Ange in or out?

[billyiddo]

There is clearly two sides one wants Ange gone you being one of them the other want him to stay. As for scum they can fudge off we had a better season. As for going forward I couldn't give 2 fudges what the scum do they could implode & have a brick year & we could have an outstanding year you don't no.

I feel that you’ve missed the point of the post - it wasn't about Arsenal specifically i was just using them to illustrate the point that there's a difference between appraising the season gone and looking forwards with a view to progression/competing.

 

[veryoldspur]

I don't just like you don't know if it will be better or worse. The difference is I will support the manager until the board says otherwise. If the board decide to stick with Ange will you support him because he will have my support

I will support the team, but until I believe the team are playing to their abilities I will continue to campaign for his removal.

 

[braineclipse]

I just think the two sides, if it can even be described as that, are talking at cross purposes. Best way i can think to describe it is as thus :

Compare us with Arsenal this season/right now - we've won a trophy & qualified for the CL while having a GHod awful league season. Arsenal didn't win a trophy but finished 2nd in the league and went deep in the CL. There's a very strong argument for us having had the better season based on that and I'd personally agree that we have due to the level of trophy won (a European trophy) BUT if you're looking in to next season and beyond as to who is better placed to be successful moving forwards then surely everyone can agree who that team is?

The arguments of the Ange out side seem fairly clear... Unacceptable results and performances over time, particularly in the league. Has been given time, but no clear change. A cup trophy though great not enough to compensate for that and keep him in the job, league results over time being a better predictor of future success than cup wins.

I remain somewhat uncertain, though definitely more towards the Ange in side. Me having given what I think is a steel man of your side, you feel like doing the same for thre Ange in side? Perhaps that can clear up the talking cross purposes...

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

What does being successful moving forwards mean? Back to just hoping to finish top 5 and hoping to win a trophy? We aren't ever going to be a club winning trophies year after year with this ownership, shiny stadium or no shiny stadium. Only the biggest spenders have ever competed in the league and won trophies, it's coming ever increasingly more difficult to do both.

Don't really see the point of a comparison with the Goons - they are a bigger club with bigger resources and Arteta has been at the Goons 5 or 6 years and since caretaking them to the FA Cup has won nothing and they have plateaued. Like @ricky2tricky4city said yesterday all situations and circumstances in football are different and comparisons pretty irrelevant.

The question for Ange is whether he can use this cup win as a foundation and build on starting with of course better league performances....

I think you can compare on the model each club runs.

We run a similar model to Liverpool and Arsenal. What I basically mean by that is we are nearing a similar income per year.
Now DL has no wealth to invest. For comparison, I'm not sure how much the Goons or Liverpool owners have invested, on top of income, in let's say the last 5-10years? That as an extra potential source is undoubtedly valuable.

What DL does deserve credit for is building (literally) that income stream to be even in the same ball park as the goons and Liverpool. He realised early that was the only way to sustain competing, you can smooth out the bad seasons without a noose round your neck. Villa, Everton, Leeds, Saudi Sportswashing Machine etc play that cliff edge game.
And the clubs like Brighton, Brentford... brilliantly run but have a ceiling.
We had that ceiling, financially, but are in a whole different world now.

So we need to spend our money well, align departments as much as possible, and probably land on our feet with a decent manager (which believe it or not, does have a large dose of luck with it).

Arsenal show how difficult it is. Look to be doing everything right...but still win nothing. On the other hand the Scousers, doing things right, and winning.

As trite as it sounds...We keep trying our best, (which I think everyone at the club does tbf and that's probably somewhat down to DL) and hope things fall into place.

And as fans, it might help if we just support rather than moan for the majority of the time. We concern ourselves with far too much. Just let people get on with stuff.

 

[Muttley]

The arguments of the Ange out side seem fairly clear... Unacceptable results and performances over time, particularly in the league. Has been given time, but no clear change. A cup trophy though great not enough to compensate for that and keep him in the job, league results over time being a better predictor of future success than cup wins.

I remain somewhat uncertain, though definitely more towards the Ange in side. Me having given what I think is a steel man of your side, you feel like doing the same for thre Ange in side? Perhaps that can clear up the talking cross purposes...

I think the piece that is most overlooked is the eye test itself. The actual football conversation about this manager's credentials. That seems to get lost in the results part of the conversation but is probably the biggest leading indicator to what happens next.

I've been quite public that I don't like Ange's revisionism, his twisting of words, his silly narratives and that pointless hostility he shows towards people that are just doing their jobs. I'm finding it tough to like him. None of that really matters so much if he can put together a tactical system that works. Unfortunately he hasn't, and that includes the final where the system didn't create ascendency in any part of the game. The Angewall worked incredibly well though and gave me hope. There were heroes out there and credit for him for doing what was needed with his main tactical system failing.

I've been saying for a few days now that because we won, the manager decision has almost become bigger than the football decision for legitimate reasons. My instinct is that his divisive personality won't have won friends with all levels of the leadership team that he works for. He may not have allies everywhere in the camp. That is on him, not them. It may well be the reason he falls on his sword.

 

[veryoldspur]

I keep seeing this, it's a valid point of view.
Are you willing to accept that all of the managers so far linked are just as big a punt as ange was?
Since September I've seen plenty of "all we need is" posts.
Ireola.
Glasner.
Frank.
De Silva.
Formations galore,
Double pivots
Play the kids.
It's not that easy, even longer history tells us that.

I have absolutely no grief with sacking ange.
My issue is expectation that with a few changes everything will be rosey in the garden.

They are proven at a reasonable level and play pragmatic football. Ange has only done it in tin pot leagues, and is only starting to realise there is more than one way to win. I think he is a long way from becoming a decent manager at this level. I also have to say I find him extremely arrogant and unlikeable

I think you can compare on the model each club runs.

We run a similar model to Liverpool and Arsenal. What I basically mean by that is we are nearing a similar income per year.
Now DL has no wealth to invest. For comparison, I'm not sure how much the Goons or Liverpool owners have invested, on top of income, in let's say the last 5-10years? That as an extra potential source is undoubtedly valuable.

What DL does deserve credit for is building (literally) that income stream to be even in the same ball park as the goons and Liverpool. He realised early that was the only way to sustain competing, you can smooth out the bad seasons without a noose round your neck. Villa, Everton, Leeds, Saudi Sportswashing Machine etc play that cliff edge game.
And the clubs like Brighton, Brentford... brilliantly run but have a ceiling.
We had that ceiling, financially, but are in a whole different world now.

So we need to spend our money well, align departments as much as possible, and probably land on our feet with a decent manager (which believe it or not, does have a large dose of luck with it).

Arsenal show how difficult it is. Look to be doing everything right...but still win nothing. On the other hand the Scousers, doing things right, and winning.

As trite as it sounds...We keep trying our best, (which I think everyone at the club does tbf and that's probably somewhat down to DL) and hope things fall into place.

And as fans, it might help if we just support rather than moan for the majority of the time. We concern ourselves with far too much. Just let people get on with stuff.

Just letting people get on with their stuff without moaning when you are spending £1500 on a season ticket is easier said than done.

Other than that I pretty much agree with what you have said. Over the last five years we have been one of the highest net spenders on players, unfortunately we have the worst scouting team imaginable. That said, I do believe our team is far better than our results, and that's why I believe Ange has to go.

There are those people at the beginning of the season who literally said they would take 17th and win a cup, well their wish came true. Although I have had an enormous short term buzz from winning the EL, it hasn't made up for the worst PL year we have ever had, and I for one would happily have swapped the past season with that lot up the road.

 

[braineclipse]

I think the piece that is most overlooked is the eye test itself. The actual football conversation about this manager's credentials. That seems to get lost in the results part of the conversation but is probably the biggest leading indicator to what happens next.

I've been quite public that I don't like Ange's revisionism, his twisting of words, his silly narratives and that pointless hostility he shows towards people that are just doing their jobs. I'm finding it tough to like him. None of that really matters so much if he can put together a tactical system that works. Unfortunately he hasn't, and that includes the final where the system didn't create ascendency in any part of the game. The Angewall worked incredibly well though and gave me hope. There were heroes out there and credit for him for doing what was needed with his main tactical system failing.

I've been saying for a few days now that because we won, the manager decision has almost become bigger than the football decision for legitimate reasons. My instinct is that his divisive personality won't have won friends with all levels of the leadership team that he works for. He may not have allies everywhere in the camp. That is on him, not them. It may well be the reason he falls on his sword.

I did write performance also, I think of that quite similarly to the eye test.

Do you think he's more divisive than most managers inside the club? I would have thought less given how he's kept the players on board throughout a difficult season, how he hasn't blamed the club/board/chairman or players much at all despite a season of many struggles.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

He is going to be a great player IMO. He was rushed this season. In fact had we not already loaned Donley I bet Moore would've been in U-21s and not blooded so fast. With the pressure of stated mission as the season got to its high point, I'd say it was a combination of protection and not wanting to have to trust him this young. I am of course guessing.

I don't really get the "what's happening with Moore?" Stuff. The lad had to get dispensation from school to play in a match this season. That's what we are dealing with. He's had far more exposure to PL football than was probably originally planned. He's still growing and developing. He gets pushed off the ball a bit too easily, that will come as he bulks out in his early 20s. Which is still a few years away. That's the context.

 

[glasgowspur]

They are proven at a reasonable level and play pragmatic football. Ange has only done it in tin pot leagues, and is only starting to realise there is more than one way to win. I think he is a long way from becoming a decent manager at this level. I also have to say I find him extremely arrogant and unlikeable

Just letting people get on with their stuff without moaning when you are spending £1500 on a season ticket is easier said than done.

Other than that I pretty much agree with what you have said. Over the last five years we have been one of the highest net spenders on players, unfortunately we have the worst scouting team imaginable. That said, I do believe our team is far better than our results, and that's why I believe Ange has to go.

There are those people at the beginning of the season who literally said they would take 17th and win a cup, well their wish came true. Although I have had an enormous short term buzz from winning the EL, it hasn't made up for the worst PL year we have ever had, and I for one would happily have swapped the past season with that lot up the road.

It's not about ange, it's about accepting that whoever we appoint after him and whichever system, formation and personnel we deploy it is a gamble and one that may not work out with the first couple of rolls of the dice.
IMho opinion our fanbase set us up to fail with a combination of over expectations, a lack of patience and a grass is greener attitude.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It's not about ange, it's about accepting that whoever we appoint after him and whichever system, formation and personnel we deploy it is a gamble and one that may not work out with the first couple of rolls of the dice.
IMho opinion our fanbase set us up to fail with a combination of over expectations, a lack of patience and a grass is greener attitude.

Ange has had more patience than any EPL manager i can remember. Maybe since Ray Evans. No one else would have gotten away with 91 poor performances like that.

 

[Muttley]

I did write performance also, I think of that quite similarly to the eye test.

Do you think he's more divisive than most managers inside the club? I would have thought less given how he's kept the players on board throughout a difficult season, how he hasn't blamed the club/board/chairman or players much at all despite a season of many struggles.

Yeah, it's a great question. In summary, I think Ange has the players onside, but perhaps not as much as we often think he has. It's definitely healthy enough and not a reason for him not to continue in role.

My guess is that it's not all sweetness and light with all of the playing squad but it is with the majority. How could it possibly be when you can only keep so many happy at one time? It's been implied in different articles that he's not actually that approachable to them. I don't think he is the Poch father figure type. He's not the Jose other extreme type either. He sits in that middle space, at least for the time being.

Mostly, he has the player's mindshare. That is to be expected as they are mostly a bunch of kids in a new project. The squad is not littered with a bunch of old pro's that will healthily challenge him if they don't believe in his methods. He has mostly head nodders at the moment. He certainly doesn't have people like me with decades of having to read people in a completely different business world. That is more aligned to all those journo's who read people differently.

The concern for me is that it is one thing to nod you head and agree with your manager. It's a completely other thing to nod your head and then go and execute on what you nodded your head about. I do think we have suffered from that on the pitch during the season. Nowhere near as bad as what Sonny did with Jose. He just nodded his head and did something completely different on the pitch as he didn't agree with what was being asked of him. Nor did I. No different from Kane or Hojbjerg nodding their heads with the last 2 managers and then giving less than 100% on the pitch. We don't have any extreme cases now, apart from perhaps Werner. Ange overstepped the mark there and hopefully regrets how he treated him publicly. Reggie won't be singing his praises either.

Also worth remembering that Ange hasn't needed to blame the club/board/chairman thus far. He's found the many other narratives like age, injuries, fatigue etc. Some legitimate reasons there in my opinion. The one that could disenfranchise players is when he talks about making mass changes as the reason for the performance or the loss. Not sure I would feel that loved if I was one of the players coming in that he's talking about.

 

[tommysvr]

I just think the two sides, if it can even be described as that, are talking at cross purposes. Best way i can think to describe it is as thus :

Compare us with Arsenal this season/right now - we've won a trophy & qualified for the CL while having a GHod awful league season. Arsenal didn't win a trophy but finished 2nd in the league and went deep in the CL. There's a very strong argument for us having had the better season based on that and I'd personally agree that we have due to the level of trophy won (a European trophy) BUT if you're looking in to next season and beyond as to who is better placed to be successful moving forwards then surely everyone can agree who that team is?

I think your question is rhetorical but the answer is obviously Arsenal. How could anyone think otherwise? That's not only Ange's fault.

But Arsenal are in pretty much the same spot as we were in 2017 / 2018. They're coming to the end of their peak. They need to start winning or players will start moving on in search of trophies. We are at the beginning of our run, and potentially timing it well if City and them are on the way down.

 

[Surfless]

Now think about the future. There is no logical reason why our league performances will change, so we will in turn continue to lose game after game. At some point Levy will have to sack him, then we play catch up for the rest of the season. It doesn't take a crystal ball to work this out, it's common sense. What you are suggesting is we reward Ange with a bit more time to the cost of the supporters. As much as I have enjoyed winning the EL, think about who we had to beat to do it!

You are assuming based on your negative bias mate - no logical reason why things will change?

Try these four for size.


1. Less injuries
2. Bigger squad if we add some during the summer with less square pegs in round holes
3. Team that knows what it takes to win silverware will have better mindset starting the season
4. The manager has shown through his attrition approach in the EL that he can adapt to the needs of games - so there's a good chance we will be more pragmatic next season.

It doesn't matter who we have had to beat to win the EL - the following teams were in it and didn't get passed the various stages.

• Ajax
• Anderlecht
• AZ Alkmaar
• Beşiktaş
• Bodø/Glimt
• Braga
• Dynamo Kyiv
• Eintracht Frankfurt
• Elfsborg
• FCSB
• Ferencváros
• Fenerbahçe
• Galatasaray
• Hoffenheim
• Lazio
• Ludogorets Razgrad
• Lyon
• Maccabi Tel Aviv
• Malmö
• Manchester United
• Midtjylland
• Nice
• Olympiacos
• PAOK
• PFC Slavia Prague
• Porto
• Qarabağ
• Roma
• RFS
• Slovan Bratislava
• Tottenham Hotspur
• Twente
• Union Saint-Gilloise
• Viktoria Plzeň

You can't denigrate a competition based on the quality of the opposition - that's the rules of the tournament, who you get is luck of the draw and those you play deserve to be there on merit.

 

[Muttley]

You are assuming based on your negative bias mate - no logical reason why things will change?

Try these four for size.


1. Less injuries
2. Bigger squad if we add some during the summer with less square pegs in round holes
3. Team that knows what it takes to win silverware will have better mindset starting the season
4. The manager has shown through his attrition approach in the EL that he can adapt to the needs of games - so there's a good chance we will be more pragmatic next season.

It doesn't matter who we have had to beat to win the EL - the following teams were in it and didn't get passed the various stages.

• Ajax
• Anderlecht
• AZ Alkmaar
• Beşiktaş
• Bodø/Glimt
• Braga
• Dynamo Kyiv
• Eintracht Frankfurt
• Elfsborg
• FCSB
• Ferencváros
• Fenerbahçe
• Galatasaray
• Hoffenheim
• Lazio
• Ludogorets Razgrad
• Lyon
• Maccabi Tel Aviv
• Malmö
• Manchester United
• Midtjylland
• Nice
• Olympiacos
• PAOK
• PFC Slavia Prague
• Porto
• Qarabağ
• Roma
• RFS
• Slovan Bratislava
• Tottenham Hotspur
• Twente
• Union Saint-Gilloise
• Viktoria Plzeň

You can't denigrate a competition based on the quality of the opposition - that's the rules of the tournament, who you get is luck of the draw and those you play deserve to be there on merit.

Nice post. I'm pretty certain we can't really have a "bigger" squad though especially in UEFA. We can definitely have a better one though, and inevitably will. What may happen is further bifurcation between the PL and UEFA squads. I think we had 3 players not selected for UEFA in the second half of this season. Could we have even more? Perhaps we could have players only named for CL. That would be a bit weird though.

LOL - we all know when we have a fantastic and deep squad, we won't get an injury. We'll just have players loose in the saddle.

 

[veryoldspur]

It's not about ange, it's about accepting that whoever we appoint after him and whichever system, formation and personnel we deploy it is a gamble and one that may not work out with the first couple of rolls of the dice.
IMho opinion our fanbase set us up to fail with a combination of over expectations, a lack of patience and a grass is greener attitude.

Expectations, as in finishing higher than 17th?

 

[veryoldspur]

You are assuming based on your negative bias mate - no logical reason why things will change?

Try these four for size.


1. Less injuries
2. Bigger squad if we add some during the summer with less square pegs in round holes
3. Team that knows what it takes to win silverware will have better mindset starting the season
4. The manager has shown through his attrition approach in the EL that he can adapt to the needs of games - so there's a good chance we will be more pragmatic next season.

1. All teams have injuries, and that lot up the road had more than us and finished 2nd.
2. I doubt our squad will be bigger, just a little different. Please don't expect a lot of change
3. I don't believe that for a minute
4. Don't hold your breath. You may think you're seeing the class half full, I think you're kidding yourself

 

[Raziel]

I suspect he's gone, would have been very easy for the club to jump on the bandwagon of emotion and say we are looking forward to preparing for the new season with Ange, they didn't.

 

[glasgowspur]

Expectations, as in finishing higher than 17th?

Again, and don't know how times I have to say this, it's not about ange and this season.

 

[veryoldspur]

Again, and don't know how times I have to say this, it's not about ange and this season.

Really, have a look at the thread title

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think your question is rhetorical but the answer is obviously Arsenal. How could anyone think otherwise? That's not only Ange's fault.

But Arsenal are in pretty much the same spot as we were in 2017 / 2018. They're coming to the end of their peak. They need to start winning or players will start moving on in search of trophies. We are at the beginning of our run, and potentially timing it well if City and them are on the way down.

They are in the same spot they were this time last year too … what will it take to get a trophy. Their issue is everyone can see but will they address it. I don’t think so.
I also think their coach ain’t what people think. The players may already be bored of him and his lack of anything new
Every season they have legohead there they remind me of us with Poch, except fans of other clubs admired Poch