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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Isn’t it funny, new manager comes in:
“He will need time”
“First season with Brentford was about setting a structure, then building on being expansive”
“Players are going to have to switch from all out to think about defence”
“It took time to get his tactics to be flexible to different styles”

Then we have spurs fans after 10 games:
“He has no ideas”
“It’s the tactics”
“He’s rubbish, xx manager was better”
“Bring back Poch”
“Next shiny manager must be the answer”

Seriously, it’s kinda sad and people need to get a grip. End of the season, see if we have had any progression, look at the players we bring in and how that changes things, look to the creative players we have coming back and look at how we start next season because if you expect us winning 85% of games this season your setting yourselves up for misery!!!
 
Bishop said:
See I agree about us not even being particularly solid but I think thats a part of it. We can't even be really be solid when we play for it, so imagine if we are bit more open? Well we saw that last season under Ange. 😅

I do think we can be more progressive undoubtedly but I have less faith in the capability of these players to actually do it well. See for me I think a large part of the passing malaise is well down to the players themselves. I mean just look at what the options are. Who exactly out of all of our options is the player who is supposed to put their foot on the ball and dictate? Who is the one to set a tempo? I don't see that as anyone's strength. Ange mitigated that by playing in much smaller spaces so players more often had a short passing option available but even then we still struggled to break teams down, mostly just played the ball sideways and backwards.

Edit: let's say we do try and play more progressive football. Who are they passing too? There's no one on the left. If Richy is playing he'll probably lying on the floor somewhere and Kudus is getting triple marked.

We need changes makeup of the team as much as we need changes in the structure.
Click to expand...
Honestly I've been in agreement with you about the quality and lopsidedness of this squad for some time. But nonetheless the football we are currently playing is not reflective of the quality of the squad, they aren't that bad that they can't play some football on the floor and have some movement - they aren't even doing the basics. That's on Frank, it's not sustainable in terms of gaining points or in terms of keeping the fans on his side - we are a horrible watch right now.

He deserves time to sort it out, especially like you mention because of the misgivings of the squad. But he has to find a happy medium in terms of style because we all know how modern football works and Spurs fans just won't take to this for long....
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
There's a narrative, that you're a defensive coach, a pragmatist who can tweak things but maybe not such a front foot kind of coach. Are you surprised by that, given your record with Brentford in your career?

I think it depends on whose narrative that is. The journalists? A few fans? I guess we have quite a few fans out there so I guess the ones who write on social media. I’m not on social media. I’m very aware we haven’t been free flowing, in some games, I think there’s definitely been some moments where we’ve been quite good. It’s something we work very hard on every single day. It’s fair to say every team I’ve managed, we’ve been able to score a lot of goals. Also a Brentford team with let’s say on paper lesser players, creating a lot of top goal scorers. I’m convinced we will do the same here. I think it’s fair to say we are also working very hard on it. The players are doing everything they can and it’s my job with the coaches to make sure they hit good relations, good structure and can be confident.



This question and answer from the presser just now is interesting and I’m not sure it’s the answer I’d want. He doesn’t actually answer the core question around being front foot. Because a team can score lots of goals and develop good attacking players while being a reactive side. I understand why he would want to remind people of some of the good from Brentford, but I’d want to hear some more in depth thoughts on his ideas for making the game.
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It's the answer you'll get and the answer you should get.

What's the point (from his pov) of going 'in depth' on anything. It will only be held against him.

These interviews are for journalists who spew out nothing remotely 'in depth', closely followed by the SM experts/kittens/regurgitators looking for any juicy morsel to smash the click counter.
Both with the aim to get supporters frothing (not in a good way) and the negative feedback loop can continue.

Benign and straight bat TF. Nothing else.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I think Arteta can rightfully claim that they have a good possssikn game, but have unlocked set pieces as a way to break teams down. Right now we can’t claim the same. It’s bad in possession and set pieces are the only thing we have.
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Thank fudge he's got to that point after the luxury of 5 seasons :)

Tbf I think Arteta tried to play City/Liverpool at their own game and kept coming up short, so, although it's a brutal way of playing, he had to explore every avenue if he needed an edge, or hope of succeeding over them.
 
Confidence plays an enormous part in how we play.
A confident player knocks a simple pass and moves and collects it and lays it off to someone else and you are already in on goal. It really isn't some 47 step process to construct an attack, it is just 3 or 4 passes in 10 seconds and you are in.

Conversely, a player without confidence just knocks it backwards, and the opposition immediately grow in confidence and pushes on with vigour.

Our players absolutely CAN play good football when they have that confidence.
 
Bullet said:
Confidence plays an enormous part in how we play.
A confident player knocks a simple pass and moves and collects it and lays it off to someone else and you are already in on goal. It really isn't some 47 step process to construct an attack, it is just 3 or 4 passes in 10 seconds and you are in.

Conversely, a player without confidence just knocks it backwards, and the opposition immediately grow in confidence and pushes on with vigour.

Our players absolutely CAN play good football when they have that confidence.
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Trust or belief is needed to gain confidence
The players have it believe in or trust the way they are meant to play is gonna work
I dont see that at all
Managers like conte and Ange are larger than life but instilled a way of playing the players brought into very very quickly
Poch did some of his fire walking but needed the young players to step in
Not sure what the evolution is gonna be with Frank
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Thank fudge he's got to that point after the luxury of 5 seasons :)

Tbf I think Arteta tried to play City/Liverpool at their own game and kept coming up short, so, although it's a brutal way of playing, he had to explore every avenue if he needed an edge, or hope of succeeding over them.
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I massively agree with all of this. I’m all about giving a manager time.

I wanted to give Ange time. And I’m very happy to give Frank time. I’m not really talking about whether Frank is good or not, or whether he can be successful at the top level, I’m talking about his instincts and how that relates to what we’ve seen, and the evolution of what we might see.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
It's the answer you'll get and the answer you should get.

What's the point (from his pov) of going 'in depth' on anything. It will only be held against him.

These interviews are for journalists who spew out nothing remotely 'in depth', closely followed by the SM experts/kittens/regurgitators looking for any juicy morsel to smash the click counter.
Both with the aim to get supporters frothing (not in a good way) and the negative feedback loop can continue.

Benign and straight bat TF. Nothing else.
Click to expand...

There’s no point to any of it other than to churn out content, but it does give an insight into how these guys think.

I’m really not saying I ‘wanted’ something super in depth, I’m just saying that he actually did give an answer, and that answer tells us something about his instincts. Other managers would be more about philosophising how the game should be played in their eyes. He was very much ‘we scored goals there, we’ll score goals here’. I’m just saying it wasn’t quite the question he was asked.
 
Some of the hyperbolic 'our fans are tossers they're all over him give him time/ just because we lost, etc' stuff suggests that every post that doesn't just say 'he needs time and everyone needs to be patient' and nothing else MUST mean that postee is saying 'sack him'.


Let ME be clear for myself anyway.

I believe that on principle alone he should be given time.
Personally, I think every manager should get two seasons and be evaluated after that.

TF will (IMO) not get that time whatsoever; I think he will get the season (personally this is appropriate IMO).

PERSONALLY, I have only one question, and that is whether TF is going to develop a style of play which gets closer to the ethos of how I believe we should play, or whether he will simply look to do the current stuff he is doing better and with stronger players? The answer to that question will take time for sure, so patience has to follow.

I remain concerned that he does not fully gauge exactly where he is with regards to Tottenham Hotspur and not Brentford; we are a cruel and relentless club. You don't get the luxury of time.

We also have no idea how Vivienne Lewis is going to react.
New waters for all of us.

There is so much to feel sorry for TF for... between boardroom changes and injuries plus the off-field stuff we don't know which is going on. It's enormous. Add to that how TF has a squad, which for the first time in decades does not include a 'bail out superstar' and it is a lot for him to navigate. I sincerely want him to do so as I think is an utterly decent man.

Of course I want us to win matches.
But I want us to win matches with style and our way.

In that sense, I hope that by New Year, he is visibly working towards that.
What I fear is that with Man Utd and Arsenal coming up, plus Liverpool in Dec, the fixture list is not being kind to a man who puts great stock in slow and steady security.

He is going to have to let the handbrake off IMO, and gamble a bit more; that is if he knows how to.
We shall see.
 
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ricky2tricky4city said:
It's the answer you'll get and the answer you should get.

What's the point (from his pov) of going 'in depth' on anything. It will only be held against him.

These interviews are for journalists who spew out nothing remotely 'in depth', closely followed by the SM experts/kittens/regurgitators looking for any juicy morsel to smash the click counter.
Both with the aim to get supporters frothing (not in a good way) and the negative feedback loop can continue.

Benign and straight bat TF. Nothing else.
Click to expand...

I disagree mate. He should, IMO, be savvier and less 'nice'. Flat-bat it. The moment you mention what you did in terms of devloping goalscorers art Brentford, you're essentially answering the question with some depth i.e. at Brentford he largely executed the system he is employing with us. It further suggested to me that he didn't have an grasp on what people are asking; it's not just about creating Toneys and Wissas, it's
about how you create them.

I personally thought the journalists in this presser were very reasonable and polite compared to how they've treated other managers (which TF deserves - he's a good chap it appears).

I think he needs to play these pressers smarter overall; surely you caught the moment when he said the stadium could've been more supportive at the end? THAT is great, OK, agreed, but to then add (and I paraphrase) 'that could've been the difference in getting a good point' was utterly unnecessary AND missed (again) the wider issue that the way we're playing is so boring.
 
I’ll say something in Frank’s favour having watched Carragher on MNF. I thought his analysis was really interesting. There’s a good chance the issue is confidence in the approach, and so while the general approach likely isn’t going to drastically change under Frank, the players confidence and level of execution of it will improve, and it will make things look better.

There were examples where a midfielder could have taken a ball on the turn and pushed forward, but instead they passed back. There were examples of how the defenders could have made the pitch bigger, or offered an option quicker to teammates under pressure, but instead took up the more conservative position.

So there’s a way of looking at this where Frank could quite reasonably say, yes he’s prioritised a solid defence but it doesn’t mean we don’t take the right opportunities when they come. Or show urgency to offer passing options to get around the press. In the same way that Ange was disappointed in the players not being smarter in the 3-2 loss at Brighton. It’s one thing to have an attacking culture, but it’s still about being smart in the right moments. He wasn’t asking for naivety. And while Frank has said he’s prioritised the defence, it doesn’t mean he’s asking for the players to not take the right opportunities when they arise.

So in that sense, I think it’s the players being a bit confused about the right time to do certain things, and that is probably putting a dent in the confidence. It doesn’t really answer the question of what Frank thinks about seizing the initiative, but it does offer a path to seeing how, even if this is the plan, it can be executed in a way that looks a lot better,
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I’ll say something in Frank’s favour having watched Carragher on MNF. I thought his analysis was really interesting. There’s a good chance the issue is confidence in the approach, and so while the general approach likely isn’t going to drastically change under Frank, the players confidence and level of execution of it will improve, and it will make things look better.

There were examples where a midfielder could have taken a ball on the turn and pushed forward, but instead they passed back. There were examples of how the defenders could have made the pitch bigger, or offered an option quicker to teammates under pressure, but instead took up the more conservative position.

So there’s a way of looking at this where Frank could quite reasonably say, yes he’s prioritised a solid defence but it doesn’t mean we don’t take the right opportunities when they come. Or show urgency to offer passing options to get around the press. In the same way that Ange was disappointed in the players not being smarter in the 3-2 loss at Brighton. It’s one thing to have an attacking culture, but it’s still about being smart in the right moments. He wasn’t asking for naivety. And while Frank has said he’s prioritised the defence, it doesn’t mean he’s asking for the players to not take the right opportunities when they arise.

So in that sense, I think it’s the players being a bit confused about the right time to do certain things, and that is probably putting a dent in the confidence. It doesn’t really answer the question of what Frank thinks about seizing the initiative, but it does offer a path to seeing how, even if this is the plan, it can be executed in a way that looks a lot better,
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This is so, so important. And it is down to coaching and management.

If this approach does improve thanks to confidence and better coaching, the next question will be whether winning in this way is acceptable in the long-term, whether winning in this way is the way modern football is, or whether we also want attractive football with our points...
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I’ll say something in Frank’s favour having watched Carragher on MNF. I thought his analysis was really interesting. There’s a good chance the issue is confidence in the approach, and so while the general approach likely isn’t going to drastically change under Frank, the players confidence and level of execution of it will improve, and it will make things look better.

There were examples where a midfielder could have taken a ball on the turn and pushed forward, but instead they passed back. There were examples of how the defenders could have made the pitch bigger, or offered an option quicker to teammates under pressure, but instead took up the more conservative position.

So there’s a way of looking at this where Frank could quite reasonably say, yes he’s prioritised a solid defence but it doesn’t mean we don’t take the right opportunities when they come. Or show urgency to offer passing options to get around the press. In the same way that Ange was disappointed in the players not being smarter in the 3-2 loss at Brighton. It’s one thing to have an attacking culture, but it’s still about being smart in the right moments. He wasn’t asking for naivety. And while Frank has said he’s prioritised the defence, it doesn’t mean he’s asking for the players to not take the right opportunities when they arise.

So in that sense, I think it’s the players being a bit confused about the right time to do certain things, and that is probably putting a dent in the confidence. It doesn’t really answer the question of what Frank thinks about seizing the initiative, but it does offer a path to seeing how, even if this is the plan, it can be executed in a way that looks a lot better,
Click to expand...
My question would be why are the players not turning in those situations, why are they not taking up less conservative positions in those situations.

To me it looks like that's what's been coached into them since Frank came in.

We have some players that are naturally more conservative, Palhinha for example. But Bentancur, VdV, Spence aren't. They've showed themselves repeatedly in the past to want to play with risk, being less conservative.

The confusion will set in when/if Frank tells them to play a more ambitious and riskier style. That's where we'll have 1-3 months of adjusting with players getting used to that way of playing and struggling with their decision making on when to take more risk and when to be more conservative. I'd argue that's perhaps what we saw already against Chelsea.

If I'm right about that (big massive if) will Frank continue down that path or will he revert to safety first risk avoidance conservative?
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
It's the answer you'll get and the answer you should get.

What's the point (from his pov) of going 'in depth' on anything. It will only be held against him.

These interviews are for journalists who spew out nothing remotely 'in depth', closely followed by the SM experts/kittens/regurgitators looking for any juicy morsel to smash the click counter.
Both with the aim to get supporters frothing (not in a good way) and the negative feedback loop can continue.

Benign and straight bat TF. Nothing else.
Click to expand...
I agree.

The question is, is this "who we are mate". But 95% of managers won't just come out and say that. (Not saying right or wrong, not looking to rehash Ange, just saying that Frank probably won't just say "yeah, we're going to play lower risk, get used to it" even if true).

It doesn’t matter what he says in press conferences, or it matters exceptionally little. We'll see over the coming months what's being worked on and what isn't. Through that he'll tell us.
 
thfcsteff said:
Some of the hyperbolic 'our fans are tossers they're all over him give him time/ just because we lost, etc' stuff suggests that every post that doesn't just say 'he needs time and everyone needs to be patient' and nothing else MUST mean that postee is saying 'sack him'.


Let ME be clear for myself anyway.

I believe that on principle alone he should be given time.
Personally, I think every manager should get two seasons and be evaluated after that.

TF will (IMO) not get that time whatsoever; I think he will get the season (personally this is appropriate IMO).

PERSONALLY, I have only one question, and that is whether TF is going to develop a style of play which gets closer to the ethos of how I believe we should play, or whether he will simply look to do the current stuff he is doing better and with stronger players? The answer to that question will take time for sure, so patience has to follow.

I remain concerned that he does not fully gauge exactly where he is with regards to Tottenham Hotspur and not Brentford; we are a cruel and relentless club. You don't get the luxury of time.

We also have no idea how Vivienne Lewis is going to react.
New waters for all of us.

There is so much to feel sorry for TF for... between boardroom changes and injuries plus the off-field stuff we don't know which is going on. It's enormous. Add to that how TF has a squad, which for the first time in decades does not include a 'bail out superstar' and it is a lot for him to navigate. I sincerely want him to do so as I think is an utterly decent man.

Of course I want us to win matches.
But I want us to win matches with style and our way.

In that sense, I hope that by New Year, he is visibly working towards that.
What I fear is that with Man Utd and Arsenal coming up, plus Liverpool in Dec, the fixture list is not being kind to a man who puts great stock in slow and steady security.

He is going to have to let the handbrake off IMO, and gamble a bit more; that is if he knows how to.
We shall see.
Click to expand...
Was going to say this very thing the other day, feels like you need to asterix every post where you dare be critical of the fantastic football we have been playing with 'but he deserves the time to change things'. A post talking about need to not expect to win 85% of games, who on earth has said anything close to that?! It wasn't anything to do with losing to Chelsea, we are Spurs fans who are used to seeing this every season. It was the performance, the cluelessness of what to do with the football - and this has been coming for weeks, with consistent patterns of long balls sideways passing and no imagination going forward whatsoever.

He has to come up with something different, we have more difficult fixtures coming up now - who knows maybe that will actually play into our hands somewhat. Really want to get behind him, he comes across so well in interviews but he has to show a style of play that can get on board with....
 
thfcsteff said:
I disagree mate. He should, IMO, be savvier and less 'nice'. Flat-bat it. The moment you mention what you did in terms of devloping goalscorers art Brentford, you're essentially answering the question with some depth i.e. at Brentford he largely executed the system he is employing with us. It further suggested to me that he didn't have an grasp on what people are asking; it's not just about creating Toneys and Wissas, it's
about how you create them.

I personally thought the journalists in this presser were very reasonable and polite compared to how they've treated other managers (which TF deserves - he's a good chap it appears).

I think he needs to play these pressers smarter overall; surely you caught the moment when he said the stadium could've been more supportive at the end? THAT is great, OK, agreed, but to then add (and I paraphrase) 'that could've been the difference in getting a good point' was utterly unnecessary AND missed (again) the wider issue that the way we're playing is so boring.
Click to expand...
Tbh I've not watched it. And was going on what BoL was saying about wanting more detail.

I think we are agreeing if your 'flat bat' is the same as my 'straight bat'?

Generally speaking, this element of a manager's 'duties' serves them no purpose. There's next to zero ROI for them.
 
Interesting that TF just did an interview with Ben Haines, for SpursPlay, reviewing Cheatski and looking forwards to tonight.

It finishes with TF saying TWICE that “as always, players need to be brave, play forwards”.

!!!
 
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