Ange departs

[Silly McSilly Face]

Exactly this. His system was one where everything had to work flawlessly all the time. There was no margin for error. Unless you have 11 world class players out there, that is not going to happen. And even then that may not be enough (see this year's Barca). You need a system that is more forgiving and can absorb the occasional error without everything falling apart.

Yeah, it was evident in the first game this season. And I keep harping on about it but minute 1 in the cup tie away to Villa. We know Villa's strength is in their pace and goal threat up top and outside but we hitched our skirt with our right back and DM disappearing into the attacking third at the same time in the first minute and they duely gave us a good rogering......any system that consistently leaves players like Vardy and Ramsey unmarked and in acres of space is a sh*t system.....I don't care how much of the ball we had in the game or how our stats looked.....its like buying a Ferrari with an engine management light on at auction and when people go "but it misfires at 2000 revs" you go but doesnt it look so nice? And the Ange in crowd....what they're basically saying is to have faith that if you keep driving the Ferrari the misfire and warning light will dissappear........despite it getting worse over the 2 years you've owned the car....


You're bang on about everything having to go perfectly for the system to thrive. That's why we have this weird GD thing because basically when everything clicks we often murder teams, even good teams. If a game is tight, we often lose. And so if you're managing celtic you're very rarely in a tight game and the flaws in the system aren't regularly exposed. In the PL game for every game the opponent has a mare and you smash 3 or 4 in, you have another 9 games where it's a chess match where first goal is crucial and we so often lose those games under Ange

 

[Surfless]

That wasn’t an option it would have been finish 15th and go out to Frankfurt.

What I am saying is that we might have had better league results for some time before the frankfurt game but due to the load on the players we didn't get past them in the EL.

 

[Baleforce]

WTF was that then?

....some kind of Conte blowback?

There has been suggestion that the form shift happened when he had finally coached Conte’s defending out of them.

Did he not give them a gonading for playing keep ball in a friendly at some point?

 

[billyiddo]

WTF was that then?

....some kind of Conte blowback?

It was a mishmash, I think when you start a with a new manager it takes time for them to bed their ideas in, to get the players doing all the little things required throught the 90 minutes and in different situations and yes you also have overhang from the previous managers style and tactics that will need time to be forgotten. Old players eager to impress the new manager, new signings looking to stamp their presence on the team.


If you look at how Maddison played in those early games as an example, up and down the pitch involved in everything from box to box it's far removed from the far more narrow and confined game (figuratively) he's playing now - to me that's him coming in, trying to impress early doors and taking time to take on board what the manager requires of him in the role

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Exactly this. His system was one where everything had to work flawlessly all the time. There was no margin for error. Unless you have 11 world class players out there, that is not going to happen. And even then that may not be enough (see this year's Barca). You need a system that is more forgiving and can absorb the occasional error without everything falling apart.

I actually don't disagree with this point. I do think Ange's system required a lot of things to be in place to work well. Chief among them is Van De Ven being fit. Having full backs that could invert. And having a culture where immense bravery and the confidence to keep doing what is asked in spite of the pressure.

But I don't see how under ENIC we actually win the league any other way. I think we needed someone with an idea almost too 'out there' for most other coaches to try, because he had such unwavering belief in his ability to carry it through. People may say it worked in other places, but it wouldn't work here. To that I say it's all relative. The level of bravery required is the same, but he was previously asking players less talented than Maddison et al to carry it off, and asking them to do it against less talented opposition.

That's the lens I now look at everything this club does through - are we trying to win the league? Because otherwise I'm frankly bored of our status quo. It's always nice to watch young players develop and maybe we overachieve some years, but it feels like we're kind of being held in this position now because ENIC hasn't found a suitable buyer.

I don't really go in for Ange, or any manager, not understanding tactics, not knowing when he could adapt, not having a certain man track of a certain runner etc. I think most elite coaches know these things, but the reasons they do things like playing in a way that got us 17th in the league is because there is some element of long-term ambition, system comfort and culture building he was trying to reach. I liked the idea of having someone that was just relentlessly confident in his own ability and that of his players that he would really try and push beyond our status quo. It would be risky, it would be high variance, it would require a lot of things falling into place for it to work. But I frankly prefer that. The other side of the coin is hoping that Frank's balance and pragmatism over performs our wage structure to the same extent he has done with Brentford, and that's how we win the league. It requires Frank getting it right for 38 games. Let's see if it works.

 

[thfcsteff]

Sorry mate not sure I get your point? Just saying that there is context to this win compared to other finals. Not a direct comparison to those teams just that we were massive underdogs in those finals compared to the Europa League one. Can't see anything wrong in pointing that out?

Sorry mate, we were absolutely not 'massive underdogs' in 2019. In fact, many felt we'd win it. The truth is we did get our preparations wrong. I love Poch but he showed a lack of experience in the prep for that Final. We were also recipients of an absolutelty scandalous decision in the first minute! I remain convinced that despite the poor preparation (3 weeks with no game is too long) without that decision, we still would've won it.

 

[Robspur12]

Sorry mate, we were absolutely not 'massive underdogs' in 2019. In fact, many felt we'd win it. The truth is we did get our preparations wrong. I love Poch but he showed a lack of experience in the prep for that Final. We were also recipients of an absolutelty scandalous decision in the first minute! I remain convinced that despite the poor preparation (3 weeks with no game is too long) without that decision, we still would've won it.

Can’t agree that we were not massive underdogs for that final I’m afraid Steff. That Liverpool team were already outstanding and hitting their peak. They finished a full 26 points ahead of us in the league and pushed Emirates Marketing Project to a record breaking points total to win the league and then won the league themselves the following year. They also had the experience of being in the final the previous year. We had a returning Kane, a wantaway Eriksen, Moussa Sissoko as our main central midfielder. In fact they had already beaten us twice in the league and were the bookies favourites.

Even if our prep had been better, even without that penalty decision, it would have been a tall ask to win that final.

 

[Bullet]

Sorry mate, we were absolutely not 'massive underdogs' in 2019. In fact, many felt we'd win it. The truth is we did get our preparations wrong. I love Poch but he showed a lack of experience in the prep for that Final. We were also recipients of an absolutelty scandalous decision in the first minute! I remain convinced that despite the poor preparation (3 weeks with no game is too long) without that decision, we still would've won it.

Depends how you define 'massive underdogs', but I had no faith whatsoever we would beat that Liverpool side with our broken team shuffling along.

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm not going to discuss Ange in the Frank thread/compare them there...that'd be wrong.

I will say that I posted over there that I believe Frank will produce a side which is top 6 competitive and will be less 'edgy' to watch. We will be 'easier' in that sense on the eye, and it will sometimes be great no doubt, other times be bad no doubt.

More than anything, it is a safe appointment for the club that we are.

Ange represented something else. He was a maverick who in the end 'took on' his own 'directorship' with seemingly little regard for playing safe to keep his job. Let's face facts, he could've gone into a deep sit counter attack mode, got us back into Europe via Europa League again, not won anything and probably still be in a job.
Instead he gambled all or nothing, true audere est facere.
My heart will ALWAYS sit with someone like that.
I freely accept I am likely in a minority.

I will miss him, I'll miss the extremes of last season, I'll miss the euphoric conclusion which still doesn't feel real, and I will miss the tantalising prospect of what maybe could've been. He was (to me anyway) the Last of the Mohicans. I wish him the very very best with deep gratitude.

I welcome Thomas Frank (please get it done soon) and look forward to everything ahead.

 

[thfcsteff]

Can’t agree that we were not massive underdogs for that final I’m afraid Steff. That Liverpool team were already outstanding and hitting their peak. They finished a full 27 points ahead of us in the league and pushed Emirates Marketing Project to a record breaking points total to win the league and then won the league themselves the following year. They also had the experience of being in the final the previous year. We had a returning Kane, a wantaway Eriksen, Moussa Sissoko as our main central midfielder. In fact they had already beaten us twice in the league and were the bookies favourites.

Even if our prep had been better, even without that penalty decision, it would have been a tall ask to win that final.

It was the first season in several they'd finished ahead of us mate. Despite a slew of injuries we still finished 4th that season and they finished second. Two places. We went into the Final with the absolute air of a side whose name was on the trophy after the nature of how we beat Emirates Marketing Project and Ajax. The run-up to the Final had it as too close to call, albeit I do remember Bleacher Report posting something about how we were 'massive underdogs' however the prevailing mood I remember was that it was too close to call...FWIW I agree that their CL history would absolutely have them as favourites, however I don't remember that being a factor in the chat I heard/engaged in.

 

[Robspur12]

It was the first season in several they'd finished ahead of us mate. despite a slew of injuries we still finished 4th that season and they finished second. Two places. We went into the Final with the absolute air of a side whose name was on the trophy after the nature of how we beat Emirates Marketing Project and Ajax. The run-up to the Final had it as too close to call, albeit I do remember Bleacher Report posting something about how we were 'massive underdogs' however the prevailing mood I remember was that it was too close to call.

I think with respect, it’s a slightly romantic view to think we stood a good chance, I thought we had a small chance if everything went right for us but in the cold light of day, I don’t think we went into that game evenly matched. But it’s a measure of how good Poch had us at the time that we were being talked about in the same conversation. We were on different arcs by the time of the final, Liverpool very much in form and on the up curve while we were not in great form and on the downward curve.

 

[Chrissivad]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1932123499562217812

 

[Raziel]

I actually don't disagree with this point. I do think Ange's system required a lot of things to be in place to work well. Chief among them is Van De Ven being fit. Having full backs that could invert. And having a culture where immense bravery and the confidence to keep doing what is asked in spite of the pressure.

But I don't see how under ENIC we actually win the league any other way. I think we needed someone with an idea almost too 'out there' for most other coaches to try, because he had such unwavering belief in his ability to carry it through. People may say it worked in other places, but it wouldn't work here. To that I say it's all relative. The level of bravery required is the same, but he was previously asking players less talented than Maddison et al to carry it off, and asking them to do it against less talented opposition.

That's the lens I now look at everything this club does through - are we trying to win the league? Because otherwise I'm frankly bored of our status quo. It's always nice to watch young players develop and maybe we overachieve some years, but it feels like we're kind of being held in this position now because ENIC hasn't found a suitable buyer.

I don't really go in for Ange, or any manager, not understanding tactics, not knowing when he could adapt, not having a certain man track of a certain runner etc. I think most elite coaches know these things, but the reasons they do things like playing in a way that got us 17th in the league is because there is some element of long-term ambition, system comfort and culture building he was trying to reach. I liked the idea of having someone that was just relentlessly confident in his own ability and that of his players that he would really try and push beyond our status quo. It would be risky, it would be high variance, it would require a lot of things falling into place for it to work. But I frankly prefer that. The other side of the coin is hoping that Frank's balance and pragmatism over performs our wage structure to the same extent he has done with Brentford, and that's how we win the league. It requires Frank getting it right for 38 games. Let's see if it works.

You can't have a system that literally depends on the fasted player in Europe to function. Yes, if Porro, Romero, VDV, Udogie was fit for every game, plus we bought a Rodri level #6, plus an elite LW, Ange might win the league, but that just isn't realistic.

The way we win the league under ENIC is the same way any of Arsenal (who fudged up their chances), Chelsea, Saudi Sportswashing Machine do, build as good a side as you can, and hope to take advantage of an off season by City/Pool.

Ange understands tactics, he just hasn't accepted the ceiling of his, for 29+ years his system has worked, and doubling down each time has paid off. The issue is at the PL level, it's been found out, opposition teams are tactically aware enough to counter, and capable of converting at a rate that the number of chances his system gives up is not sustainable. The fact that we won the EL by playing a completely different formation and by focusing on not conceding vs outscoring opponent (especially in last 4 games), shows regardless of if he admits it or not (or like your argument, if I had a few less injuries or 1 or 2 better players, it would work), the system has a ceiling.

 

[Baleforce]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1932123499562217812

That math ain’t mathing.

Italy.

 

[billyiddo]

Sorry mate, we were absolutely not 'massive underdogs' in 2019. In fact, many felt we'd win it. The truth is we did get our preparations wrong. I love Poch but he showed a lack of experience in the prep for that Final. We were also recipients of an absolutelty scandalous decision in the first minute! I remain convinced that despite the poor preparation (3 weeks with no game is too long) without that decision, we still would've won it.

We were absolutely massive underdogs what the hell?

 

[Seedy Ron]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1932123499562217812

The third (fourth? fifth?) death of the GG server will surely be Ange winning the World Cup.

 

[Lilbaz]

We're acting like the decision was made after the final.
The decision would have been made well before. Just let him see out the season till the manager we want becomes available in the summer.
Great decision. We won a trophy. Brilliant. He left head held high.
But he was gone before that. Which even the die hard ange in fans must have realised at the time.

 

[Baleforce]

The third (fourth? fifth?) death of the GG server will surely be Ange winning the World Cup.

Doesn’t fall on second season.

And it’s still second class football.

 

[johnola]

When he came in he had known nothing but it working......get it?

Stick your breadcrumbs up your arse.

Get that you patronising weasel.

 

[P.D.]

There's many arguments for keeping him but ultimately the football was dog brick for a long long time with the same mistakes repeated over and over again. Injuries give some mitigation but there's no way the squad he had was as bad as 38 points.