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Ange departs

Ange departs.

  • In

    Votes: 80 42.1%
  • Out

    Votes: 110 57.9%

  • Total voters
    190
Dodgy linesman.
Ukrainian, if I remember correctly.

There were scandalous suggestions at the time that Ukrainians had no love for Germany because of WWII and that influenced his decision, but I think he made a split-second judgement and probably got it wrong.

To be fair, I still don't think the free kick West Germany was awarded that led to the last-gasp equaliser in regulation time should have been awarded, but I might be a tad biased ...

I think Sir Alf was of the same mind. His team talk before extra time went something like: "You've beaten these bastards once, now go out and beat them again".

Rousing stuff.

Of course, had he picked Greaves instead of Hurst we'd have won 5-2 ;)
 
Well I disagree in regards to the context of injuries. They were indeed bad but not unprecedented and in the end we didn't even finish top of the injury table. They certainly affected things but I would expect a top coach to be able to adapt and adjust to their circumstances.

Little things like if your speedster CB is missing you potentially drop your line say 10 yards. If you are constantly being killed on the far side overlap you maybe push a midfielder to cover that late run? There were a multitude of tiny little issues and errors that Ange simply never addressed disconnected from any injuries.

I know you have only recently returned to this board but it's been shown plenty of times already that pre any injury crisis our win/loss rate in the league was already at 50%. Injuries became a convenient escape value for those that didn't actually want to question and critique what we were seeing on the pitch. The form was poor way before any claim of an injury crisis can be claimed.

Ps. On Amorin if he continues to play 3 at the back while lacking the necessary players to actually fill the system. Then yes that would be a tactical failing and like Ange he would deserve the sack.

As a coach your fundamental role is to maximise the players available to you. If you can not do that then you are failing.

I won’t go back and forth on the injuries but I think the combination of the amount of them, at the time that they happened, alongside a game every 3 days schedule, that was pretty unprecedented. I don’t remember another team suffering like it, ever.

On Amorim, if adapting actually makes it harder to reap the benefits of his system over the long term, is he failing? Is short term pain for long term gain in football not a thing?
 
Something on Ange that I don’t see get discussed much (and that I think does him a disservice) is this idea that he should have adjusted more. But that is to misunderstand what exactly was ever going to make him successful to the extent that he wanted to be.

The thing with Ange, is that he has such unwavering belief in a system and principles of play, that he was never going to compromise completely on them. Nick Montgomery talks about this in an interview with an Aussie paper last week. He did adjust, but he could have adjusted more at the risk to the long term belief in the system and principles that he was building around, and that he hoped to get back to properly in his third season.

It’s like this: his system requires immense bravery and immense belief in it to carry off. The benefit is once everyone is locked in with it, it can lead to outsized results way beyond expectations. It requires doing something that no other team would be willing to dare to do, in order to get greater results than they thought possible. This is why players joined after speaking to him, and this is why they stayed behind him. It was belief in a bigger idea and something they were working towards.

If he compromised on that even more, it calls into question everything he was building towards. He absolutely did adjust the system for most of the last season, but as Montgomery says they didn’t fully adjust the principles. The reason being if you abandon them to be more pragmatic, just to fight your way back up to maybe 12th position, then it’s very difficult to go back there. You can’t ask the players to be braver than they’ve ever been as a non negotiable, and you can’t build a spirit around this idea that you are brave, if you are shown you are willing to abandon those principles yourself.

It’s this third prong that I don’t see talked about enough in discussion about our league form. It’s injuries, which lead to a focus on the Europa as the only way we can win something out of the season. But then it’s also caring about the long term plan he has with the team, and not wanting to abandon that. I have no doubt he could have been more pragmatic, and won a few more league games, but getting the players to adhere to extreme bravery in the next season would have then been the question. ETH abandoned a lot of his principles to be more pragmatic with United, and they looked bereft of identity. I see a lot of people saying Frank’s mix of ‘nice football most of the time, but pragmatic when he needs to be’ is the perfect mix for us at Spurs, as if it’s some cheat code that Ange or anyone else hasn’t thought of. It’s not a cheat code, it’s just another coaching choice with its own trade offs. We’ll have plenty of games where we don’t break teams down, but we’ll almost certainly be back in the top six at a minimum.

I was massively in favour of Ange because I liked his idea. That we were going to stand toe to toe with the biggest teams and try to win. That once he could have a settled side, with a deep enough experienced squad that knew how to play this way, we could really push beyond our place in the food chain in the same way we did with Poch. But we gave up on that. And it seems to me because either ENIC didn’t understand what Ange’s goal was with his decision making. Or that he was too much of a risk taker for them. They want the near certainty of top six money, not the riskier decisions that might ultimately lead us to getting more than that.
I get what you're saying and I also want to have a manager that has a clear vision and is given the time to implement it. But we were regressing. No sign of any improvement.

What would have convinced me is if we had won the EL playing Angeball. I get it that we had a lot of injuries and couldn't do so in the league and that when we finally had a fit squad we saved them for the EL. But we saved them only to play the same style a team with half its first XI out would play. And against much lower quality opposition to boot. To me that shows that the vision was not a sustainable one and, either Ange would have to reinvent himself, or we would need a different vision. Do we really believe Ange would reinvent himself? I don't think so and neither did the board, so a new manager was really the only way to go.
 
I get what you're saying and I also want to have a manager that has a clear vision and is given the time to implement it. But we were regressing. No sign of any improvement.

What would have convinced me is if we had won the EL playing Angeball. I get it that we had a lot of injuries and couldn't do so in the league and that when we finally had a fit squad we saved them for the EL. But we saved them only to play the same style a team with half its first XI out would play. And against much lower quality opposition to boot. To me that shows that the vision was not a sustainable one and, either Ange would have to reinvent himself, or we would need a different vision. Do we really believe Ange would reinvent himself? I don't think so and neither did the board, so a new manager was really the only way to go.
Surely winning a major trophy playing the way needed to win it was significant
Don’t forget we played that final missing thing our 3 most creative players
So adapting was massive
 
No, it's player ability and tactics. If you don't have the players for the tactics the. You've selected a poor framework to work from.
I agree. If you do not have the players you need for your tactics, you adjust your tactics to get the most out of your players. This doesn't mean you abandon your philosophy. It just means you will have to implement it gradually as you fill out your squad with the right players.
 
Disagree that dropped points at the beginning of the season weren't down to the system. They absolutely were down to the system. The system, even when functioning well and leading to dominance in games and chance creation is fundamentally a high risk system. It leaves space to be exploited. Teams in the PL are simply able to exploit that space on a far more frequent basis than opponents Ange has traditionally faced in his career. In those early games we did dominate possession and create chances. The chances we created were not high percentage chances where you'd be scoring 9/10 however we were putting teams under a lot of pressure. However:
- Vardy left in space: BANG 1-1
- Defensive line pushing right up at Saudi Sportswashing Machine, one ball splits them: BANG 1-2
- Gabriel given free run at goal: BANG 0-1
- Keep pushing high despite being 2-0 up away to Brighton: BANG BANG BANG 2-3

Need i go on?
Exactly this. His system was one where everything had to work flawlessly all the time. There was no margin for error. Unless you have 11 world class players out there, that is not going to happen. And even then that may not be enough (see this year's Barca). You need a system that is more forgiving and can absorb the occasional error without everything falling apart.
 
Exactly this. His system was one where everything had to work flawlessly all the time. There was no margin for error. Unless you have 11 world class players out there, that is not going to happen. And even then that may not be enough (see this year's Barca). You need a system that is more forgiving and can absorb the occasional error without everything falling apart.
It’s why with out financial limits you need a manager who will adapt
Frank does that
 
It’s why with out financial limits you need a manager who will adapt
Frank does that

Not necessarily - the right manager with the right tactics and the ability to get those ideas across can work with constraints but what they are implementing needs to work first and foremost.
 
Not necessarily - the right manager with the right tactics and the ability to get those ideas across can work with constraints but what they are implementing needs to work first and foremost.
Maybe in the past
But city have just shown that if you have a way of playing and you don’t have the right players, even with bottomless cash, you can struggle
So a manager adapts or gets the right players
 
Exactly this. His system was one where everything had to work flawlessly all the time. There was no margin for error. Unless you have 11 world class players out there, that is not going to happen. And even then that may not be enough (see this year's Barca). You need a system that is more forgiving and can absorb the occasional error without everything falling apart.

The thing is it did work fir his first 10 games. We transitioned from defence to attack very quickly.
Then it stopped working for whatever reason.
Then we became a more possession side without doing much.
By the end we just seemed a bit of a mess.
 
The thing is it did work fir his first 10 games. We transitioned from defence to attack very quickly.
Then it stopped working for whatever reason.
Then we became a more possession side without doing much.
By the end we just seemed a bit of a mess.
Right players
Right energy
Right timing
 
The thing is it did work fir his first 10 games. We transitioned from defence to attack very quickly.
Then it stopped working for whatever reason.
Then we became a more possession side without doing much.
By the end we just seemed a bit of a mess.
It even worked after the first 10 games, but only in patches. It's why I said it has to work flawlessly all the time and that's impossible. Not only because you need world class players, but also because other managers will figure it out and only need to frustrate your game just a little bit for the whole thing to fall apart. It's not a forgiving system.
 
The thing is it did work fir his first 10 games. We transitioned from defence to attack very quickly.
Then it stopped working for whatever reason.
Then we became a more possession side without doing much.
By the end we just seemed a bit of a mess.
I doubt what we saw in the first ten games was the design, far too early for a team to be up to speed and rolling out the managers ideas
 
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