Why are we such a pushover against the top sides?

[supie]

About time that we started this thread, in fact we could have started this thread in the early 1990s when our poor records against Utd and Chelsea began. However in those days it would have crashed the internet.

My point is that this is clearly nothing new and no short term fix based on what we saw yesterday or even over the six capitulations we saw last season is going to solve the problem.

It is a combination of

1. Poor defending - we give away free goals.
2. Mentality - our club's mentality is to try to play open and attacking football. i.e. we make it easier for the other team to play.
3. No star, big game players - we sold Bale and VdV.
4. Inferiority complex - its been going on a long time.
5. Too many coaches/managers - the tactics have been wrong so often, part of the reason is that coaches only get one or two attempts and can't learn from it.

The solution

1. Pick a manager and stick with them.
2. Build a flexible defensive system (& squad) that works for QPR at home and Emirates Marketing Project away.
3. Attacking systems need a plan B & C.
4. Stop signing players off You Tube clips and start looking at how they perform in big games.

Agree with most of that. The modern coach/manager is expected to use a combination of tactics and personnel to; a) develop an attack threat so as to be able to score and; b) set up a team so as to be able to counteract the strengths of the opposition. I honestly over the past 3 years cannot recall a standout example of any of our coaches setting the team up in a way which would nullify one of the top 4 sides. Poch's success will in part be judged by results overall but; will also be judged in terms of his flexibility and capacity to combine personnel and tactics when trying to combat the attacking threats of one of the top 4. His first showing (last week) did demonstrate some naivety in that regard and the comment "must do better" is what most comes to mind when reflecting on that game.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Raziel]

Agree with most of that. The modern coach/manager is expected to use a combination of tactics and personnel to; a) develop an attack threat so as to be able to score and; b) set up a team so as to be able to counteract the strengths of the opposition. I honestly over the past 3 years cannot recall a standout example of any of our coaches setting the team up in a way which would nullify one of the top 4 sides. Poch's success will in part be judged by results overall but; will also be judged in terms of his flexibility and capacity to combine personnel and tactics when trying to combat the attacking threats of one of the top 4. His first showing (last week) did demonstrate some naivety in that regard and the comment "must do better" is what most comes to mind when reflecting on that game.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

No offense, the fact that you feel the need to make that comment shows how difficult the #1 answer on the solution set is.

Manager in game number 4 against the team that challenged for the title last season, with their manager in his 100th game, ours in our 4th ... your verdict is "must do better"????

Results against top teams in the first 3-6 months of Poch's time quite honestly should be nothing more than learning, and bonus if we pick up anything. The only time it would be worth a comment is if we really got spanked and even then not the first time.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Agree with most of that. The modern coach/manager is expected to use a combination of tactics and personnel to; a) develop an attack threat so as to be able to score and; b) set up a team so as to be able to counteract the strengths of the opposition. I honestly over the past 3 years cannot recall a standout example of any of our coaches setting the team up in a way which would nullify one of the top 4 sides. Poch's success will in part be judged by results overall but; will also be judged in terms of his flexibility and capacity to combine personnel and tactics when trying to combat the attacking threats of one of the top 4. His first showing (last week) did demonstrate some naivety in that regard and the comment "must do better" is what most comes to mind when reflecting on that game.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

Eh??

Either you actually haven't been watching the last few years or you only remember the last 12 months

 

[sc25]

No offense, the fact that you feel the need to make that comment shows how difficult the #1 answer on the solution set is.

Manager in game number 4 against the team that challenged for the title last season, with their manager in his 100th game, ours in our 4th ... your verdict is "must do better"????

Results against top teams in the first 3-6 months of Poch's time quite honestly should be nothing more than learning, and bonus if we pick up anything. The only time it would be worth a comment is if we really got spanked and even then not the first time.

Well, the 'need to improve' was Poch' own assessment afterwards, right?

Be that as it may, ignore us while we - on an internet discussion forum - continue to give our 'comments' regardless of timeline and weigh in with our thoughts...just as footy fans everywhere do with their clubs?

By the way, any evaluation or criticism of Sherwood...a rookie who took over mid season with no say in squad...against top teams in his 5-6 month tenure was....well...you tell me.

 

[supie]

Well, the 'need to improve' was Poch' own assessment afterwards, right?

Be that as it may, ignore us while we - on an internet discussion forum - continue to give our 'comments' regardless of timeline and weigh in with our thoughts...just as footy fans everywhere do with their clubs?

By the way, any evaluation or criticism of Sherwood...a rookie who took over mid season with no say in squad...against top teams in his 5-6 month tenure was....well...you tell me.

There are a few crossover quotes on my original post; however just to be clear... The view I was trying to convey was that over the past 2 seasons and against top sides we rarely (if ever) set ourselves up to truly combat and nullify their strengths. Furthermore, we don't seem to alter either our personnel or tactics and prefer to stick to our standard selections and game plans.

I say this in the context of this season based on the fact that Poch's team selection and tactics from the QPR game to the Liverpool game, on the face of it at least, didn't change and yet the threat posed by Liverpool far outweighed the one posed by QPR.

I like Poch, believe he is exactly what we need and back him 100%; however in my humble opinion he, like Sherwood and AVB before him, decided that we could take on Liverpool on our terms without the need to alter things too much and still combat their attacking threats.

This in my view may be the reason why we struggle against these sides; however I may also be wrong and not have a clue about what I am talking about. As above, it is after all only an opinion on an Internet forum and surely everyone is entitled to one of those?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Armchair Expert]

There are a few crossover quotes on my original post; however just to be clear... The view I was trying to convey was that over the past 2 seasons and against top sides we rarely (if ever) set ourselves up to truly combat and nullify their strengths. Furthermore, we don't seem to alter either our personnel or tactics and prefer to stick to our standard selections and game plans.

I say this in the context of this season based on the fact that Poch's team selection and tactics from the QPR game to the Liverpool game, on the face of it at least, didn't change and yet the threat posed by Liverpool far outweighed the one posed by QPR.

I like Poch, believe he is exactly what we need and back him 100%; however in my humble opinion he, like Sherwood and AVB before him, decided that we could take on Liverpool on our terms without the need to alter things too much and still combat their attacking threats.

This in my view may be the reason why we struggle against these sides; however I may also be wrong and not have a clue about what I am talking about. As above, it is after all only an opinion on an Internet forum and surely everyone is entitled to one of those?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

Two possible reasons spring to mind.

1. Until very recently we have been good enough to go toe to toe with the big sides and haven't needed to alter our game. We could be them playing how we played with the same personnel that had probably brushed aside Bolton, Swansea or whichever chaff we had played the week before. Only recently are we no longer good enough to do this; however, we probably retain faith in our players and feel once we gel and have plan A in place under Poch we'll be competitive again.

2. Putting 11 behind the ball is small time.

And whats with this "its an internet forum, and I'm entitled to my opinion, my mummy said so." Grow up man, give your opinions then be prepared to defend them! Whats going on around here?

 

[supie]

Two possible reasons spring to mind.

1. Until very recently we have been good enough to go toe to toe with the big sides and haven't needed to alter our game. We could be them playing how we played with the same personnel that had probably brushed aside Bolton, Swansea or whichever chaff we had played the week before. Only recently are we no longer good enough to do this; however, we probably retain faith in our players and feel once we gel and have plan A in place under Poch we'll be competitive again.

2. Putting 11 behind the ball is small time.

And whats with this "its an internet forum, and I'm entitled to my opinion, my mummy said so." Grow up man, give your opinions then be prepared to defend them! Whats going on around here?

Firstly, the last point was meant to be tongue in cheek, and the overall post was meant to be defending a previous post.

Secondly - where did I say we should put 11 behind the ball? A 3 man midfield with someone shadowing Sterling could have been an option, or playing a more athletic and quicker player to Capoue might have worked better against the pace of Liverpool's attacking players.

I agree that we should have a plan A and aim to play that way where possible, primarily so as to ensure familiarity with the system amongst the players; however even the most successful teams and coaches over the years have adapted and modified to combat the strengths of the teams they are up against from time to time.

Recent examples include teams with playing styles as diverse as, Guardiola's Barca and Mourinho's Chelsea, where in the case of Barca they have moved between 3-4-3 and 4-3-3 in the case of Chelsea 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1.

I think adaptability, flexibility and tactical nous are all requirements of the modern coach and I am excited by Poch cause I think he has it. My main point however is that versus Liverpool he opted for not changing things and the performance and difficulties we had in dealing with them suggest he might have gotten it wrong.







Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[glorygloryeze]

There are a few crossover quotes on my original post; however just to be clear... The view I was trying to convey was that over the past 2 seasons and against top sides we rarely (if ever) set ourselves up to truly combat and nullify their strengths. Furthermore, we don't seem to alter either our personnel or tactics and prefer to stick to our standard selections and game plans.

I say this in the context of this season based on the fact that Poch's team selection and tactics from the QPR game to the Liverpool game, on the face of it at least, didn't change and yet the threat posed by Liverpool far outweighed the one posed by QPR.

I like Poch, believe he is exactly what we need and back him 100%; however in my humble opinion he, like Sherwood and AVB before him, decided that we could take on Liverpool on our terms without the need to alter things too much and still combat their attacking threats.

This in my view may be the reason why we struggle against these sides; however I may also be wrong and not have a clue about what I am talking about. As above, it is after all only an opinion on an Internet forum and surely everyone is entitled to one of those?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

I think if you say past two seasons and mean 2012/13 and 2013/14 then I think you are wrong that we didn't seem to try to combat and nullify the top sides.

In AVB's first season (2012/13) he seemed to get very good at that; it was last seaosn where we nose-dived in this regard (esp under Sherwood imo).

 

[supie]

No offense, the fact that you feel the need to make that comment shows how difficult the #1 answer on the solution set is.

Manager in game number 4 against the team that challenged for the title last season, with their manager in his 100th game, ours in our 4th ... your verdict is "must do better"????

Results against top teams in the first 3-6 months of Poch's time quite honestly should be nothing more than learning, and bonus if we pick up anything. The only time it would be worth a comment is if we really got spanked and even then not the first time.

I agree overall with your assessment of how we should respond to Poch's first 3-6 months and my "must do better" quote may have been a little harsh. Notwithstanding that, it was the nature of our performance and it's similarities to some of last seasons performances against the top sides (granted it didn't have the glaring mistakes and lapses in concentration which blighted us last year) which was what I was most concerned with.

Sterling between the lines, and Henderson coming from deep meant that our midfield two were going to be on the back foot a lot and would be required to cover the runs of these players between the fullbacks and the centre backs. I think Capoue in particular was shown up for his lack of pace and dynamism and Kaboul was shown up for his poor positional play and deteriorating athleticism which impacted his ability to turn quickly. Last season with the added torment that was Suarez we suffered some similar outcomes and I thought that perhaps we might have done things a little differently this time out to combat their style of play.

I said it in a previous post and firmly believe Poch will get it right and upon re- reading my original post agree that the "must do better" quip probably wasn't the best call.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[supie]

I think if you say past two seasons and mean 2012/13 and 2013/14 then I think you are wrong that we didn't seem to try to combat and nullify the top sides.

In AVB's first season (2012/13) he seemed to get very good at that; it was last seaosn where we nose-dived in this regard (esp under Sherwood imo).

Meant this and last and agree the Man U game amongst others with Sandro and Dembele bossing things was and still is a great memory.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[glorygloryeze]

Meant this and last and agree the Man U game amongst others with Sandro and Dembele bossing things was and still is a great memory.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

Ok I see. I think the time to just Poch and how he is doing against the 'top sides' will be in the second half of the season. Hopefully he will be a manager that takes lessons from our games and improves how the players play in said games a second/third time.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think if you say past two seasons and mean 2012/13 and 2013/14 then I think you are wrong that we didn't seem to try to combat and nullify the top sides.

In AVB's first season (2012/13) he seemed to get very good at that; it was last seaosn where we nose-dived in this regard (esp under Sherwood imo).

Hmmmm....

Looking at results against the 5 sides who finished above us last season and also Man Utd (as a traditional 'big game')

AVB:
Chelsea (H): Drew 1-1
Arsenal (A): Lost 1-0
Everton (A): Drew 0-0
Emirates Marketing Project (A): Lost 6-0
Liverpool (H): Lost 5-0
Man Utd (H): Drew 2-2

Sherwood:
Chelsea (A): Lost 4-0
Arsenal (H): Lost 1-0
Everton (H): Won 1-0
Emirates Marketing Project (H): Lost 5-1
Liverpool (A): Lost 4-0
Man Utd (A): Won 2-1

AVB
P W L D GD P
6 0 3 3 -12 3

Sherwood
P W L D GD P
6 2 4 0 -11 6

One could also probably argue that the heaviness of our defeats to both Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project under Sherwood were influenced largely by having a player (wrongly) sent off and a penalty awarded when the game was only 1-0 and competitive.

While we were poor against the big teams under Sherwood last season, we were truly pathetic against them under AVB.

 

[Finney Is Back]

On Sunday I said to my friends who have season tickets next to mine: "We look very much like a work in progress, whereas Liverpool look like one that has been completed"....

There is now a very big difference between the Liverpool that Rogers took to a 7th or 8th place finish in his first season to the one we see now. They have a gameplan and execute it well. I'm sure that if we give Poch the same time that the scousers gave Rogers then we will see a similar story.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Hmmmm....

Looking at results against the 5 sides who finished above us last season and also Man Utd (as a traditional 'big game')

AVB:
Chelsea (H): Drew 1-1
Arsenal (A): Lost 1-0
Everton (A): Drew 0-0
Emirates Marketing Project (A): Lost 6-0
Liverpool (H): Lost 5-0
Man Utd (H): Drew 2-2

Sherwood:
Chelsea (A): Lost 4-0
Arsenal (H): Lost 1-0
Everton (H): Won 1-0
Emirates Marketing Project (H): Lost 5-1
Liverpool (A): Lost 4-0
Man Utd (A): Won 2-1

AVB
P W L D GD P
6 0 3 3 -12 3

Sherwood
P W L D GD P
6 2 4 0 -11 6

One could also probably argue that the heaviness of our defeats to both Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project under Sherwood were influenced largely by having a player (wrongly) sent off and a penalty awarded when the game was only 1-0 and competitive.

While we were poor against the big teams under Sherwood last season, we were truly pathetic against them under AVB.

We were equally bad; I don't think AVB was worse than Sherwood.
We could go into the minute details to debate this but i really don't want to derail it into the AVB vs Sherwood thing again...

Overall we have to wait and see with Poch as to whether we really are a pushover with regrads to when we play the 'top sides'.
as you say Liverpool are a well-oiled machine whilst we are still a work in progress atm

 

[Finney Is Back]

We were equally bad; I don't think AVB was worse than Sherwood.
We could go into the minute details to debate this but i really don't want to derail it into the AVB vs Sherwood thing again...

Overall we have to wait and see with Poch as to whether we really are a pushover with regrads to when we play the 'top sides'.
as you say Liverpool are a well-oiled machine whilst we are still a work in progress atm

Perhaps equally bad was fair (although results don't quite back that up).... I was just objecting to the 'especially under Sherwood' part when he clearly wasn't any worse than the manager before him when using the same tools.... The performance against Liverpool at home last season was probably the most inept Spurs performance I have seen since.... perhaps George Graham or Christian Gross.

 

[Raziel]

I agree overall with your assessment of how we should respond to Poch's first 3-6 months and my "must do better" quote may have been a little harsh. Notwithstanding that, it was the nature of our performance and it's similarities to some of last seasons performances against the top sides (granted it didn't have the glaring mistakes and lapses in concentration which blighted us last year) which was what I was most concerned with.

Sterling between the lines, and Henderson coming from deep meant that our midfield two were going to be on the back foot a lot and would be required to cover the runs of these players between the fullbacks and the centre backs. I think Capoue in particular was shown up for his lack of pace and dynamism and Kaboul was shown up for his poor positional play and deteriorating athleticism which impacted his ability to turn quickly. Last season with the added torment that was Suarez we suffered some similar outcomes and I thought that perhaps we might have done things a little differently this time out to combat their style of play.

I said it in a previous post and firmly believe Poch will get it right and upon re- reading my original post agree that the "must do better" quip probably wasn't the best call.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

We will all have to learn some patience, something unfortunately I just don't think Spurs fans have.

I don't know what the solution is, my opinion is Poch could have us play decent football all season, if we finished 7th or 8th, this board would be a blood bath.

How many people are really going to give Chadli, Paulinho, Soldado a chance this season?

 

[Spur of the moment]

We will all have to learn some patience, something unfortunately I just don't think Spurs fans have.

I don't know what the solution is, my opinion is Poch could have us play decent football all season, if we finished 7th or 8th, this board would be a blood bath.

How many people are really going to give Chadli, Paulinho, Soldado a chance this season?

How many chances do you want them to have? The time has come for them to impose their game on the opposition. Tbf there are small signs that at last they may be starting to turn the corner but if instead they revert back to the levels we saw last season, then of course they'll get it in the neck just like any other player at any club that fails to perform over a period of time.

Ask Townsend!

 

[Raziel]

How many chances do you want them to have? The time has come for them to impose their game on the opposition. Tbf there are small signs that at last they may be starting to turn the corner but if instead they revert back to the levels we saw last season, then of course they'll get it in the neck just like any other player at any club that fails to perform over a period of time.

Ask Townsend!

More than 4 games? don't think any of them has actually played more than 3 ... yet read what people think.

Honestly, I'm just calling Spurs fans out, we don't have patience, we aren't going to give anyone a chance (Lamela has done enough to get an Argentina call up, yet he/Poch was being slated because to our fans he doesn't deserve to be selected), and when it goes tits up and we demand players/manager out and it happens, we will blame it on Levy and the "club's" shortsightedness ..

There is no 3-5 year mission ...

 

[Spur of the moment]

More than 4 games? don't think any of them has actually played more than 3 ... yet read what people think.

Honestly, I'm just calling Spurs fans out, we don't have patience, we aren't going to give anyone a chance (Lamela has done enough to get an Argentina call up, yet he/Poch was being slated because to our fans he doesn't deserve to be selected), and when it goes tits up and we demand players/manager out and it happens, we will blame it on Levy and the "club's" shortsightedness ..

There is no 3-5 year mission ...

But we're not just talking four games are we. We're talking four games on top of quite a large number from last season when we witnessed game after game no great effort from Paulinho and Chadli and only fitfull commitment from Soldado.

 

[Spursalot]

But we're not just talking four games are we. We're talking four games on top of quite a large number from last season when we witnessed game after game no great effort from Paulinho and Chadli and only fitfull commitment from Soldado.

And it's not just last season for most, we're still regretting the 'nearly' seasons before that.