Squad

[Charles]

I agree its a great looking squad. Its only really the front three that concern me. I dont think there's a standout player amongst them (though i have hopes for Odobert, Moore and Lankshear)

Agree the front three is exceptionally weak.
You would be hard pressed to find a less creative technically inferior front three than Johnson, Solanke and Richarlison in the PL

None can beat a man. , None can score from further than 10 yards . They don't get assists.
Very average - and relatively easy to defend against because they are one dimensional and predictable.
Son is class but his best days are behind him. Odobert has not come good yet. Same with Tel.

The front three is the main reason we play boring football.

 

[Lilbaz]

When poch and redknapp took over none of the players (modric, bale, kane, walker etc...) were considered stars. That came later.

 

[Muttley]

When poch and redknapp took over none of the players (modric, bale, kane, walker etc...) were considered stars. That came later.

Yep, ditto Poch. He had just one, Lloris who we all thought would jump ship. Then you blink and there's a team full of them.

 

[Raziel]

Agree the front three is exceptionally weak.
You would be hard pressed to find a less creative technically inferior front three than Johnson, Solanke and Richarlison in the PL

None can beat a man. , None can score from further than 10 yards . They don't get assists.
Very average - and relatively easy to defend against because they are one dimensional and predictable.
Son is class but his best days are behind him. Odobert has not come good yet. Same with Tel.

The front three is the main reason we play boring football.

? where to start

- Solanke is used as a pressing workhorse not as a CF, and still managed 16 goals, 9 assists in total in his first season in a dreadful system
- Johnson basically scores/assists at a rate as a winger that is only beaten by Salah, Saka and Son (previous seasons)

Neither player is "very average"

The issue is the system, Son & Johnson are both not suited for how Ange wants to play, neither are traditional wingers, both like to run into open spaces, Ange's system with overloads creates the opposite, congested spaces. Both would be better suited having freedom to come inside, make runs off the striker.

Solanke is a poacher (so I agree with the need to be in the box) who suits a pressing system (guy fudging scored 19 goals in league for Bournemouth), the system should be setup that on the counter he gets to the box for that tap in, instead we give that role to the winger coming in at back post. I'll be controversial, Arsenal would have had a much better chance at winning the league this year if they had Solanke, he would walk on to Chelsea's side as well, and United's.

We play brick football because the system is too predictable, and players are not being played to their strength (your creativity is not supposed to come from your fudging CF) and it's too easy to counter by congesting deep areas (all teams struggle with this) an waiting for us to lose possession, counter with fudging long ball to wide spaces left behind FBs.

Very few players can be evaluated on this season because the way we play suits no one.

 

[SteveAWOL]

He's just spent the last 2 years on loan. At a higher standard than the championship. Just play him

Looking through the list of Belgian Pro League top scorers who’ve been signed by English clubs recently

Paul Onuachu went from 33 goals in 38 games for Genk to 4 in 36 games for Southampton
Deniz Undav went from 26 goals in 39 games for Union SG to 5 goals in 22 games Brighton

Can but hope that Vuskovic can make the step up to deal with EPL’s finest as well as he did with players of that calibre.

 

[braineclipse]

Main problems that need fixing are depth, ball progression, technical quality and creativity. Particularly if it's Ange or another manager wanting to play an ambitious style of football.

 

[Lilbaz]

Main problems that need fixing are depth, ball progression, technical quality and creativity. Particularly if it's Ange or another manager wanting to play an ambitious style of football.

Passing to our own players. Defending. Attacking.

 

[parklane1]

Main problems that need fixing are depth, ball progression, technical quality and creativity. Particularly if it's Ange or another manager wanting to play an ambitious style of football.

Having someone in M/F who can read a game and organise us to be tighter and stronger there would be a very good start.

 

[Roland Beurre]

Main problems that need fixing are depth, ball progression, technical quality and creativity.

Some of the haircuts are shocking, as well.

 

[Yiddo]

Main problems that need fixing are depth, ball progression, technical quality and creativity. Particularly if it's Ange or another manager wanting to play an ambitious style of football.

So all the basics for a Premier League team then?

 

[braineclipse]

So all the basics for a Premier League team then?

Sure, if you disregard all the other basics that would be all of them.

 

[Raziel]

Main problems that need fixing are depth, ball progression, technical quality and creativity. Particularly if it's Ange or another manager wanting to play an ambitious style of football.

Not sure I agree at a player level

Depth? apart from another FB, RW and perhaps creative cover, what is the depth gap? (and no, you can't compensate for 14 injuries in squad)
Technical quality? a lot of the squad is a decent technical level, perhaps we could improve in forward side there (Johnson, Richi not most technical players)
Creativity comes from the system, at a player level you have Maddison, Deki, Bergvall
Side has shown it can score goals against anyone
Side has shown it can hold 70%+ possession numerous times, again, even against good teams.

Real issues
- Need to concede less, about 20+ goals less, again, shown when we don't play stupid (3 out of last 4 EL games were clean sheets), the players can do it.
- Scoring more? we probably only need about 5-8 more goals to be right up there
- Game control, lost points from 12 games where we leading (almost a third of our games)

The squad is nowhere near 17th bad, we can argue if it's 8th good or 4th good or 12th good, it isn't 17th, and the data highlights the problems

- Play a system that doesn't leave you open for 90 minutes, doesn't concede so many chances
- Learn in game management, when under pressure, consolidate, wait to gain back momentum vs. keep playing like 12 year olds at the park
- Play to suit the players, e.g. Romero is elite when the game is in front of him, not with running a foot race back to his own goal. Son/Johnson like space to run into, don't have them constantly in congested spaces you created by overloads, Solanke is a poacher, get him the ball in the box, often.
- Have ways to break the lines (get the ball past certain mid/low blocks), could be Maddison's/Porro's passing, could be Wilson beating his man, could be Deki/Bentancur carrying the ball

Basically EL win should show the fact, tell these players to play in a non suicidal system and the goals conceded goes down immediately, and we win. And I'm sure someone will mention opposition level, well we didn't do so well against Leicester, Wolves, Ipswich or Tamsworth for that matter did we?

 

[Bullet]

Another amazing post @Raziel
We should give Ange this manifesto and say "either do this, or do one".

 

[Raziel]

Another amazing post @Raziel
We should give Ange this manifesto and say "either do this, or do one".

Honestly wish it was rocket science or that I was somehow on to some secret.

Look at the week 18 table, see what a change in manager did for Everton and Wolves, Everton from 17 points -> 48, Wolves from 15 -> 42, we went from 23 -> 38

 

[Lemonade Money]

Not sure I agree at a player level

Depth? apart from another FB, RW and perhaps creative cover, what is the depth gap? (and no, you can't compensate for 14 injuries in squad)
Technical quality? a lot of the squad is a decent technical level, perhaps we could improve in forward side there (Johnson, Richi not most technical players)
Creativity comes from the system, at a player level you have Maddison, Deki, Bergvall
Side has shown it can score goals against anyone
Side has shown it can hold 70%+ possession numerous times, again, even against good teams.

Real issues
- Need to concede less, about 20+ goals less, again, shown when we don't play stupid (3 out of last 4 EL games were clean sheets), the players can do it.
- Scoring more? we probably only need about 5-8 more goals to be right up there
- Game control, lost points from 12 games where we leading (almost a third of our games)

The squad is nowhere near 17th bad, we can argue if it's 8th good or 4th good or 12th good, it isn't 17th, and the data highlights the problems

- Play a system that doesn't leave you open for 90 minutes, doesn't concede so many chances
- Learn in game management, when under pressure, consolidate, wait to gain back momentum vs. keep playing like 12 year olds at the park
- Play to suit the players, e.g. Romero is elite when the game is in front of him, not with running a foot race back to his own goal. Son/Johnson like space to run into, don't have them constantly in congested spaces you created by overloads, Solanke is a poacher, get him the ball in the box, often.
- Have ways to break the lines (get the ball past certain mid/low blocks), could be Maddison's/Porro's passing, could be Wilson beating his man, could be Deki/Bentancur carrying the ball

Basically EL win should show the fact, tell these players to play in a non suicidal system and the goals conceded goes down immediately, and we win. And I'm sure someone will mention opposition level, well we didn't do so well against Leicester, Wolves, Ipswich or Tamsworth for that matter did we?

Tl:dr. How did it end?

 

[metalgear]

When poch and redknapp took over none of the players (modric, bale, kane, walker etc...) were considered stars. That came later.

they knew how to play to players' strengths

 

[braineclipse]

Not sure I agree at a player level

Depth? apart from another FB, RW and perhaps creative cover, what is the depth gap? (and no, you can't compensate for 14 injuries in squad)
Technical quality? a lot of the squad is a decent technical level, perhaps we could improve in forward side there (Johnson, Richi not most technical players)
Creativity comes from the system, at a player level you have Maddison, Deki, Bergvall
Side has shown it can score goals against anyone
Side has shown it can hold 70%+ possession numerous times, again, even against good teams.

Real issues
- Need to concede less, about 20+ goals less, again, shown when we don't play stupid (3 out of last 4 EL games were clean sheets), the players can do it.
- Scoring more? we probably only need about 5-8 more goals to be right up there
- Game control, lost points from 12 games where we leading (almost a third of our games)

The squad is nowhere near 17th bad, we can argue if it's 8th good or 4th good or 12th good, it isn't 17th, and the data highlights the problems

- Play a system that doesn't leave you open for 90 minutes, doesn't concede so many chances
- Learn in game management, when under pressure, consolidate, wait to gain back momentum vs. keep playing like 12 year olds at the park
- Play to suit the players, e.g. Romero is elite when the game is in front of him, not with running a foot race back to his own goal. Son/Johnson like space to run into, don't have them constantly in congested spaces you created by overloads, Solanke is a poacher, get him the ball in the box, often.
- Have ways to break the lines (get the ball past certain mid/low blocks), could be Maddison's/Porro's passing, could be Wilson beating his man, could be Deki/Bentancur carrying the ball

Basically EL win should show the fact, tell these players to play in a non suicidal system and the goals conceded goes down immediately, and we win. And I'm sure someone will mention opposition level, well we didn't do so well against Leicester, Wolves, Ipswich or Tamsworth for that matter did we?

Let me try to rephrase my point, maybe that will clear up misunderstandings and/or clarify where we disagree.

The problem isn't numbers (apart from a couple of positions as you say). And it isn't how "good" the players are (apart from a couple of positions perhaps and lacking one or two "elite" players).

We lack balance imo, particularly when we're missing a handful of key players.

Defensively the difference with and without our first choice back 4/5 is massive. A need for better depth. We'll see if Kinsky and Danso help sort that out, I think so, but still a bit short.

We struggled with ball progression. The "solution" was putting Kulusevski (and then Bergvall) in alongside Maddison. Making an already attacking and ambitious team even more attacking and also vulnerable defensively.

Imo we have quality ball progression from Romero, Porro, Maddison. Could add Spence to that. Bergvall, but young and inconsistent. That's not enough. That's too vulnerable.

Add to that having quite a few wide players that need specific forms of service, players that lack creativity. That ups the need for really good ball progression and creativity deeper, which we way too often miss.

Those were big issues in our defensive problems too. Attacks breaking down and getting countered on, not being able to sustain pressure against good teams, not being able to play through pressure losing the ball in the process (counters, and sustained pressure against us).

If we want to play ambitious football we need more players with more ball playing quality, ball progression and creativity. In the squad. With everyone fit we're fine, a bit short. But takes to little to make us far from fine and that point an ambitious style will struggle.

 

[glasgowspur]

Honestly wish it was rocket science or that I was somehow on to some secret.

Look at the week 18 table, see what a change in manager did for Everton and Wolves, Everton from 17 points -> 48, Wolves from 15 -> 42, we went from 23 -> 38

View attachment 19837

Everton and wolves swapped places with man utd and West who also changed managers.
I'm not against changing managers but it is not a guarantee of anything.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Everton and wolves swapped places with man utd and West who also changed managers.
I'm not against changing managers but it is not a guarantee of anything.

What if we change managers every match? Dead cat bounce to the league title baby!

 

[Lemonade Money]

Honestly wish it was rocket science or that I was somehow on to some secret.

Look at the week 18 table, see what a change in manager did for Everton and Wolves, Everton from 17 points -> 48, Wolves from 15 -> 42, we went from 23 -> 38

View attachment 19837

So you wish we had the same bounce in the league as those two teams at the expense of a Europa League win? Not sure you know what you're arguing for any more.