Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

But you should also perhaps understand that Frank is the proactive one in the way a lot of us think. Identifying strengths and weaknesses of your opposition is proactive especially when you blend them into your own philosophy. Frank's the one that is building processes and strong foundations. Frank exudes proaction compared to prior managers. He reminds me of Pep and Klopp because they went down the same path as Frank is in their first season. Under Poch, we had Paulinho, Capoue, Stamboue, Dembele etc getting splinters whilst Mason and Bentalab got the shirts. Is that any different from Gray with Frank? Those first seasons were pretty tough for all of the above and I expect that this season as well.

I do think the second half of the season will be better than the first. Those methods will start to kick in. We'll get players back and even a new player or two. Frank and the club will be in a happier place.

I’m really open to the idea that Frank’s approach is going to pay dividends long term and even second half of this season, I’ve been big on the idea that we’ve seen green shoots in the last month.

But I don’t see the similarity in Frank and Poch at a football level. At a general leadership level as a manager of a club, instilling principles that endure long term, yes. On the pitch, I think Poch was proactive and Frank is reactive. People may use those words differently, but as defined in the context of football coaching reactive is surely most commonly used to describe being more concerned with stopping the opposition versus imposing your own style of play?

Frank is proactive in going about instilling his principles, his method and approach to football, but it’s inherently a reactive approach.

 

[braineclipse]

But you should also perhaps understand that Frank is the proactive one in the way a lot of us think. Identifying strengths and weaknesses of your opposition is proactive especially when you blend them into your own philosophy. Frank's the one that is building processes and strong foundations. Frank exudes proaction compared to prior managers. He reminds me of Pep and Klopp because they went down the same path as Frank is in their first season. Under Poch, we had Paulinho, Capoue, Stamboue, Dembele etc getting splinters whilst Mason and Bentalab got the shirts. Is that any different from Gray with Frank? Those first seasons were pretty tough for all of the above and I expect that this season as well.

I do think the second half of the season will be better than the first. Those methods will start to kick in. We'll get players back and even a new player or two. Frank and the club will be in a happier place.

To me having good ways to progress the ball, attack and create chances from open play has to be part of the foundation for a team like ours before we can call the foundations strong. If Frank can do that I think I'll be happy. I think there are some signs that we're trying at least, hope we see that continuing to develop.

Sure there are similarities between how Poch, Pep, Klopp and Frank go about things. But many differences too. One big one being that those others valued putting in possession foundations in early.

What you call proactive just isn't what most people mean by that word in football terms most of the time. That's not to say that he's reactive in all ways all the time in all of his approache. But his approach is one more skewed towards adjusting to the individual game and opponent rather than having a more set way of playing. Typically labelled reactive compared to proactive.

 

[braineclipse]

fudging hell, we are bloody awful at this transfer business. We shouldn't have paid more than 50m for them total.

Richy has no strengths worth caring about and Odobert (who I do rate as having good potential) has never been anything but a bit part player here (annoyingly from both managers hes had here so far).

If Johnson is now sold as is being reported and his signing is then labelled a failure it's the kind of failure we imo should be making. Obviously some loss financially, but we got something out of the player, was able to recoup most of the money, move him on fairly swiftly and had a useful player in the meantime. We've seen awful, this is not it imo.

Odobert wasn't a bit part player under Ange. He was given significant trust, but missed big parts of the season through injuries.

 

[braineclipse]

Mbeumo wasn't the Mbeumo we know until Frank, too lazy to dig up Toney's record but fair to say his best years were under Frank.

That is part of people's criticism right now, how is he making Richi, RKM, Tel, Odobert, Kudus, Johnson, Xavi better?
- Looks like he's outright given up on Tel & Johnson (100M worth of players)
- Odobert is now a bit part player
- Kudus is getting worse
- We don't play to Richi's strengths
- RKM looks the best of them but isn't getting in the goals
- Xavi was in/out/in?

It's pretty bad that Frank can't seem to get the best out of anyone in our front line, that we can't adjust (for somehow who's entire philosophy was sold as being adjustable/pragmatic) to make even one of them hit top form?

Honestly Frank's biggest achievement for the season seems to have been keeping Richi, VDV & Romero fit

Made this point before, but I don't see the adjustable thing yet at least. It's very much a similar approach to what he used at Brentford.

Now that may change over time, if he does well enough to get that time. That was always the question with him, can he do the stuff he hasn't had to do before, but probably has to do here. Questions like that will be relevant for 95% of managers we can appoint imo.

I agree on not getting the best out of the majority of our attacking players. But on player development I think that typically takes more than half a season to see real development. That has been a strength of his before and probably one of the reasons we appointed him. One of the areas where he needs to show that he can do that here as well.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I was willing to have a more in depth conversation about it but I see we can’t get past ‘running the players into the ground and forcing the defence to sprint back with last ditch tackles’ which I think is just too surface level.

So outline what I am missing, which is what I asked at the begining of this conversation. You havn't been able to outline anything more yourself, despite claiming there was more to Ange's press. It exisits I just can't tell you what it is.

I’m very open to the idea that Frank does things that Ange doesn’t do. But this idea that Frank understands a truth that Ange does not is way off for me.

We were talking about one specific truth: that sprinting press all game for 95 mins, and in every game, is unsustainable. That is way off for you? Why?

I am open to discussing the merits of all systems and ways of looking at the game. You seem very firm and entrenched in your opinion that one of these styles cannot work. So there’s not much to discuss.

Re-read my previous posts. You're putting words into peoples mouths. It can certainally work. Especialy for smaller sides without Europe or in big games or deployed at times during a game.

I’m even open to the idea that Frank’s approach and pragmatism will likely have more longer term viability than Ange’s idealism. But I’d rather not have a discussion where one side is made out to be a school level amateur quality coach. It’s rubbish debate!

You said you thought it was disrespectful to call Ange's press 'school yard' but havn't managed to outline anything to make me think this is unfair.

 

[braineclipse]

Haha. I appreciate you saving me the hassle of writing it, you’ve summed it up. Things that we never saw under Ange.

Without Europe and without much longevity at the top level.

Let’s recap you were offended that I’d called our press under Ange school yard. So it’s more a question of what you’d like me to call his press that would more respectful.

I was pleased to see out the season with Ange, and now I’m pleased we’re moving onto a manager who isn’t asking the forwards to run themselves into the ground every game, and asking the defense to spring back with last ditch tackles. We’re more pragmatic now, but missing a lot of creativity from Son Kulu and Madders.

For a final or key game absolutely. Bit of a straw man going up here.

My point is that it all works. If the circumstances are right. The right pieces are in place etc. Late Spurs Poch evolved his pressing to be much less constant than early Spurs Poch. Results were worse. I could argue that this means higher intensity pressing more constantly equals better results. I’m not going to do that because I think there was a lot of context to late Spurs Poch, and that’s my argument with all of it. You’re very definitive that one idea simply cannot and did not work and I don’t buy that.

I very much doubt it! You’d see players haring after the ball from all and every angle. It was exciting, exhilarating and can work short term for smaller teams not in Europe. Frank understands that truth, and that is the difference. He can build something long term, given the chance.


If you say so, sorry gave up by now

Not wanting to get into another Ange debate...

What Frank has shown is that at a well run somewhat smaller club with a clear identity that matches his approach rather well he can build something long term. What he did at Brentford was super impressive.

Like with almost all managers we can appoint how that translates to our circumstances here remains an unanswered question until it's tested. Had he taken over a similar club with similar circumstances the confidence in him replicating that would be higher imo.

Most managers that get to this level can build something long term given circumstances that are right for them to do so. But the circumstances at different clubs are very different.

For me half a season should be enough to show what you're going to be about at the club you're at. But I can accept Frank needing more time than that, injuries, different issues while he's been here. At some point though he has to actually show us what he's going to do here, and for me it should be different to what he did at Brentford. Because our circumstances are very different to those at Brentford.

 

[Bishop]

If Johnson is now sold as is being reported and his signing is then labelled a failure it's the kind of failure we imo should be making. Obviously some loss financially, but we got something out of the player, was able to recoup most of the money, move him on fairly swiftly and had a useful player in the meantime. We've seen awful, this is not it imo.

Odobert wasn't a bit part player under Ange. He was given significant trust, but missed big parts of the season through injuries.

I absolutely agree that the Johnson signing isn’t a failure, nor was it a signing I criticised us for making. We should be going for players of his ilk — that’s the market where, if you sift through enough, you can strike gold or even plunder a diamond. So I’m totally fine with buying him, trying him out, evaluating him, and then moving him on swiftly. I’d only have an issue with it if we did what we’ve done in the past and held on to the player well past the point of their usefulness.

With regard to Odobert, he returned from injury in February. Of the remaining 13 PL games, he started just over half and none of the EL games. Maybe it’s just my frustration, but I wanted him to be used more than that. He was — and still is — the best option for LWF, in my opinion. He has started fewer games this season but featured more often as a sub. I don’t really get it, to be honest. It’s not as if we’re over-laden with fantastic options on the left, so why we don’t just use the most suited guy baffles me somewhat.

 

[braineclipse]

I absolutely agree that the Johnson signing isn’t a failure, nor was it a signing I criticised us for making. We should be going for players of his ilk — that’s the market where, if you sift through enough, you can strike gold or even plunder a diamond. So I’m totally fine with buying him, trying him out, evaluating him, and then moving him on swiftly. I’d only have an issue with it if we did what we’ve done in the past and held on to the player well past the point of their usefulness.

With regard to Odobert, he returned from injury in February. Of the remaining 13 PL games, he started just over half and none of the EL games. Maybe it’s just my frustration, but I wanted him to be used more than that. He was — and still is — the best option for LWF, in my opinion. He has started fewer games this season but featured more often as a sub. I don’t really get it, to be honest. It’s not as if we’re over-laden with fantastic options on the left, so why we don’t just use the most suited guy baffles me somewhat.

He was also thrown straight in before his injuries. He was competing with Son and imo Richarlison played a very important role for us on the left in the EL grind out a result phase.

Neither Odobert, Kolo Muani or Tel have taken their chances to make that LWF role their own. I think Odobert has done enough to get more game time now.

But if rumours are to be believed the solution will be a new left winger in January. Not sure what we then do with Odobert and Tel...

 

[Bishop]

He was also thrown straight in before his injuries. He was competing with Son and imo Richarlison played a very important role for us on the left in the EL grind out a result phase.

Neither Odobert, Kolo Muani or Tel have taken their chances to make that LWF role their own. I think Odobert has done enough to get more game time now.

But if rumours are to be believed the solution will be a new left winger in January. Not sure what we then do with Odobert and Tel...

Mauni isn't a LWF and I don't believe that works, nor was Simons when he was played out there initially (as I said would be the case). Options for the left should be Odo, Tel and Richy. I would happily go for a starter quality player at which point Odobert is the perfect youngster bubbling under imo, getting starts and minutes here and there.

You could arguably use Tel in the same manner as well I suppose, but with him I wouldn't be shocked if doesn't get a loan if he doesn't start getting proper minutes. Tel isn't someone I thought it made sense to sign at the time for various reasons but he has looked lively in his last few appearances, so maybe he's biding his time and waiting for his moment.

 

[braineclipse]

Mauni isn't a LWF and I don't believe that works, nor was Simons when he was played out there initially (as I said would be the case). Options for the left should be Odo, Tel and Richy. I would happily go for a starter quality player at which point Odobert is the perfect youngster bubbling under imo, getting starts and minutes here and there.

You could arguably use Tel in the same manner as well I suppose, but with him I wouldn't be shocked if doesn't get a loan if he doesn't start getting proper minutes. Tel isn't someone I thought it made sense to sign at the time for various reasons but he has looked lively in his last few appearances, so maybe he's biding his time and waiting for his moment.

I think Muani can play there too, but probably needs a more overlapping and left footed full back behind him. As well as us generally playing better...

Both Odobert and Tel need game time at this point. If we bring in a starting left winger I think a loan deal for Tel makes sense. Doubt that was what he was envisioning when stepping down to us from Bayern, can't know what he would think of that. I think there's real quality potential in Tel, but know we see that somewhat differently.

You think part of the plan may be that Kolo Muani can play more on the right if we sell Johnson?

On the selling thing you brought up I agree, but I think that is also related to who we sign. Much easier to sell someone that isn’t on massive wages.

 

[Bishop]

I think Muani can play there too, but probably needs a more overlapping and left footed full back behind him. As well as us generally playing better...

Both Odobert and Tel need game time at this point. If we bring in a starting left winger I think a loan deal for Tel makes sense. Doubt that was what he was envisioning when stepping down to us from Bayern, can't know what he would think of that. I think there's real quality potential in Tel, but know we see that somewhat differently.

You think part of the plan may be that Kolo Muani can play more on the right if we sell Johnson?

On the selling thing you brought up I agree, but I think that is also related to who we sign. Much easier to sell someone that isn’t on massive wages.

MuanI could indeed be played on the right, he's a linky style player so works best when he's near others and he can pop the ball off so possible that suits him. The biggest issue really is he's not a cold blooded goal scorer but instead is a good footballer. The polar opposite of a Johnson if you will.

 

[Muttley]

So it feels the same to you?

Yeah, perhaps even feels a little more solid than before when I think about it.

For me 16/17 was the peak side and then we went into decline. It's been a really rough post-Poch era at the club. More recently, we've invested in a younger group of players and we're in total nurturing mode. Since guys like Romero and Kulu walked into the club we've been on a solid build out of the squad. That squad is pretty decent but full to the brim at this stage. In the next phase we can really get it to the next level by rotating a few.

There are so many reasons to feel optimistic in my mind. I just don't always feel that from fellow fans. I think they're way too focused on what's happened in the last 2 or 3 games rather than the bigger picture.

 

[P.D.]

Not wanting to get into another Ange debate...

What Frank has shown is that at a well run somewhat smaller club with a clear identity that matches his approach rather well he can build something long term. What he did at Brentford was super impressive.

Like with almost all managers we can appoint how that translates to our circumstances here remains an unanswered question until it's tested. Had he taken over a similar club with similar circumstances the confidence in him replicating that would be higher imo.

Most managers that get to this level can build something long term given circumstances that are right for them to do so. But the circumstances at different clubs are very different.

For me half a season should be enough to show what you're going to be about at the club you're at. But I can accept Frank needing more time than that, injuries, different issues while he's been here. At some point though he has to actually show us what he's going to do here, and for me it should be different to what he did at Brentford. Because our circumstances are very different to those at Brentford.

This is fair, we often see managers having a mixed start then in the 2nd half of the season you can start to see things coming together. We don't even need positive results just the ability to see a bit of a plan and tactics come together, that players are starting to "get" it etc and that will be enough to carry on with into a 2nd season. If we don't see evidence of that in the second half then we'll have a big decision to make in the summer.

 

[Muttley]

Poch and Frank’s similarities are most closely around long term culture building at clubs. They go about it in different ways and have different football and leadership styles, but clearly they instill principles that endure beyond a season or two. In this reading, you could throw Moyes into the mix.

I think it is way more than that. Poch and Frank are about nurturing. They are about complete trust and having the right relationship with their players. When you look at the long term nurturing project of Mbuemo, that's where Frank and Poch are similar. Poch did amazing things with his 2 full-backs, Walker and Rose. He transformed Dembele into the deeper midfielder that could transition us through the thirds. Poch also got Eriksen absolutely buzzing in a Spurs shirt. By far, our most important player for a long period of Poch's tenure.

Ange was slightly different. He was about a squad siege mentality and unconditional belief in his approach. I don't think he was a relationships guy though. I read some stuff about him actually being quite aloof to his players.

What I'm also hoping is that Frank and this new regime are quite hard. I'm finding the Brennan Johnson thing interesting. It's as if Frank has seen enough and told his employers to get the next churn done. Our club needs more of that.

 

[Muttley]

I’m really open to the idea that Frank’s approach is going to pay dividends long term and even second half of this season, I’ve been big on the idea that we’ve seen green shoots in the last month.

But I don’t see the similarity in Frank and Poch at a football level. At a general leadership level as a manager of a club, instilling principles that endure long term, yes. On the pitch, I think Poch was proactive and Frank is reactive. People may use those words differently, but as defined in the context of football coaching reactive is surely most commonly used to describe being more concerned with stopping the opposition versus imposing your own style of play?

Frank is proactive in going about instilling his principles, his method and approach to football, but it’s inherently a reactive approach.

I think that's my point that people aren't getting. Frank and any manager will have a philosophy. The reactive part to the strengths and weaknesses of the opposition is at the fringe, not the core of their tactics. It's the tweaking that gets best of both worlds.

You seem to talk like Frank being reactive to the opposition is the core of his tactics. It really isn't. It's the last 20% to enable his own philosophy of how he wants his teams to play. I would argue that he hasn't found that formula yet based on what we've seen. It's in there somewhere though and he's waiting for the breakthroughs to happen.

I think we will eventually see Frank imposing his tactics on teams whilst constraining their own tactics. That is why he was hired and what you have to be in this current PL. Unfortunately, the PL has gone way too tactical and is becoming as dull as ditchwater, Even Pep has completely reined in all his free flowing football. It's functional, and Pep will be focusing more on the opposition than ever.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We both know the reality here. Let’s not get off of reality trying to prove a point.

Ange had one way of playing - until he had to change it maybe under pressure from players - see VDVs interview. Trying to claim that his press had any nuance and tactical dexterity to it because Ange was busted, is a little far fetched.

This is no criticism of Ange, one of the biggest compliments we can give him is he did what it took to win. I am glad we stuck with him. Just about, we got it done. But his press resembled a school yard game of football, sometimes you’d see multiple players closing the same man, as you’d see in a playground because there wasn’t coordination. It was ‘sprint to close the ball down at all cost’. And that cost was a room full of injured players.

I don't see how any manager can take a team with a press that resembled a 'school yard game of football' to a 5th place finish in the PL.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't see how any manager can take a team with a press that resembled a 'school yard game of football' to a 5th place finish in the PL.

That is strange as you watched it. Was it sustainable?

 

[Finney Is Back]

With 2, I think it was a major reversal in tactics that won us the trophy. It wasn't a tweaking from the normal Ange philosophy we'd seen for 18 months. It was a switch to sitting deep and playing on the counter, as opposed to the high press. It worked a treat as well. The problem seem to be that we couldn't find any middle ground across all comps with our tactics. We'll never know whether Ange could have done in season 3. To some of us, it didn't look that likely to be fair.

With 3 I just looked at the PL. This year is 23 goals conceded and last year was 26 goals after 18 games but ended up being 65 at the end of the season. I assume you were looking across all comps. I also think you might be overlooking Udogie. We haven't exactly had our full compliment of first choices all season. That lack of leftie balance is important in my opinion. We certainly haven't had an injury crisis though and perhaps we can give Frank and his staff some credit for that.

With 4, I do think with the pods you seem to be a bit down on Frank. As you know I always felt you gave Ange a lot of slack. Does that perhaps make you a sterotypical Spurs dreamer? Perhaps you want to jump straight to Brazil football to use an old term in our lifetimes. I think you get the way I think. If you don't have a solid defensive basis, everything is mostly irrelevant in football. Which is why I loved the 16/17 season under Poch. 26 goals conceded and 86 scored is the Spurs I want to see again. It took Poch a while to build that. No way Frank can build that in 6 months to be fair.

I think there has been a bit of hindsight revisionism here. IMO It was only really in the final and the second leg of the Frankfurt qtr final when we did this.... and on both occasions we only really did it after we went 1 goal up.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Arsenal playing real football?.....yes they tried that BUT have moved to whatever gonads will get them over the line, and unfortunately dragging the PL 'product' down the drain with them, as copycats jump on the bandwagon.

I think Arsenal do a bit of everything. Yes they know how to win ugly but it isn't the only way that they win. Their first instinct in most games is to dominate the opposition, possession and play the game in the other team's half. In games against a team like Emirates Marketing Project they will instead look to play deep, narrow and counter.

 

[Finney Is Back]

That is strange as you watched it. Was it sustainable?

Interestingly enough, in season two our pressing was less intense than in season one and more situational. Our metrics in that first part of the season were all better than the season before until we got that burst of horrible injuries.