It's disjointed and very poorly executed, but I think it's there... or at least there's an intent.

Unfortunately, the only thing consistent about the team at the moment are the weaknesses that have been there for over a year.

 

[Muttley]

A through ball is defined in a statistical sense as being a ball played in behind the defence/through the defensive line - that's the type of pass this stat refers to.

So are there stats that really look at how we transition through the thirds? For me this is at the crux of the conversation you\re having with Steff. Take the Poch days. We had a genius like Dembele who would always progress the ball from our defensive third to the middle third. Then we had Dele / Eriksen with Harry sometimes dropping deep that would take us through the next third with Dembele. However, we could sit for ages on that line between the middle and attacking third and just hold possession. No doubt, teams parked the bus against us and we had a real weakness when we wouldn't cross the ball when we got in the wide areas. I used to be screaming at the screen at Poch about it. So back in those days we had possession through the thirds and real paranoia about losing possession so we didn't take enough risks in the final third. We had the odd good season like 16/17 where things clicked though.

For a long time now we seem to have an issue where we cannot progress the ball through the thirds. I'm talking every manager since Poch and definitely including Ange. Our approach from the defensive to middle third is mostly built around Romero. Without Solanke, our approach to keep possession at our feet into the final third has been desperate. However, as you say if a 6 plays it to a 10 in a natural 10 position then it won't count in the "through ball" stats anyway. These are the most important balls when you have someone like Xavi or Madds in your team. You have to find your best player. Eriksen managed to always be available as he just went into marathon runner mode. He would be up there in the running stats every season because he knew he had to keep on the move to play effectively. Him and Kane both quit on this concept before they left the club. Harry was terrible at it in his last 2 seasons and the big reason his assists dried up completely. However, as we all know he still was in the right place to put the ball in the net.

I actually find this conversation interesting. I do believe people miss the biggest point about Frank and I've mentioned it loads. There has been a disease at our club for 3 seasons and that is conceding goals. He should absolutely do whatever it takes to knock 20 goals of our current league levels even if it means negative outcomes at the other end. It is by far the most important stat at our football club but will never be popular with the fans. That means Frank needs to show some deaf ears to some of the detractors who are happy with Ossie football and no trophies. Even Ange figured that out in the last part of his tenure.

 

[Ace Face]

Tottenham 'begin formal talks' with Xabi Alonso as ex-Liverpool star is 'keen' to replace Frank

😮Tottenham have reportedly started talks with Xabi Alonso over replacing Thomas Frank...

www.football365.com

 

[metalgear]

too bad Eze and MGW fell through - they would have helped plenty

and also Europa - can we agree its a European Mickey Mouse cup

 

[DeanoAustin]

too bad Eze and MGW fell through - they would have helped plenty

and also Europa - can we agree its a European Mickey Mouse cup

If we accept that, we accept that the Champions League is the only European competition worth winning. That’s ridiculous to me.

Jose Mourinho has won everything in the game. He talked up winning the Conference League with Roma. West Ham celebrated it massively. It’s a level or two below the Europa League.

To win any European competition is a magnificent achievement and you’ll rarely hear pros or people in the game talking it down. Yet, for some reason, some of our fans seem to want to.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

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I must admit, having watched this, part of me thinks it means that Frank still has upside with us. 1. Because it’s SO clear that the players haven’t grasped what he wants yet. And 2. Because Clery is talking the phases where are we not committing forward runners rather than a phase which we do. (Although I do readily admit the forward running phase of our game seems to be 30 out of the 90 maximum.)

As Clery even acknowledges, the theory behind our shape versus Villa was sound. Especially knowing they like to attack through the middle. The issue was dreadful execution. The press is still often uncoordinated when we do try to do it. But my mind doesn’t go to ‘Frank is a bad coach’ when I see this stuff. Because if Brentford’s players can do it, ours should be capable. I think it’s just a very different thing that Frank is asking our players to do compared to Ange. So my sympathy to Frank goes to the fact that he, like any of our other system managers, is implementing his own system / method and needs time to get that in place.

My ‘issue’ with Frank is that this wasn’t what was promised. Needing a season to teach players who had been all in one one way of playing, to learn a radically different one. And why is this the style and method we’re doubling down on. It all seems completely bizarre and a little needless to me. The players are also massively uncoordinated in possession, and that will likely look better too once ‘layers’ are added. I just don’t fully get why this was the route we went down. And I think the assumptions that we’ll player a nicer style under him are wrong. This is what it is. It’s what it was at Brentford. He is not looking at our squad and putting a more progressive style in place because he has better players, he’s applying his Brentford method of different phases of the game having quite different approaches. Bursts of pressing, but largely mid / low block and counter. And sometimes not even counter, but crossing.

The players will start to execute better and so I believe there is upside in that. But I do think it comes down to whether this style will be pleasing enough to people if we start to win games. Because if we don’t, he’s gone anyway.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

So are there stats that really look at how we transition through the thirds? For me this is at the crux of the conversation you\re having with Steff. Take the Poch days. We had a genius like Dembele who would always progress the ball from our defensive third to the middle third. Then we had Dele / Eriksen with Harry sometimes dropping deep that would take us through the next third with Dembele. However, we could sit for ages on that line between the middle and attacking third and just hold possession. No doubt, teams parked the bus against us and we had a real weakness when we wouldn't cross the ball when we got in the wide areas. I used to be screaming at the screen at Poch about it. So back in those days we had possession through the thirds and real paranoia about losing possession so we didn't take enough risks in the final third. We had the odd good season like 16/17 where things clicked though.

For a long time now we seem to have an issue where we cannot progress the ball through the thirds. I'm talking every manager since Poch and definitely including Ange. Our approach from the defensive to middle third is mostly built around Romero. Without Solanke, our approach to keep possession at our feet into the final third has been desperate. However, as you say if a 6 plays it to a 10 in a natural 10 position then it won't count in the "through ball" stats anyway. These are the most important balls when you have someone like Xavi or Madds in your team. You have to find your best player. Eriksen managed to always be available as he just went into marathon runner mode. He would be up there in the running stats every season because he knew he had to keep on the move to play effectively. Him and Kane both quit on this concept before they left the club. Harry was terrible at it in his last 2 seasons and the big reason his assists dried up completely. However, as we all know he still was in the right place to put the ball in the net.

I actually find this conversation interesting. I do believe people miss the biggest point about Frank and I've mentioned it loads. There has been a disease at our club for 3 seasons and that is conceding goals. He should absolutely do whatever it takes to knock 20 goals of our current league levels even if it means negative outcomes at the other end. It is by far the most important stat at our football club but will never be popular with the fans. That means Frank needs to show some deaf ears to some of the detractors who are happy with Ossie football and no trophies. Even Ange figured that out in the last part of his tenure.

I think it’s interesting too. I don’t think Frank is doing what he’s doing because he’s curing something particular to Tottenham though. I think he’s doing it because it’s what he does, and what he’s comfortable with. I think he’d do this at any club he joined regardless of the record the previous year. We’re at the start of a cycle with him, and so right now it looks bad but there are lower goals for and against. As it gets better the goals for will creep up.

I can however totally believe that the board thought that we conceded too many goals and so hired a coach that they believed would solve it. I’m not sure they thought the attacking side would diminish so much or that it would take this long for Frank’s methods to start looking like they could work (and they haven’t yet). And if that is what happened I think it’s a bit silly. Football is a team sport and hiring a defensive coach or playing in a reactive way does not mean we’re more likely to win games that way. And actually so far the underlying numbers on this aren’t great.

My argument is that you need to give any system time to get to its peak effectiveness. Frank will get better because he will likely get time, some signings, and things will start to look better. But I don’t think it will be because he decided to focus more on attack after solving defence. I think everything will get more cohesive within his method. And equally I think we could have improved our defence with the prior regime, with less injuries, with more depth, and continual refinement of that system too. Attack can start at the back line and defence can start at the front line. And I don’t think Frank has solved defence or is even making a special effort to do so. I think he’s doing what he would have done, because this is his method and this is who he is as a coach.

 

[glasgowspur]

I must admit, having watched this, part of me thinks it means that Frank still has upside with us. 1. Because it’s SO clear that the players haven’t grasped what he wants yet. And 2. Because Clery is talking the phases where are we not committing forward runners rather than a phase which we do. (Although I do readily admit the forward running phase of our game seems to be 30 out of the 90 maximum.)

As Clery even acknowledges, the theory behind our shape versus Villa was sound. Especially knowing they like to attack through the middle. The issue was dreadful execution. The press is still often uncoordinated when we do try to do it. But my mind doesn’t go to ‘Frank is a bad coach’ when I see this stuff. Because if Brentford’s players can do it, ours should be capable. I think it’s just a very different thing that Frank is asking our players to do compared to Ange. So my sympathy to Frank goes to the fact that he, like any of our other system managers, is implementing his own system / method and needs time to get that in place.

My ‘issue’ with Frank is that this wasn’t what was promised. Needing a season to teach players who had been all in one one way of playing, to learn a radically different one. And why is this the style and method we’re doubling down on. It all seems completely bizarre and a little needless to me. The players are also massively uncoordinated in possession, and that will likely look better too once ‘layers’ are added. I just don’t fully get why this was the route we went down. And I think the assumptions that we’ll player a nicer style under him are wrong. This is what it is. It’s what it was at Brentford. He is not looking at our squad and putting a more progressive style in place because he has better players, he’s applying his Brentford method of different phases of the game having quite different approaches. Bursts of pressing, but largely mid / low block and counter. And sometimes not even counter, but crossing.

The players will start to execute better and so I believe there is upside in that. But I do think it comes down to whether this style will be pleasing enough to people if we start to win games. Because if we don’t, he’s gone anyway.

And then do we go for another season like this when maddison, kulu and solanke return , because surely when they return we cannot be playing the same way?
Do we rip up whatever this is supposed to be and start a fresh next season, totally writing off this season?
That's two seasons of nothing, two years of development our youngsters (who we payed a lot of money for) miss out on and two years where our senior players are at their peak and we don't take advantage of it.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

And then do we go for another season like this when maddison, kulu and solanke return , because surely when they return we cannot be playing the same way?
Do we rip up whatever this is supposed to be and start a fresh next season, totally writing off this season?
That's two seasons of nothing, two years of development our youngsters (who we payed a lot of money for) miss out on and two years where our senior players are at their peak and we don't take advantage of it.

I'm afraid we can play the same way with Maddison, Kulusevski and Solanke. If anything, Solanke's return will probably make Frank believe spamming crosses into the box is the answer.

Youngsters learn and progress by spending time on the pitch against quality opposition and in training, provided they work alongside quality players.

As for our senior being at their peak... if that's the best they can do, we should be able to find adequate replacement. Romero is the only top player in the squad (I think) and a) he's not flawless and b) he doesn't look very happy to be here, which isn't a good recipe for success. VDV is a good player, but he's not irreplaceable. We moved on from King, Judas, Sheringham, Berbatov and someday, we will move on from losing Kane too.

Quite frankly, there isn't a single player in this squad I'm afraid of losing, provided we do our homework and target a specific replacement.

 

[Muttley]

But I don’t think it will be because he decided to focus more on attack after solving defence. I think everything will get more cohesive within his method. And equally I think we could have improved our defence with the prior regime, with less injuries, with more depth, and continual refinement of that system too.

It might not be a change for Frank because he knows how to turn the dials between defensive and attack. It is business as usual for him. However, it is a change for the Spurs squad. In fact, it's a massive one. We know Ange started (18 months) with a really attacking philosophy and he would take the bullets himself for the goals conceded. He kept trying to convince us on those pressers that everything would be all right on the night. Then it wasn't because of mitigating circumstances like fatigue and injuries so he changed both his narrative and his tactics at the end of his tenure. Then he unearthed a really defensive system that scraped us through the EL final. Still though, he refused to use that system in the league so we kept losing. That was what I found frustrating. If you're putting all your eggs in the EL baskets then get the entire squad to play the same way in every competition. I still don't think Ange made his players accountable enough for the goals against column overall. He didn't turn dials either and try too much.

I genuinely could not go back to that and is why I'm intrigued by Frank. We're in a PL phase where most teams are deviating away from the attractive football and part of this is PGMOLs fault. You cannot play good football if the refs don't deal with the dark arts. Frank seems to be taking his guys through some logical pain barriers. As the video that Raziel posted, it shows they aren't getting it. They're in the right shape but doing the wrong things. That will hopefully change.

We can only hope that Frank can do what Harry did all those years ago. When we had 2 points from 8 games, Harry came in and changed things. He didn't let Corluka or Ekotto go over the half way line. He kept his back four intact and he put protection in front. He turned losses into draws and draws into wins and optimised the quality of the squad he had. From being rock bottom, we finished 8th. It was a process that took from day 1 of taking over though in a league that simply wasn't as tactical. This one is so Frank has the harder job.

I think my problem wit Frank eventually might be that he knows how to disrupt other managers but he mostly doesn't choose to. Pep is constantly re-inventing things and disrupts this league every year. It is why I respect him so much as a coach.

 

[billyiddo]

So are there stats that really look at how we transition through the thirds?

I guess you'd need to look at a variety together to paint that picture, rather than any particular stat by itself - progressive passes/runs/carries then reference the pass networks & action zones? Though I do think it's pretty clear from watching us play without needing to rely on stats

 

[Muttley]

I guess you'd need to look at a variety together to paint that picture, rather than any particular stat by itself - progressive passes/runs/carries then reference the pass networks & action zones? Though I do think it's pretty clear from watching us play without needing to rely on stats

An my point was that I've not seen it since Poch. Ange didn't achieve it. We kept losing possession whilst we were transitioning through the thirds in a very destructive way. So I'm a little baffled how Frank is expected to turn up and achieve it when it's not really been possible. I sort of admire Ange for at least attempting to even though trying to play 5-a-side from our goal to their's is incredibly high risk. We found out the hard way,

 

[Raziel]

I must admit, having watched this, part of me thinks it means that Frank still has upside with us. 1. Because it’s SO clear that the players haven’t grasped what he wants yet. And 2. Because Clery is talking the phases where are we not committing forward runners rather than a phase which we do. (Although I do readily admit the forward running phase of our game seems to be 30 out of the 90 maximum.)

As Clery even acknowledges, the theory behind our shape versus Villa was sound. Especially knowing they like to attack through the middle. The issue was dreadful execution. The press is still often uncoordinated when we do try to do it. But my mind doesn’t go to ‘Frank is a bad coach’ when I see this stuff. Because if Brentford’s players can do it, ours should be capable. I think it’s just a very different thing that Frank is asking our players to do compared to Ange. So my sympathy to Frank goes to the fact that he, like any of our other system managers, is implementing his own system / method and needs time to get that in place.

My ‘issue’ with Frank is that this wasn’t what was promised. Needing a season to teach players who had been all in one one way of playing, to learn a radically different one. And why is this the style and method we’re doubling down on. It all seems completely bizarre and a little needless to me. The players are also massively uncoordinated in possession, and that will likely look better too once ‘layers’ are added. I just don’t fully get why this was the route we went down. And I think the assumptions that we’ll player a nicer style under him are wrong. This is what it is. It’s what it was at Brentford. He is not looking at our squad and putting a more progressive style in place because he has better players, he’s applying his Brentford method of different phases of the game having quite different approaches. Bursts of pressing, but largely mid / low block and counter. And sometimes not even counter, but crossing.

The players will start to execute better and so I believe there is upside in that. But I do think it comes down to whether this style will be pleasing enough to people if we start to win games. Because if we don’t, he’s gone anyway.

My view is, this isn't some radical departure of a system, e.g. in that video

- Defending in a mid block 4-4-2, literally one of the most common things, everyone of our players should understand it, but we struggle to execute 10 mins into a game?
- Passing lanes, how many times do players have to look up, look around (which automatically puts them under pressure) and there is no open pass?

These aren't things that should take 6 months and 31 games to bed in.

I also agree he isn't adjusting for better players, interestingly it's something I think was an Ange fault as well, therefore the system makes the individuals worse instead of the sum better.

 

[braineclipse]

My view is, this isn't some radical departure of a system, e.g. in that video

- Defending in a mid block 4-4-2, literally one of the most common things, everyone of our players should understand it, but we struggle to execute 10 mins into a game?
- Passing lanes, how many times do players have to look up, look around (which automatically puts them under pressure) and there is no open pass?

These aren't things that should take 6 months and 31 games to bed in.

I also agree he isn't adjusting for better players, interestingly it's something I think was an Ange fault as well, therefore the system makes the individuals worse instead of the sum better.

One of the concerns is that we're not looking like a team bedding in at all. We're looking more like a team in decline. Some of those basics/common things were better earlier this season.

Injuries and fatigue is probably a significant contributor to that. As well as form and confidence. Not all on Frank if course. But still, one would hope that getting past half a year in charge there would be a positive movement rather than decline.

Not sure if it's not adjusting for better players or something else, but agree that we've been looking less than the sum of the parts.

 

[thfcsteff]

It’s simple.
You either believe Thomas Frank will introduce a different type of football to the club when he gets the services of Deki and Maddison back, or you don’t.
That in turn is based on how you view his time at Brentford matched with what we’ve seen so far this season.
Perhaps the only other factor is how much stock you put into the turbulence around him, and how much that has disrupted his plans.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

One of the concerns is that we're not looking like a team bedding in at all. We're looking more like a team in decline. Some of those basics/common things were better earlier this season.

Injuries and fatigue is probably a significant contributor to that. As well as form and confidence. Not all on Frank if course. But still, one would hope that getting past half a year in charge there would be a positive movement rather than decline.

Not sure if it's not adjusting for better players or something else, but agree that we've been looking less than the sum of the parts.

Agreed. Actually…knowing where to position yourself to block a passing lane is something we absolutely will have demonstrated versus PSG, or Emirates Marketing Project. So maybe it’s not that the players haven’t grasped it yet, maybe they’re lacking belief in this way of doing things. And it’s letting their concentration slide. It can’t be fatigue in the first fifteen minutes of a game.

Fair question as to why we seem to be getting worse at some of this stuff.

 

[thfcsteff]

I do find your response to his comments interesting because I couldn't give a fudge either way. I find all of that to be fluff either way, positive or negative. If everything was going perfectly and we were say top of the table I wouldn't sit here and analyse those comments he made about sitting on the shoulders of success and actually take that seriously and believe that's how he achieved it. It's just chat, something to sound good for the fans.

He was always going to implement whatever plans and systems he felt made sense for the club at the time and I think thats is the case with any incoming manager at any club, not just Spurs. It's all spin and PR, don't take it all that seriously mate.

Good for you @Bishop .
The world is made up of many different people.
I like to try and put a certain amount of stock in people’s public words, and I think it is very cynical to believe that it is all ‘fluff’ designed simply for optics. Obviously there is a message decided upon, however what you are suggesting is that in this case, ‘the message’ was not just fluffily inaccurate but a lie. I don’t believe that (and trust me when I say I know a LOT about PR and high-profile people, a lot!!!). And given my experience in that field, if he DID say that simply to ‘deliver something to sound good for the fans’ then the PR who advised him should be sacked, because it was quite specific. Your initial message in any campaign is what sets the benchmark for both expectations and evaluation, and as such, it is wise not to BS it.