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Why are we such a pushover against the top sides?

But we're not just talking four games are we. We're talking four games on top of quite a large number from last season when we witnessed game after game no great effort from Paulinho and Chadli and only fitfull commitment from Soldado.

Large number? new league, two managers, disjointed selection, none of them was given a real run in a steady team.

I'm just saying we change this story however we feel, as fickle fans. Most people were 4 games ago, lets start fresh, give everyone a chance, one bad result and it's "well they had all of last season"
 
When it goes tits up and we demand players/manager out and it happens, we will blame it on Levy and the "club's" shortsightedness. There is no 3-5 year mission ...

If that's the case, your issue is with Levy. He's the one, not the fans, thats made the appointments and then got rid. Of course, he has to look at things from several other angles than we do.

Holtby wasn't given 3-5 years. Levy, and Poch, made a decision. Game by game, week to week, evaluation and assessment. That's what they do. And that's what fans do, on this board and others, the world over.
 
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Eh??

Either you actually haven't been watching the last few years or you only remember the last 12 months

No much longer than that, the point was about the period 1990-2014 when the no win records at old Trafford and Stamford bridge started.


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On Sunday I said to my friends who have season tickets next to mine: "We look very much like a work in progress, whereas Liverpool look like one that has been completed"....

There is now a very big difference between the Liverpool that Rogers took to a 7th or 8th place finish in his first season to the one we see now. They have a gameplan and execute it well. I'm sure that if we give Poch the same time that the scousers gave Rogers then we will see a similar story.

Read through a Southampton forum to see their view on Poch, all very bitter about him leaving, but liked the pressing game. What jumped out at me were the posts about Koeman having a Plan B & C and coming back from a goal down, something that Poch never done cause he never had a Plan B, We'll see...
 
No much longer than that, the point was about the period 1990-2014 when the no win records at old Trafford and Stamford bridge started.


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My point was that 2/3 seasons ago we had started being a match for the 'top' sides, including Manure and Chelski. It was last season that we reverted back to the typical Spurs of post-1990
 
Read through a Southampton forum to see their view on Poch, all very bitter about him leaving, but liked the pressing game. What jumped out at me were the posts about Koeman having a Plan B & C and coming back from a goal down, something that Poch never done cause he never had a Plan B, We'll see...

Well, part of having a plan B & C is what does your bench look like. Poch will have a better bench here than at Southampton
 
Well, part of having a plan B & C is what does your bench look like. Poch will have a better bench here than at Southampton

I hope that is the case. As I said previously the capacity to adapt and come up with alternate tactics and line ups when a situation demands is IMHO what distinguishes the great coaches from the mere good ones.


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My point was that 2/3 seasons ago we had started being a match for the 'top' sides, including Manure and Chelski. It was last season that we reverted back to the typical Spurs of post-1990

We did but those two seasons are an outlier in a long term trend of underperformance. We don't even have a single smash and grab result in 25 attempts at Stamford bridge.


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weve always been a pushover against the top sides....the only time we really gave the big teams a game was under Redknapp, and AVB's first season, and that was all mainly due to having 3 world class players in King, Modric and Bale playing at some point.

right now we just dont have anyone producing that kind of ability.
 
Well, part of having a plan B & C is what does your bench look like. Poch will have a better bench here than at Southampton
That's the worrying thing, Southampton are obviously weaker this season with their summer exodus and with probably less alternatives on the bench this season than last. Their fans are happier now with their new managers ability to change things and come from behind to win games.
 
I would say that up from around 2009 until Autumn 2013 (and our Emirates Marketing Project 6-0 debacle) we had stopped being easy pushovers for the top sides. Under Redknapp it was because we had some truly top level players and the fact that Redknapp built a pretty solid defence. Under AVB (first season) it was because he solidified our play at the back to compensate for losing the likes of Modric and VDV.
There were weaknesses with both, which we don't need to go into fully.

What people should remember is that the mediocrity the period from the mid-90s to the start of the Jol years was characterised not really by how much of a pushover we were against top sides, but more by how much of a pushover we were for middling sides and especially sides who would be fighting against the drop.
If you remember at the end of the 2006/07 and 2010/11 we beat sides and sent them down (Charlton and Birmingham, respectively).

If that had been a decade or so earlier, it would have been us that would have saved them by bending over and giving away a cheap 3 points.

We've come a loooong way; it's just proving hard to make that step up to the top 4 AND establishing ourselves there
 
Tottenham Hotspur keep getting thrashed by the big clubs - why does it happen?

Jonathan Liew investigates: Tottenham's record against the 'Big Four' is appalling - what has gone wrong, and how can Mauricio Pochettino fix things?

Hugo Lloris had had enough. It was the dying days of the Tim Sherwood era, and after another capitulation against a big club, he went on the warpath.

"We have to show more character," he said. "It will be difficult to do worse next season, especially against the top four or five teams. We sometimes had the feeling that we gave up this season. We can't allow this kind of behaviour."

Four months and one new manager later, and Tottenham were up against Liverpool. It was still early days for new manager Mauricio Pochettino, but Lloris had seen enough to be optimistic.

"We changed a lot of things," he said. "We have a new manager, with his own staff. We believe in his concept and his philosophy, and we want to show everyone we have the potential to be a good team in the league."

In the event, Tottenham were spanked 3-0 at home by a Liverpool side who by common consent have been a shadow of the team they were last season. It was a defeat that prolonged an atrocious record against the elite of English football. Since the start of 2012, Tottenham have played 24 games against the "Big 4", and lost 16.

By the "Big 4", we're talking about the top four from last season's Premier League: Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Emirates Marketing Project. We've left out Manchester United - Tottenham's recent record against them is actually all right, although it's still almost four years since they kept a clean sheet against them.

And keeping goals out is really the nub of the problem. Tottenham don't just lose to big teams. They get absolutely gubbed. In those 24 fixtures, they have conceded 65 goals - around a goal every 33 minutes. They haven't kept a clean sheet against a "Big 4" team since a goalless draw against Chelsea in March 2012.

This weekend Spurs go to Emirates Marketing Project, who have handed them a number of humiliating defeats in recent years. Last season, they won 6-0 at the Etihad Stadium before beating them 5-1 at White Hart Lane. Chelsea won 4-0 at Stamford Bridge last season, while Tottenham's last three fixtures against Liverpool have ended 0-5, 0-4 and 0-3. At that rate of progress, Tottenham should be able to hold them to a goalless draw sometime in 2016.

Games where Tottenham have conceded 5+ goals, 2012-date

26 Feb 2012
Arsenal 5 Tottenham 2

15 Apr 2012
Chelsea 5 Tottenham 1 (FA Cup semi-final, Wembley)

17 Nov 2012
Arsenal 5 Tottenham 2

24 Nov 2013
Emirates Marketing Project 6 Tottenham 0

15 Dec 2013
Tottenham 0 Liverpool 5

29 Jan 2014
Tottenham 1 Emirates Marketing Project 5

If Tottenham were a small or even mid-table side, none of this would seem all that remarkable. But Tottenham are actually a very good side. In fact, if they'd been able to hold their own against the top four, they'd probably have qualified for the Champions League in each of the last three seasons.

So what's gone wrong? And how can they fix it?

THE HIGH LINE
Let's begin with a teaser. It's very late in the Emirates Marketing Project v Tottenham game. James Milner has the ball deep in City territory. Jesus Navas is trotting towards the halfway line. What happens next?

Did you get it ? About four seconds later, Milner's lumped it up the pitch, Vertonghen has tried and failed to cut it out, and this is where we are.

The high line in itself isn't a problem, as long as you have the players to pull it off. To do the high line well, you need defenders who can match the opposition forwards for pace. Vertonghen isn't slow, but Navas is a guy who once ran the 100 metres in 10.8 seconds and once broke a treadmill by running on it on the highest setting for too long.

You also need to press right from the front. That was how Pochettino managed to make a high line work at Southampton. Because you're vulnerable to the quick long ball, furious pressing of the opposition defence is required. It's also one of the reasons AVB ditched Rafael van der Vaart as soon as he arrived at Tottenham. He didn't have quite enough hustle.

Spurs didn't always play that high up the pitch. But as AVB found, there's no point playing a high line if you don't have the structure in place to do it. And against teams with lethal pace, towards the end of a game when your players are tiring, it's suicidal. And it's the sort of tactic that turns ones and twos into fives and sixes.

INDIVIDUAL ERRORS
For a top team, Tottenham seem to make an inordinate number of simple errors in big games. You could pick out any number of instances here, but perhaps the most dramatic example of a game-changing error was at Stamford Bridge last season. Having held title challengers Chelsea for 56 minutes and had several chances to take the lead, Vertonghen tries to carry the ball out of defence. At which point this happens.

And fair play to Samuel Eto'o, that is an excellent celebration.

But it was a gift from Tottenham, and there have been plenty of others. Take Adebayor's senseless dismissal in the north London derby of 2012. Tottenham were 1-0 up at the time, and went on to lose 5-2. Or the skewed Erik Lamela clearance that allowed Arsenal to equalise at the Emirates last month.

Or this - and you know what, on reflection, this is probably my favourite. It's like a ballet of bad football, an opera of outrage, a cathedral of calamity. It's March 2013, Tottenham are 2-1 up at Anfield, and then Kyle Walker decides to do this.

Sometimes there's a real beauty in abomination. And for some reason, in big games Tottenham seem more prone to it than anybody else.

BAD FULL-BACKS
Walker is two-thirds of a brilliant full-back. Not only is he is good on the ball, with real pace and a willingness to run at defenders, but he's actually good at winning the ball back too: a good tackler, a good cross-blocker, tough to dribble past. Fortunately for Walker, those are the two things that most people notice in a full-back.

The other third of being a full-back, and the bit that most people don't notice, is positional sense, and in this respect Kyle Walker is terrible. His reading of the game is poor, he often gets drawn out of position chasing the ball, and his co-ordination with other defenders could certainly use a bit of work. Watch as he gets sucked backwards by Didier Drogba at Wembley in 2012, allowing Ramires a clear run on goal.

Walker isn't the only culprit - he's been injured since March - but if you look at Tottenham's record against last year's top four, his fingerprints are all over the crime scene. If you break down the 24 games Tottenham have played against them since 2012, he's played a higher percentage of them than anyone else.

Danny Rose, too, has a remarkable knack of getting caught out of position. Rose used to be a winger, which may explain why his positional sense isn't what it should be. Perhaps it's a lack of concentration, perhaps it's an over-eagerness to get forward. Here he is, getting caught short for Liverpool's first goal in the 3-0 win at White Hart Lane earlier this season.

They're not the only two culprits - Eric Dier is a centre-back being shoehorned into right-back, and it shows - but if you compare the likes of Walker and Rose with, say, Pablo Zabaleta or Branislav Ivanovic or Bacary Sagna, it's one area where the gulf between Tottenham and the big clubs has been most pronounced.

YOUNES KABOUL'S SHOELACES
Emirates Marketing Project v Tottenham, the Etihad Stadium. Pretty big game, you'd think. Certainly the sort of game you'd want to prepare for in advance.

And yet, as Tottenham are about to kick off the game, four of Tottenham's back five are otherwise engaged. Thirteen seconds later, Jesus Navas, who started the game fully upright, has scored the first of six Emirates Marketing Project goals that afternoon.

Yeah, all right, all right. But obviously that's just a one-off. Right?

Remember that Vertonghen error against Chelsea we flagged up earlier? Let's roll the tape back a few seconds.

MENTALITY
Now, some people may think Tim Sherwood is a bit of a nutter, but when he spoke after that game, he spoke from the heart. "It's a lack of characters," he said. "You need to show a bit more guts and not want to be someone's mate all the time. They need to drag it out of each other. You won't finish in the top four if you don't beat top teams."

Sherwood was railing against what he saw as the cosy mediocrity that was taking root in some parts of the squad. With Tottenham out of the running for fourth place, with the club's best player being sold in each of the last two summers, there was a sense that Tottenham were a club that had found its level. You might identify a similar streak in the Arsenal squad between about 2011 and... well, now.

You hear a lot of talk about "big club mentality". Tottenham were a team who had developed a "quite big club mentality" - perfectly competent, but without the killer instinct or belief to beat the elite on a regular basis. There's no way to measure this of course, but the frequency with which Tottenham have subsided against big teams over recent years suggests belief is something in short supply.

THE SOLUTION?
So how does Pochettino - a manager whose only trophy to date is the Barclays Manager of the Month Award for October 2013 - shift things? Ben Davies and Federico Fazio may have been signed over the summer, but Pochettino has inherited many of the issues that blighted his predecessors. The defence is still top-six rather than top-four standard. The likes of Eriksen, Adebayor and Lamela are not naturally suited to a high-intensity pressing game. Moreover, Tottenham's rivals have strengthened once more.

Speaking on Thursday ahead of the City game, Pochettino insisted that the slate was clean. "The reality is I don't remember the [past] results," he said. "It's important to know that this is another season, another philosophy,
another game. A different game, with maybe different players."

When he said "another philosophy", this may have been what he was talking about.

For once, Tottenham went to Arsenal and didn't set about them from the first whistle. They waited patiently, and then broke with numbers. The snapshot above isn't from the second half, when they were clinging onto their 1-0 lead, but from the first half, when the game was still new. All 11 men behind the ball, and possession quite happily ceded. Tottenham only had 31 per cent of the ball all game, which for a Pochettino side was pretty radical.

The full backs were ordered not to charge forward and get caught out of position. The back four stayed narrow and well co-ordinated - notice how all 11 players are not only behind the ball, but within the width of the 18-yard box. Apart from Lamela's hashed clearance, there was an impressive absence of defensive howlers, kamikaze keeping, misplaced passes, and not one player was seen tying their laces just as an attack was about to break.

Those who still doubt whether Pochettino can transfer his skills to a club of Tottenham's size will have been strengthened by his words after the Arsenal game. "We competed with a big team like Arsenal," he said. "This is a good point for us."

But the irony is that in order to beat the big teams, Tottenham may just have to start thinking like a small one.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/other/tottenham-hotspur-keep-getting-thrashed-by-the-big-clubs-why-does-it-happen/ar-BB9zcL3


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Very unfair imo to pick out Walker as the main culprit, the calamitous brainfarts and have been shared round pretty evenly.

Realistically that last line (my bold) holds the key.
 
Thats an awfully written piece. Its like the guy doesn't watch Spurs and is talking *******s
 
He picked out rose against Liverpool to highlight poor positioning, completely ignoring the fact that as a full back it's your job to make forward runs, which rose had just done, it wasn't his fault the attack broke down, he's supposed to be covered by a midfielder in those situations. Also, saying walker has been involved in most of the games we've lost so it must be his fault! I'm sure lloris has played in all of them but you wouldn't suggest he's the reason we are losing them!

I didn't mind the article actually but it was little pieces like that that made me take it with a huge pinch of salt, we're clearly not reading an in depth tactical master class by a footballing professor! I did like the point on Sherwood rant after the Chelsea game, I was behind that rant then and I still am now, I think our mentality is so weak sometimes.
 
Footballer wise I wouldn't agree with much of that but manager and tactics, set up he is very nearly spot on IMV.
We as fans moan about an unfair advantage these teams have because of the money yet we go out against them to play as if it's a level playing field! Park the bus but leave the handbrake off and try and hit them on the counter. I would rather we did that and got beat 1 or 2 nil and come away without the mental scars of 4,5 or 6 goal drubbings.
What's arsenals record against city, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man U in the last 5 years? Not great I'd be willing to bet, yet they are top 4 every year.
I hope Poch had learned something from the Liverpool and arsenal games and we see evidence of it today.


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i feel that we chase the glory glory idea too much against big teams when we clearly have a weaker team post modric-bale-vdv

our transfers seem to prefer technical players a bit too much - and we have a lot of slow lumbering players in defence and midfield. we have no pace to stretch games, no speed to chase back.

if anything i think the string of managerial changes have rattled/disheartened the players quite a bit. this i blame levy for getting rid of AVB when a successor wasn't lined up and all we had was tim.

poch seems to be fixing things, but there's still a lot to do. we need to give him time to instil the philosophy and gradually change out the players while building on what we have. it will take 2-3 years...at least. maybe for the best too, we could see the team peak with the new stadium.
 
I'm guessing it has something to do with them having far superior players to us. The teams around us went out this summer and bought proven players for the positions they needed strengthening where as we done a usual levy trick and just bought **** cos they were cheap even if they were our managers 5th or 6th choice. Fazio?
 
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