Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Silly McSilly Face]

I would guess it means different things to different people, but I would saying being English/British is about politeness, being a nation with liberal values and norms, being a mostly secular nation, a tradition of literary and musical heritage, football/sport.

I think there is anger towards the government for immigration. But also for the asylum seekers themselves. I think most right thinking people just want people who come here to work hard and also to learn and speak the language. It always annoys me when Brits go abroad and make no effort to speak the lingo, just learning the basics like “please” “good afternoon” “thank you” and “can I have the bill please” go a long way with the locals in any country I find. And it’s equally annoying when people come to this country and speak little or poor English.

Britain isn't a secular nation and never has been. In fact, up until the 17th century religious minorities (mostly Catholics) were actively persecuted by Parliament with a variety of laws passed to deny them basic rights.

However, from the 18th century the rights of "non-conformists" have been recognised and protected.

Constitutionally the country isn't officially or legally aligned to a particular religion, largely because there is no written constitution but the Monarch (head of state) is the Govenor and head of The Church of England. The Church have permanent representation in the House of Lords and state schools align to the church of England in terms of ritual prayer and calendar events.

But I wouldn't say secularism or tolerance for religious diversity characterises British culture. You only have to see the recent (within a few hundred years) persecution of Catholics and the still-current issues with sectarian violence particularly in Scotland and Northern Ireland to evidence that.

If i was to think of countries whose values are actively secular i'd think of France and Turkey as two examples...

 

[Jurgen the German]

Britain isn't a secular nation and never has been. In fact, up until the 17th century religious minorities (mostly Catholics) were actively persecuted by Parliament with a variety of laws passed to deny them basic rights.

However, from the 18th century the rights of "non-conformists" have been recognised and protected.

Constitutionally the country isn't officially or legally aligned to a particular religion, largely because there is no written constitution but the Monarch (head of state) is the Govenor and head of The Church of England. The Church have permanent representation in the House of Lords and state schools align to the church of England in terms of ritual prayer and calendar events.

But I wouldn't say secularism or tolerance for religious diversity characterises British culture. You only have to see the recent (within a few hundred years) persecution of Catholics and the still-current issues with sectarian violence particularly in Scotland and Northern Ireland to evidence that.

If i was to think of countries whose values are actively secular i'd think of France and Turkey as two examples...

Maybe not officially as the king is head of the Church of England for example. But unofficially we are not a religious country compared to America or even our European counterparts like Italy.

 

[johnola]

Maybe not officially as the king is head of the Church of England for example. But unofficially we are not a religious country compared to America or even our European counterparts like Italy.

We are a Christian nation where the Churches role has been taken over by government and the link to the past via scripture is gone.

And now people are not reminded every Sunday to be kind and help others. Nor that helping others is rarely letting them do whatever the hell they like.

The modern equivalent to heaven now is a 45 year civil service pension.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Being polite isn't a British value. It's pretty global dude. Liberal values is too broad. How does someone who needs to learn the language know what they have to do to keep the locals from burning stuff down other than break the law is my question.

And language. It takes time to learn. And ability. Not everyone has that.

Being overly polite is a British thing I’d say. Maybe not uniquely British but we are known for being reserved and polite. Liberal values in the sense of how we typically treat women, minorities, our views on equality etc. I honestly don’t know how to answer the part of I highlighted in bold.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Being overly polite is a British thing I’d say. Maybe not uniquely British but we are known for being reserved and polite. Liberal values in the sense of how we typically treat women, minorities, our views on equality etc. I honestly don’t know how to answer the part of I highlighted in bold.

I know. And I wish I knew the answer.

Also if someone comes from a culture that isn't the same as yours. But they don't harm anyone or break any laws I think people should leave them alone.

If you are white and born here and held abhorrent illiberal views and were not polite but didn't break any laws that's fine according to this it seems. It only applies if you look different?

 

[LutonSpurs]

We are a Christian nation where the Churches role has been taken over by government and the link to the past via scripture is gone.

And now people are not reminded every Sunday to be kind and help others. Nor that helping others is rarely letting them do whatever the hell they like.

The modern equivalent to heaven now is a 45 year civil service pension.

This is my country and I'm not Christian. It's a country full of people with varying faiths. There's some semantics about the royals and CofE but that is not a reflection of the values here in my opinion. Most people are agnostic anyway.

 

[johnola]

This is my country and I'm not Christian. It's a country full of people with varying faiths. There's some semantics about the royals and CofE but that is not a reflection of the values here in my opinion. Most people are agnostic anyway

It is not Semantics. The evidence, if you really need any, is built at the centre of every community up and down this island and they are adorned with spires and crosses.

All the key events in people’s lives for 1500 years took place inside them.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It is not Semantics. The evidence, if you really need any, is built at the centre of every community up and down this island and they are adorned with spires and crosses.

All the key events in people’s lives for 1500 years took place inside them.

Historically maybe but I don’t think that reflects religion in the UK today in 2025.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

I questioned someone on the Nextdoor app who on a thread about asylum seekers being housed in a local apartment block (they are not), said “But in England traditions are no longer allowed it seems. Generally if English people go to foreign countries they generally abide by the country’s beliefs but our government makes the English people ‘seem’ racist for practising our culture”. (I have done a lot of tidying up on spelling and punctuation!).
So I asked this poster what English traditions are no longer allowed and what are the cultural practices that now seem racist.
The answer I got back was “showing the country’s flag for starters”.
So I did comment that I would never have thought that showing a flag was a particular English tradition or cultural practice but asked in any case who or what has stopped her from doing this. Surprisingly no answer thus far.
If the best example you can come up with is not being allowed to display an English flag, then maybe things aren’t really that bad.

 

[johnola]

Historically maybe but I don’t think that reflects religion in the UK today in 2025.

As I said before it is all political now. And those religions that aren’t in the power want to be and when they are digested hopefully it will all be gone and good riddance.

 

[glasgowspur]

I questioned someone on the Nextdoor app who on a thread about asylum seekers being housed in a local apartment block (they are not), said “But in England traditions are no longer allowed it seems. Generally if English people go to foreign countries they generally abide by the country’s beliefs but our government makes the English people ‘seem’ racist for practising our culture”. (I have done a lot of tidying up on spelling and punctuation!).
So I asked this poster what English traditions are no longer allowed and what are the cultural practices that now seem racist.
The answer I got back was “showing the country’s flag for starters”.
So I did comment that I would never have thought that showing a flag was a particular English tradition or cultural practice but asked in any case who or what has stopped her from doing this. Surprisingly no answer thus far.
If the best example you can come up with is not being allowed to display an English flag, then maybe things aren’t really that bad.

I've made my views on flags clear elsewhere so I'm not defending this person and without all the info and background I'm not judging in either direction.
But there is a stigma with flying a flag, yes it has been hijacked by one side but that doesn't mean anyone flying a flag is a right wing nutter.
That is the perception, I even see it alluded to on here, and I can understand why some people may get the impression that flying the flag is going to be frowned upon. It's a small leap from that to "we can't".
There's a similar scenario up here where the independence movement has captured the Saltire and flying either it or a union Jack automatically labels you.

 

[LutonSpurs]

It is not Semantics. The evidence, if you really need any, is built at the centre of every community up and down this island and they are adorned with spires and crosses.

All the key events in people’s lives for 1500 years took place inside them.

It used to be a Christian country. And before the 1500 years it was something else. Right now it's something else.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Maybe not officially as the king is head of the Church of England for example. But unofficially we are not a religious country compared to America or even our European counterparts like Italy.

Secularism refers to a separation of religion from the state and something that is reserved for private matters. It isn't a reflection on how religious or observant a country is. "No religion" is the majority choice on census forms in the UK, but the same parents will actively participate in an annual nativity at school, whereas in a country that practices secularism the idea of a state school holding a religious celebration would likely raise the hackles.

 

[glasgowspur]

Secularism refers to a separation of religion from the state and something that is reserved for private matters. It isn't a reflection on how religious or observant a country is. "No religion" is the majority choice on census forms in the UK, but the same parents will actively participate in an annual nativity at school, whereas in a country that practices secularism the idea of a state school holding a religious celebration would likely raise the hackles.

Nativity plays are a tradition, for most they have lost their original message and are now little more than a touchstone to their own childhood.
As could be said for most of the Christmas and Easter rituals.
The most important family in these traditions are your own, not the holy one, most people have come to realise that.

 

[thfcsteff]

@johnola @LutonSpurs...I actually think you're both in total agreement on the fundamental principle (at one time, whether church on Sunday or sitting room on Tuesdays) of people being reminded to be decent to each other and always try to do the best by the society they live in FOR the society they live with no exceptions. Whatever the platform for that was/is, there is absolutely no doubt that it appears to have been severely marginalized.
It is awful.

 

[Baleforce]

I've made my views on flags clear elsewhere so I'm not defending this person and without all the info and background I'm not judging in either direction.
But there is a stigma with flying a flag, yes it has been hijacked by one side but that doesn't mean anyone flying a flag is a right wing nutter.
That is the perception, I even see it alluded to on here, and I can understand why some people may get the impression that flying the flag is going to be frowned upon. It's a small leap from that to "we can't".
There's a similar scenario up here where the independence movement has captured the Saltire and flying either it or a union Jack automatically labels you.

I’m nearly 50, I don’t think I saw a flown St George’s Cross for the first 30 years of my life, always Union Flags instead.

England Football and cricket fans would have Union flags in the 80’s 90’s in my mind (I may be misremembering).

Something changed at some point with Football, but the wider shift strongly suggests something sinister to me, even more so since Brexit, and it’s ratcheted up again in recent months.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I questioned someone on the Nextdoor app who on a thread about asylum seekers being housed in a local apartment block (they are not), said “But in England traditions are no longer allowed it seems. Generally if English people go to foreign countries they generally abide by the country’s beliefs but our government makes the English people ‘seem’ racist for practising our culture”. (I have done a lot of tidying up on spelling and punctuation!).
So I asked this poster what English traditions are no longer allowed and what are the cultural practices that now seem racist.
The answer I got back was “showing the country’s flag for starters”.
So I did comment that I would never have thought that showing a flag was a particular English tradition or cultural practice but asked in any case who or what has stopped her from doing this. Surprisingly no answer thus far.
If the best example you can come up with is not being allowed to display an English flag, then maybe things aren’t really that bad.

I think there are unfortunately examples that create this belief which are valid. The best example is the 12 year old girl given a dressing down and sent to the headmaster's office for coming to an event about celebrating culture dressed in a union jack dress and with a speech celebrating British culture. Another good example is actually a post in this very thread where someone said that if they see someone flying a flag from their car or outside their house they assume they're an EDL scumbag and avoid them.

So it is not that legally people cannot fly a flag or express pride in their own country and traditions, but that a feeling has developed that the political and intellectual class in this country frown on such behaviour, label the people that do so and that displaying such beliefs such as pride in their own country and national and cultural identity can create problems, even with authorities such as schools. And there are enough examples to suggest that this feeling isn't totally unjustified.

I was myself on a teams call at work when someone referred to a photo of some customers in promotional literature as "gammons". As a white, middle aged person in my early 40s with skin that happens to be similar to gammon in colour I sat and said nothing about this derogatory comment aimed at people like me. Nobody else batted an eyelid either. If I had said a similar sort of comment about a photo featuring black or asian people, I imagine the outcome and reaction would be markedly different.

 

[LutonSpurs]

So it is not that legally people cannot fly a flag or express pride in their own country and traditions, but that a feeling has developed that the political and intellectual class in this country frown on such behaviour, label the people that do so and that displaying such beliefs such as pride in their own country and national and cultural identity can create problems, even with authorities such as schools. And there are enough examples to suggest that this feeling isn't totally unjustified.

So a feeling has developed that flying the flag has been frowned upon. And this is a protest against the feeling which has come from the odd anecdote. Also probably clever incitement by the very people who made Brexit vote a success. Sounds like an absolutely ridiculously childish reaction to something which isn't really a thing. But paint away lol.

 

[thfcsteff]

I know. And I wish I knew the answer.

Also if someone comes from a culture that isn't the same as yours. But they don't harm anyone or break any laws I think people should leave them alone.

If you are white and born here and held abhorrent illiberal views and were not polite but didn't break any laws that's fine according to this it seems. It only applies if you look different?

It is a massive question.
I think the first step is to desaturate/remove the fear (and fear mongering) involved in all these matters. The use of fear and tropes are the most consistent element I see across the board. When things are 'different' to that which people 'know' the general reaction encouraged these days seems to be 'protectionist' and 'fearful' rather than welcoming and curious. As opposed to 'innocent until proven guilty' we are increasingly seeing the 'promotion' of 'protect first ask questions later'.
It is very, very dangerous. It encourages beliefs which I genuinely believe the vast majority of people don't have, and social media is terrible for spreading this specific virus.

I remember being in Gaborone, Botswana back in 2019, in what was said to be a 'dodgy' part of town, on a Saturday night in a local bar/club. Me and the camera man I was with were literally the only white people in the venue and (indeed) area. There were a few 'characters' out, but we had a great night, people were warm, friendly, curious and asked tons of questions. We didn't speak Setswana, but EVERYONE spoke English (something I have repeatedly found on my travels over the decades is how many people in so many countries speak English versus my paltry one-language-and-a-smidge-of-pigeon-here-and-there). Twice a couple of dodgy geezers made their way towards us, and they were immediately told to behave by everyone else. Everywhere I went in Botswana it was the same...

...the Britain I knew certainly had issues, like any country, and racism was awful at times in the 70s and 80s (as discussed here before) but there was always a kindness and openess among most people, almost a 'pride' in the sort of virtues that @Jurgen the German speaks of with regards to being welcoming and looking to integrate with others, whether foreign or just different.

Somewhere that's being lost. I think Cambridge Analytica and all that jazz was a key turning point. We are increasingly divided by digital makescapes.

I still find a small part of myself looking at the flag-shaggery and those involved and feeling sorry for them. IMO most of those people do not actively hate anyone more than their anger has overtaken them. Anger at where they are in life, anger at their economic situation, anger at the perpetuated tales of 'rape and invasion' which are thrust down their throats by evil, manipulative figures and entities. As those figures and entities conitnue to generate income and live grand lives from their fear, those very people are left to carry the can. Of hate and blame. I understand their frustrations to an extent. No-one can discuss any issue any more because there is no neutral ground on which to have a conversation about anything much. Click click click, spam spam spam, headline headline, these things continue to push everyone into protective corners, kill any discussion or potential common ground, and polarise us all.

I don't know what the answer to that problem is. I wish for a utopia where people can discuss things and come to common ground without fear being a factor. But truthfully, it is utopian. All I can do is try my best to find that common ground wherever possible whilst staying true to my core principles...

 

[Baleforce]

Am I reading too much into most of the flags being mounted half mast?

Are they claiming public tragedy, or just too thick and lazy to fly it properly?