Where is it going wrong in attack?

[billyiddo]

Will be interesting to see how we get on against Saudi Sportswashing Machine - a team which should be too proud to come to WHL and camp out in their own half.

Our defence is fairly settled with only one new player in the five starting positions to bed in - coincidently it's the area of the pitch we look most assured/comfortable ... Compare that with attack and midfield where there have been wholesale changes this summer (up to 4/5 new players at a time being played) and i think you can see the reason why we don't look so comfortable in the final 3rd.

It's frustrating though i agree - but im fairly confident still it's just a matter of time before we get better.

 

[GGyid]

Seems like the players are just as frustrated as the fans.

Mousa Dembele claims the White Hart Lane pitch is partly to blame for Tottenham’s lack of goals at home this season.

Spurs have scored just five times in as many matches at their own ground in the Premier League this term, and two of those goals have come from penalties. The 1-0 victory over Hull that took Spurs fourth in the table arrived thanks to a contentious spot-kick 10 minutes from full-time, which was scored by Roberto Soldado.

White Hart Lane is 100 metres long and 67m wide, and even though Spurs played with two orthodox wingers yesterday in Andros Townsend and Aaron Lennon, Dembele believes the dimensions of the playing area are restricting the team.

“It’s not easy for us,” said the Belgian midfielder. “We know that some teams are going to come here and make a block, and we don’t have a big pitch so it’s even more difficult.

“A small pitch makes it harder. If we have more space, it’s easier for us, but we have to find a way. The manager (Andre Villas-Boas) will speak to us as well, because we always have a bit of difficulty with these kinds of teams.

“We’ve spoken about it, and everyone was saying ‘wow, it’s unbelievable – everybody is playing like this against us.’ But it’s not only us, because these kinds of sides do it against all the top teams.

“It’s maybe a bit easier for us when teams try to attack us. It was a similar situation last year in games like this. We hardly ever win them comfortably, but we have a lot of quality in the squad, so there must be a way to find it and I think we will.”

Villas-Boas was very critical of the home support after the game, accusing them of creating an atmosphere that “drags the ball into our goal instead of the opponents’ goal”.

He added: “We weren’t getting any help from anybody and the stadium reflected that: it was very tense with not a lot of support until the first goal, which made it very difficult.”

Dembele was more measured than his manager but admitted that the players had been affected by the tension inside the ground.

The 26-year-old said: “It’s not something that makes it easier, but ok we understand as well that they’re still a bit frustrated from the previous home game against West Ham (which Spurs lost 3-0), and we were very disappointed as well. We didn’t like it either because we want to win every game.”

 

[diego_maradona]

As I said earlier, I don't think there is a genuine belief that we are going to score with every attack. We are just going through the motions at times. But looking a little closer, I think it is often just a numbers game. We wonder why the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea don't struggle to score even though teams are camped in their own area.

Well let's look at a few examples here of yesterdays game with Chelsea and us.

I think the full backs of late have not done enough to overload the flanks giving us a chance to change the angle of attack and get to the byline. We can see here:

Andros is doing what he does, driving at the opposition. Here we don't have Walker up in support on the outside, and Lewis is drifting in too. And for me Soldado is also perhaps a little too easy to mark here. He likes to look for the little give and go's. Occasionally it might be better to hang off the last defender and get on his blind side so he doesn't know where he is. Ok so this is a counter attack, but part of the problem is we are so eager to get at them, particularly Andros that we don't wait for that support to arrive. I don't think we get enough numbers into the box either.

Let's look at a Chelsea example v City:

So Ivanovic and Shurrle are both on the flank so they can work a good position. But look how many numbers they have in the box. And better still, look at the positions they take up. In between the lines and off the shoulder of their man. It already looks like a dangerous situation.

And it's something the constantly do well. Here's another example:

When we do get wide and in similar positions up the pitch look at our forwards in the box. Soldado's position looks good but Defoe and Eriksen could push up here. Hull would struggle to deal with that many numbers in the box.

Here's another example:

Two men in the box, this looks better. But there needs to be a genuine belief from Soldado and Defoe that they will get on the end of the cross. Perhaps they aren't confident that ball will be delivered by Townsend here. (This is actually where he crashed into the boards).

Here's the pen incident. At least we have two in the box and a few lurking behind. I think Eriksen should be a little further forward or perhaps off the shoulder of the last man.

I think as long as we do get numbers in the box, and Paulinho is good at doing this, timing his runs and making it 2 or 3 in the box, then we need some composure and quality to pick out a man.

Far too often I feel we labour yet don't commit enough into the box or there isn't a genuine belief of those in the box that they will get on the end of a cross or if the cross is even coming. Or we have been too narrow. The full backs are absolutely key to this.

 

[NLS]

What is going wrong up front???? We are not enough of a threat with a lone small striker and the stats back it up....

Defoe has scored 1 league goal in 2013 and Soldado has only scored 1 from open play. Both players are hardly ever on the ball.

We NEED Benteke.... Simple.

 

[chancer]

Seems like the players are just as frustrated as the fans.

Mousa Dembele claims the White Hart Lane pitch is partly to blame for Tottenham’s lack of goals at home this season.

Spurs have scored just five times in as many matches at their own ground in the Premier League this term, and two of those goals have come from penalties. The 1-0 victory over Hull that took Spurs fourth in the table arrived thanks to a contentious spot-kick 10 minutes from full-time, which was scored by Roberto Soldado.

White Hart Lane is 100 metres long and 67m wide, and even though Spurs played with two orthodox wingers yesterday in Andros Townsend and Aaron Lennon, Dembele believes the dimensions of the playing area are restricting the team.

“It’s not easy for us,” said the Belgian midfielder. “We know that some teams are going to come here and make a block, and we don’t have a big pitch so it’s even more difficult.

“A small pitch makes it harder. If we have more space, it’s easier for us, but we have to find a way. The manager (Andre Villas-Boas) will speak to us as well, because we always have a bit of difficulty with these kinds of teams.

“We’ve spoken about it, and everyone was saying ‘wow, it’s unbelievable – everybody is playing like this against us.’ But it’s not only us, because these kinds of sides do it against all the top teams.

“It’s maybe a bit easier for us when teams try to attack us. It was a similar situation last year in games like this. We hardly ever win them comfortably, but we have a lot of quality in the squad, so there must be a way to find it and I think we will.”

Villas-Boas was very critical of the home support after the game, accusing them of creating an atmosphere that “drags the ball into our goal instead of the opponents’ goal”.

He added: “We weren’t getting any help from anybody and the stadium reflected that: it was very tense with not a lot of support until the first goal, which made it very difficult.”

Dembele was more measured than his manager but admitted that the players had been affected by the tension inside the ground.

The 26-year-old said: “It’s not something that makes it easier, but ok we understand as well that they’re still a bit frustrated from the previous home game against West Ham (which Spurs lost 3-0), and we were very disappointed as well. We didn’t like it either because we want to win every game.”

This is important because it really bugs me when pepole say AVB (or any decent manager for that matter) doesn't see the problems fans are complaining about. That is absurd - if fans can see a problem you can be sure a professional coach does and Mousa confirms this here. Also healthy that there seems to be communication about it behind the scenes. So this stuff about "AVB doesn't seem to understand X,Y,Z..." seems naive. Whether he can fix it is the issue, not whether he can see it.

 

[diego_maradona]

What is going wrong up front???? We are not enough of a threat with a lone small striker and the stats back it up....

Defoe has scored 1 league goal in 2013 and Soldado has only scored 1 from open play. Both players are hardly ever on the ball.

We NEED Benteke.... Simple.

This is such a simplistic view of the problem. It's more to do with our approach play. Benteke might have more success because he could bulldoze his way through at times. But need to show a bit more cohesion as a team and build play together and visualise how we want to score. Work players into the right positions so we can be a genuine threat.

 

[camspur]

I think as long as we do get numbers in the box, and Paulinho is good at doing this, timing his runs and making it 2 or 3 in the box, then we need some composure and quality to pick out a man.

Far too often I feel we labour yet don't commit enough into the box or there isn't a genuine belief of those in the box that they will get on the end of a cross or if the cross is even coming. Or we have been too narrow. The full backs are absolutely key to this.

I think that's a pretty simplistic view taking a couple of random photos from a different game (and team) to prove a point about getting numbers in the box, those photos show nothing of the build up play prior to the pass (speed of attack, counter attack or even if it was a free kick taken quickly) and I'm sure if I could be bothered I could find equally damning photos to counter that argument (but have neither the time nor inclination).

However, the part about lack of commitment to get onto a cross has been a problem I've felt Defoe has had for all his career and I fear is something he won't change in his game.

 

[diego_maradona]

I think that's a pretty simplistic view taking a couple of random photos from a different game (and team) to prove a point about getting numbers in the box, those photos show nothing of the build up play prior to the pass (speed of attack, counter attack or even if it was a free kick taken quickly) and I'm sure if I could be bothered I could find equally damning photos to counter that argument (but have neither the time nor inclination).

However, the part about lack of commitment to get onto a cross has been a problem I've felt Defoe has had for all his career and I fear is something he won't change in his game.

That's fair enough. You're absolutely right in talking about the build up prior to the screenshots shown. But that's kind of the point. We don't work those opportunities shown in the screenshots enough. Townsend constantly driving infield is great if we have Kyle Walker tearing it down the right side in support. Like I say, I don't think we commit enough numbers into the box at the right time. I'm not talking about overly committing and leaving us exposed. More just getting Holtby/Eriksen/Paulinho/Siggy/Lennon or whoever into the box at the point of getting a cross in.

How often did we work an opportunity similar to that shown in the Chelsea screen grabs in yesterdays game or v West Ham.

Look honestly, I'm ecstatic with the way things are going at the club. I love the squad we have assembled. I don't have anything really to complain about and generally I don't. I'm just looking at and analysing quickly situations in which we could hurt an opposition who chooses to camp in their box.

 

[NLS]

This is such a simplistic view of the problem. It's more to do with our approach play. Benteke might have more success because he could bulldoze his way through at times. But need to show a bit more cohesion as a team and build play together and visualise how we want to score. Work players into the right positions so we can be a genuine threat.

Our two strikers in 2013 are on average scoring a league goal from open play once every 14 games despite us often dominating possession and territory.

Suarez and Sturridge have scored 14 already this season I read this morning. 14 from 9 as opposed to two from 28... That equates to 42 from 28 games as opposed to our 2 from 28....Surely that must tell everyone that something needs to change.

We NEED Benteke.... Simple.

 

[diego_maradona]

Our two strikers in 2013 are on average scoring a league goal from open play once every 14 games despite us often dominating possession and territory.

Suarez and Sturridge have scored 14 already this season I read this morning. 14 from 9 as opposed to two from 28... That equates to 42 from 28 games as opposed to our 2 from 28....Surely that must tell everyone that something needs to change.

We NEED Benteke.... Simple.

I would bet that if threw Benteke in the same team in place of Soldado, things wouldn't dramatically change. It's not necessarily a personnel change for me. We were critical of Defoe. Then Ade. Now Soldado. All three have shown throughout their careers that they can be prolific goalscorers. But we are not creating enough chances. Sure the strikers could do more but it's a bigger issue in my mind.

 

[scaramanga]

Our two strikers in 2013 are on average scoring a league goal from open play once every 14 games despite us often dominating possession and territory.

Suarez and Sturridge have scored 14 already this season I read this morning. 14 from 9 as opposed to two from 28... That equates to 42 from 28 games as opposed to our 2 from 28....Surely that must tell everyone that something needs to change.

We NEED Benteke.... Simple.

Wow, lucky football's that easy - otherwise we might struggle to solve all of our problems.

Villa have Benteke, shall we just give them the Premiership trophy now?

 

[punk_is_back`]

Wow, lucky football's that easy - otherwise we might struggle to solve all of our problems.

Villa have Benteke, shall we just give them the Premiership trophy now?

Benteke's added physicality, technique and aerial ability allows him to hold up the ball and cause problems for defenders. CBs are getting quicker and more mobile nowadays, Soldado will never outpace or outmuscle these new type of centrebacks. So they can often mark him out of games quite easily. Benteke is able to make himself more of a nuisance as he has that added athleticism and technique to his game.

 

[scaramanga]

Benteke's added physicality, technique and aerial ability allows him to hold up the ball and cause problems for defenders. CBs are getting quicker and more mobile nowadays, Soldado will never outpace or outmuscle these new type of centrebacks. So they can often mark him out of games quite easily. Benteke is able to make himself more of a nuisance as he has that added athleticism and technique to his game.

So Villa will win the title?

Or is it a little more complicated than buy Benteke = problem solved?

 

[camspur]

That's fair enough. You're absolutely right in talking about the build up prior to the screenshots shown. But that's kind of the point. We don't work those opportunities shown in the screenshots enough. Townsend constantly driving infield is great if we have Kyle Walker tearing it down the right side in support. Like I say, I don't think we commit enough numbers into the box at the right time. I'm not talking about overly committing and leaving us exposed. More just getting Holtby/Eriksen/Paulinho/Siggy/Lennon or whoever into the box at the point of getting a cross in.

How often did we work an opportunity similar to that shown in the Chelsea screen grabs in yesterdays game or v West Ham.

Look honestly, I'm ecstatic with the way things are going at the club. I love the squad we have assembled. I don't have anything really to complain about and generally I don't. I'm just looking at and analysing quickly situations in which we could hurt an opposition who chooses to camp in their box.

Maybe we don't put the ball into the box like that because we have Soldado and Defoe up front, neither are renowned for being 6'3" target men, and it would just be an easy head out for the defence.

And I honestly don't think adding a 6'3" target man is the solution to our problems as they would soon become separated from the rest of the team on field and then become the spacegoat for "not linking up with the rest of the team" a la Peter Crouch.

 

[camspur]

So Villa will win the title?

Or is it a little more complicated than buy Benteke = problem solved?

I'll go with you on this one, it is a lot more complicated than buying Benteke.

 

[punk_is_back`]

So Villa will win the title?

Or is it a little more complicated than buy Benteke = problem solved?

Its nothing as black and white as that; it's just that having strikers that keep defenders busy, create chances for themselves through technique or physicality and who can hold the ball up would be better than having two hobbits in Defoe and Soldado who are very one dimensional in their play. With those two up front, there is not much to aim for as defenders will always outpace them or outmuscle them; so the ball needs to be delivered with pin point accuracy into space as there is no use playing it to feet with those guys up top. I also believe that having Sig on the wing doesn't help, as he isn't a winger. Hopefully we can integrate both Eriksen and holtby into the team. **** only play with one midfielder sitting deep; if those two keep their fitness levels up during the game they could be potent weapons in front of someone like Sandro. Right now playing two of our beasts in midfield also seems to stifle us creatively.

 

[diego_maradona]

Maybe we don't put the ball into the box like that because we have Soldado and Defoe up front, neither are renowned for being 6'3" target men, and it would just be an easy head out for the defence.

And I honestly don't think adding a 6'3" target man is the solution to our problems as they would soon become separated from the rest of the team on field and then become the spacegoat for "not linking up with the rest of the team" a la Peter Crouch.

I don't think we need to swing it in for the strikers to head. It could be swung in low or we could cut the ball back. We just need options in the box. I want to see Soldado, Defoe being joined by Paulinho, Eriksen, Holtby, Siggy in the box to give us a real presence, when we work the ball in from wide. I'd like to see them with some belief and standing between the centre backs or off their shoulder. It's not like currently some of these players are a million miles away from the box, they are just standing 10 or 15 yards back but just pushing a little further forward at the point of when the ball is swung in can make difference. In all honesty, I'm just plucking out ideas in my head, it's probably a load of cr*p. I think a lot of it ultimately comes down to belief. Players in form believe they are going to score whenever we attack, we are clearly not there yet.

 

[scaramanga]

Its nothing as black and white as that; it's just that having strikers that keep defenders busy, create chances for themselves through technique or physicality and who can hold the ball up would be better than having two hobbits in Defoe and Soldado who are very one dimensional in their play. With those two up front, there is not much to aim for as defenders will always outpace them or outmuscle them; so the ball needs to be delivered with pin point accuracy into space as there is no use playing it to feet with those guys up top. I also believe that having Sig on the wing doesn't help, as he isn't a winger. Hopefully we can integrate both Eriksen and holtby into the team. **** only play with one midfielder sitting deep; if those two keep their fitness levels up during the game they could be potent weapons in front of someone like Sandro. Right now playing two of our beasts in midfield also seems to stifle us creatively.

I'll take the last point first - I don't see Paulinho as a 'beast' or any kind of defensive player. It's tough to describe his position without referring to Lampard but I know that's a cliché so I'll just call him a 'forward central midfielder'. That's behind a number 10 but well in advance of a DM.

As for your description of how we'd play with Benteke, no thanks. I've seen what happens to teams when you introduce 'a target' and if you think our current football is ugly then you'll be in a world of disappoint. There are plenty of other euphemisms to cover up ugly play, 'making a nuisance of himself' that usually means dirty, snide fouls - Shearer was good at that. 'A physical presence up front' Allardyce is a fan of that one I believe.

I agree regarding Sig, Eriksen and Holtby - that's where the problem lies. If Eriksen can play to the potential he's already shown us then I think we'll score for fun.

 

[punk_is_back`]

I'll take the last point first - I don't see Paulinho as a 'beast' or any kind of defensive player. It's tough to describe his position without referring to Lampard but I know that's a cliché so I'll just call him a 'forward central midfielder'. That's behind a number 10 but well in advance of a DM.

As for your description of how we'd play with Benteke, no thanks. I've seen what happens to teams when you introduce 'a target' and if you think our current football is ugly then you'll be in a world of disappoint. There are plenty of other euphemisms to cover up ugly play, 'making a nuisance of himself' that usually means dirty, snide fouls - Shearer was good at that. 'A physical presence up front' Allardyce is a fan of that one I believe.

I agree regarding Sig, Eriksen and Holtby - that's where the problem lies. If Eriksen can play to the potential he's already shown us then I think we'll score for fun.

Benteke's hold up play along the floor would be good, he can hold up the play along the floor like Berbatov. He's not just a knockdown merchant. Right now we are playing the ball to Soldado and it is going straight back downfield. Benteke gives us an option of laying it off or spinning his marker and going for goal. It allows for more variation in our play.

 

[mudshark]

We don't move the ball forward quickly enough for me, and we don't get players in position to support attacks quickly enough, if at all. There was one chance yesterday that Soldado had, he shot across goal, trying to curl it past Harper, who got a hand to it but could only palm it out. A classic situation where, had there been anyone following in at the far post, they'd have had a tap-in, but all there was there was an acre of empty space, as usual. No-one ever seems to want to take a gamble and make a run; they all seem content to stand and watch each other attack in ones and twos.

Our players frequently look as though they haven't got a clue what to do with the ball once it crosses the halfway line either, and we seem to spend endless periods rolling it from side to side across the centre-circle. When we do manage to work the ball forward towards the edge of the opponent's 18-yard line, the player receiving it almost always has his back to goal, and because he doesn't have confidence in his own ability to hold it up, back it comes again another 10 or 20 yards, before anyone has had time to support properly. Then off it goes again sideways or back towards the halfway line. Sometimes, it's like watching a tape loop.

The point about hold-up play is the main reason I'll be glad when Adebayor is at least back in contention for a place again. We desperately need more options.