Where is it going wrong in attack?

[Modric THFC]

Playing against 10 men behind the ball week after week and this is the plan he comes up with?
Fast wingers with no space to run into. Neither of which is able to pass the ball effectively.
Two ball winners in the middle of the pitch, slowing down play and completely unable to find a pass.
A back four with a high line? If we were gonna play with fast countering attacking players surely you sit back and hit them on the break?
Then you have one creative player in team but play him in an area that the rest of the team arent comfortable passing into because he's outnumbered and they cant pass for ****.
Then you have a striker making subtle runs but outnumbered in the middle, never getting service because the wingers can only cross into an area, not pass accurately, and the two in the middle are passing it sideways.

And this is the plan?

Its not even that AVB football is not pretty its that its not effective and its doesn't make sense.
He set us out today at home with a the formation and tactics as if we were away to United or City.

 

[Robspur12]

Playing against 10 men behind the ball week after week and this is the plan he comes up with?
Fast wingers with no space to run into. Neither of which is able to pass the ball effectively.
Two ball winners in the middle of the pitch, slowing down play and completely unable to find a pass.
A back four with a high line? If we were gonna play with fast countering attacking players surely you sit back and hit them on the break?
Then you have one creative player in team but play him in an area that the rest of the team arent comfortable passing into because he's outnumbered and they cant pass for ****.
Then you have a striker making subtle runs but outnumbered in the middle, never getting service because the wingers can only cross into an area, not pass accurately, and the two in the middle are passing it sideways.

And this is the plan?

Its not even that AVB football is not pretty its that its not effective and its doesn't make sense.
He set us out today at home with a the formation and tactics as if we were away to United or City.

=D> best analysis of the game today.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So in the end does it come down to AVB? He is reminding me of Capello when he was England Manager- unable to see past a rigid system of play and unable to make tactical changes during a game. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt, he was able to deal with the "late goals conceded" hopefully he will be able to turn this around.

It may by AVB. On his own but I also think it's the players finding their feet too

Eriksen came on today and strolled around where ever he wanted. He played today like he did at Ajax against the poor teams

Lamella looks like a youth player coming into the first team

Chadli looks average at best IMO

Paulinho looks a great success already although I can't work out his position

Soldados is IMO and outstanding goal scorer who thrives of fast one touch football which were currently not playing

All of these players other than Chadli to me look like they have several more gears in them. I don't believe for one second AVB. Is holding them back from performing. If feels like there playing within themselves a lot

What we need to do (AVB does) is decide on a system (which I think he has) and work out his best team for that system. He has to recognise that people see us a title challengers this year and will defend first and foremost and he has to adapt. He has the playing talent, he just had to unleash them

 

[SteveAWOL]

Hehe, yeah, well, 3 out of those 7 goals scored on Hull were from outside the area. But I agree, of course. Although one of our problems this season has been not hitting the frame with shots from outside the area. Sigurdsson is the only one who can hit them from distance and at least hit the target.

Ah but all 3 of those goals Hull conceded from outside the area were direct free-kicks which is not an area that we exactly excel at!

 

[ringo]

I'm not convinced AVB does have a system. Or if he does I'm not sure he has the players for that system. Which seems crazy after spending all that money -but borne out from the evidence on the pitch.

If you buy a striker like Soldado you must know how he plays. He isn't going to come out of the box too much. So you have to get the ball to him in the box. Either to feet, or little one twos, or passes down the channels to the side of the defender.

But we haven't got a #10 who seems comfortable between the lines of four.
The wide players cut in and compress the space, making it difficult to play the right ball to Soldado.
We have two DMs who are predominately defensive and not playmakers.

Here is a simple thing. More than few times the wide player has beaten the full back. Soldado pulls ooff his man to the edge of the box. We ping it across the goalmouth or hold it up the back post. That's just thoughtless football.

A good start to sorting things out:
1. Get Ade back ASAP. At home play 4-4-2 with Ade and Soldado.
2. in a 5-2-3-1 decide who you want to play in which position and give them a regular run out in that position.
3. Play a DM and Eriksen/Holtby.
4. Don't play Lennon and Townsend, unless we are expecting to play on the counter.

 

[thfcsteff]

Playing against 10 men behind the ball week after week and this is the plan he comes up with?
Fast wingers with no space to run into. Neither of which is able to pass the ball effectively.
Two ball winners in the middle of the pitch, slowing down play and completely unable to find a pass.
A back four with a high line? If we were gonna play with fast countering attacking players surely you sit back and hit them on the break?
Then you have one creative player in team but play him in an area that the rest of the team arent comfortable passing into because he's outnumbered and they cant pass for ****.
Then you have a striker making subtle runs but outnumbered in the middle, never getting service because the wingers can only cross into an area, not pass accurately, and the two in the middle are passing it sideways.

And this is the plan?

Its not even that AVB football is not pretty its that its not effective and its doesn't make sense.
He set us out today at home with a the formation and tactics as if we were away to United or City.

I think he made a major mistake today in playing two wingers but not being able to

a) cut them loose by finding them quickly and
b) not having anything resembling a pacy left -back (with Rose out that's a tough egg to crack right now)

Holtby was his other major issue (for me) today. If you play Holtby instead of Eriksen, you cannot then play Sandro and Paulinho because it simply doesn't make sense in the Prem. I think, perhaps, AVB expected more from Holtby in terms of clever movement, but he's learning that Eriksen is the only one who plays that space effectively and who possesses that creativity. Perhaps Holtby shows more in training, I don't know...I do absolutely agree that today, we needed to stretch the play and open it up wide as opposed to trying to weave through traffic, and indeed ADDING to the congestion. But I trust him to figure it out. I really do...

 

[VolSpur]

Don't mean to go against the negativity and all that, but i think the addition of Danny Rose could solve quite a few problems and bring more balance to our attack. We seem to be all right side atm and Danny helps out a lot more than some think.

Also find it a little funny how everyone on here was going on about our team needing time to gel and now that we're in the midst of that very time everyone's freaking out it's not working perfectly yet.

The more amazing thing is we've managed 12 clean sheets out of a possible 15 in all comps

Where's the thread about that???

 

[Modric THFC]

Don't mean to go against the negativity and all that, but i think the addition of Danny Rose could solve quite a few problems and bring more balance to our attack. We seem to be all right side atm and Danny helps out a lot more than some think.

Also find it a little funny how everyone on here was going on about our team needing time to gel and now that we're in the midst of that very time everyone's freaking out it's not working perfectly yet.

The more amazing thing is we've managed 12 clean sheets out of a possible 15 in all comps

Where's the thread about that???

The clean sheets is a symptom of our negative play with 2 ball winners in midfield. Same as us only scoring 9 goals in 9 league games.
The team gelling issue is completely overstated today. We had 3 players starting who weren't here last season (Paulinho, Soldado and Chiriches). Liverpool had 4 on saturday. Why are they able to pass the ball around effectively and we're not?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

For me it's a case of the midfield dwelling on the ball for two long, the forwards being too static and the fact that we do not play close passing give and go. The latter element is something that Arsenal have always done well.

 

[Mulletperm]

As Steff mentioned I think a problem is having Holtby there with Sandro and Paulinho.

Holtby reminds me a little of how Rooney used to be chasing the ball all over the park and then not being available to be the link between DM and the striker. There were a number of times when we had Sandro, Paulinho and Holtby all within a few yards of each other.

 

[Raziel]

The clean sheets is a symptom of our negative play with 2 ball winners in midfield. Same as us only scoring 9 goals in 9 league games.
The team gelling issue is completely overstated today. We had 3 players starting who weren't here last season (Paulinho, Soldado and Chiriches). Liverpool had 4 on saturday. Why are they able to pass the ball around effectively and we're not?

Playing a little game there, Holtby and Townsend barely played for us last season, so that number now becomes 5. And I would not compare Pool to something we aspire to be.

Funny how we get clean sheets and more goals in Europe, how come that isn't our negativity?

Fact is in the PL, our opponents in general are much more negative, Hull started today with a backline of 5, look at a lot of our attacks, with a player half way in Hulls' half, there is still 11 players in front of him.

 

[Mulletperm]

Playing a little game there, Holtby and Townsend barely played for us last season, so that number now becomes 5. And I would not compare Pool to something we aspire to be.

Funny how we get clean sheets and more goals in Europe, how come that isn't our negativity?

Fact is in the PL, our opponents in general are much more negative, Hull started today with a backline of 5, look at a lot of our attacks, with a player half way in Hulls' half, there is still 11 players in front of him.

Curious as to why not. Purely on footballing terms, not with regard to their personnel etc.

 

[Raziel]

Curious as to why not. Purely on footballing terms, not with regard to their personnel etc.

Because I see them as an upscale Swansea to be honest. Yes Rodgers tries to play football, but it's almost the opposite of AVB. Rodgers record against most teams higher up the table last season highlights how his system doesn't scale up, even when being carried by a player like Saurez (**** that he is).

I look at the teams and go -> we have work to do in the final 3rd, that last piece to allow us to kill off games and push on. Pool for me, would have to change their game significantly to become more consistent (and not counting 9 games as a significant indicator of where they are), hence imo, further off the top.

 

[Daisuk]

We still haven't won by a three goal margin at home in the Premier League under AVB. Not a big thing necessarily, but it shows some symptoms of a team more concerned about defense than offense, perhaps.

 

[scaramanga]

Playing against 10 men behind the ball week after week and this is the plan he comes up with?
Fast wingers with no space to run into. Neither of which is able to pass the ball effectively.

Wingers tend to be fast, it goes with the job description. If the opposition won't give them space, what would you have them do?

Two ball winners in the middle of the pitch, slowing down play and completely unable to find a pass.

Paulinho isn't a ball winner. Just because he can tackle, it doesn't make it his primary role.

A back four with a high line? If we were gonna play with fast countering attacking players surely you sit back and hit them on the break?

How do you play on the break when the opposition refuses to leave their own penalty box?

Then you have one creative player in team but play him in an area that the rest of the team arent comfortable passing into because he's outnumbered and they cant pass for ****.

Where would you have played him? There was a lot of space next to Dawson..... Maybe in goal - plenty of space there.

Then you have a striker making subtle runs but outnumbered in the middle, never getting service because the wingers can only cross into an area, not pass accurately, and the two in the middle are passing it sideways.

That's pretty much what happens when teams park the bus. There are a very small handful of wingers who can pinpoint a cross from the wing (as opposed to just putting it into a dangerous area), Beckham was one (if you gave him space) I can't think of one we could get though.

And this is the plan?

Its not even that AVB football is not pretty its that its not effective and its doesn't make sense.
He set us out today at home with a the formation and tactics as if we were away to United or City.

This is what comes with success. Teams will defend for their lives against us and little else. Once we've had 10 years of practice I suspect we'll be as good as Utd at breaking these teams down. You will almost never see us play on the break now, because we're not some plucky mid table team any more, we're a team people fear and they'll play accordingly.

 

[Yiddo]

1 word, ADE.

 

[El Guepardo]

I think we're being frustrated as much by the defensive attitude, anti football ways, of the teams that we play against as much as we are frustrated by our own team.

We want an open game so that the players can express themselves. But, any rival manager knows that if they play too open, they'll get taken apart by our side and so they put almost every man behind the ball. That in turn stifles our play, the aim of the tactic employed by the opposition, gets our fans frustrated in the stands and perhaps our team's confidence suffers a bit for that.

I think we need to realise that there will be games like that. It's how we beat those tactics. I've provided my view points in the thread that I started so not going to write them all out in full again.

We need width, we need more movement with players looking for a pass and we need to expose the weaknesses in the opposition. Target a left back who has been booked or looks shaky etc

We'll look better in a lot of these games if we can score an early goal. That will settle nerves, in addition to opening up the opposition. Until then sometimes we might have to be more patient than we'd like to be.

 

[camspur]

I've seen posts asking for counter-attack football, Spurs can't do that for one reason, it requires opponents to attack us first. All I've seen is a desire to camp 10 players within 10 yards of their own box and stop us playing. This in turn leads to us playing the slow build up football everyone is complaining about.

Winning is about showing character to to fight it out to the end, two seasons ago a 0-0 with 10 minutes to go would've brought out an all out attack attitude and a 1-0 loss, this season we've fought to the bitter end and won games late on. I know which of the two options I prefer.

 

[scaramanga]

I've seen posts asking for counter-attack football, Spurs can't do that for one reason, it requires opponents to attack us first. All I've seen is a desire to camp 10 players within 10 yards of their own box and stop us playing. This in turn leads to us playing the slow build up football everyone is complaining about.

Winning is about showing character to to fight it out to the end, two seasons ago a 0-0 with 10 minutes to go would've brought out an all out attack attitude and a 1-0 loss, this season we've fought to the bitter end and won games late on. I know which of the two options I prefer.

Quite.

Hopefully, when teams see that we keep on winning even against defensive play they might think that they may as well attack us. I don't hold out much hope though.

 

[the fox in the box]

I posted this in another thread, but I thought I should add it hear...


Hull was the first game of the season I have been to. There were two main things that I think we were lacking.


1. We missed Rose, Verts is just not going to be an attacking threat down the wing and offered almost nothing. As we were playing with walker and Verts as attackers, especially in the second half. We would have been better off brining on Lemela for him and going for it. This also begs the question why we got rid of BAE? He would have been great in a game like this as he has always been an effective attacking full back. This left us with Townsend on the other wing and he just got marked out the game as Verts lacked threat.

2. Movement. It was clear that holtby/ Erikson and Lennon/ Townsend lacked any desire to change it up and find space or pull defenders out of position. This is why we ended up passing back and fourth for large periods of the game.


Sort these out and I think we will be much more effective in attack...