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What is our partnership with Madrid?

DublinSpur said:
I don't know what benefits we derive from our "Strategic Partnership", but we clearly don't have their two best players of the past two years - so they are getting a lot more out of this relationship than we are (they take our best player and the next day strengthen our biggest rival). As I say, it looks very much like we are their feeder club. And in return we get what? A peek at their scouting database once in a while? Some unspecified "collaboration" between coaching staff? It's hard to see those things as much more than a fig leaf, covering the shame of our capitulation.

If Real Madrid decide to tap up our best player next summer, our "Strategic Partnership" isn't going to stop them, is it? And while ending this relationship won't stop them either, it will at least stop us looking like willing participants in this disrespectful behaviour.
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(Just cut the rest of your well written post/email as this seems the essential bit to me)

Clarifying question: Say AVB, Baldini and Levy agree that there is a benefit to our club from our agreement with Real Madrid. Something that helps the club. Coaching, scouting, financial, marketing or whatever. But a benefit, however invisible from the outside.

You say that the outgoing transfers probably wouldn't have been stopped, I don't think they were even influenced at all, by our agreement.

Is the only benefit to cancelling this agreement that we save face in public? That we don't "look like willing participants"? Just public perception? If all this is true, would you still want the club to cancel the agreement? Knowing that the benefit, whatever impact it may have, would be lost to the club?
 
How do we know that Real didn't help/weren't responsible for scouting all our new signings? It all happened really quickly after Baldini got here, and he has good connections there...

I wouldn't dismiss the partnership so quickly. As for their behaviour re Bale, they've always lacked class, IMO.

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braineclipse said:
(Just cut the rest of your well written post/email as this seems the essential bit to me)

Clarifying question: Say AVB, Baldini and Levy agree that there is a benefit to our club from our agreement with Real Madrid. Something that helps the club. Coaching, scouting, financial, marketing or whatever. But a benefit, however invisible from the outside.

You say that the outgoing transfers probably wouldn't have been stopped, I don't think they were even influenced at all, by our agreement.

Is the only benefit to cancelling this agreement that we save face in public? That we don't "look like willing participants"? Just public perception? If all this is true, would you still want the club to cancel the agreement? Knowing that the benefit, whatever impact it may have, would be lost to the club?
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The way I look at it is quite simple. I've no doubt we derive *some* benefit from the partnership. But for me, that benefit would have to be pretty significant to allow a "partner" to regularly express public disrespect for the club, indeed to act in a way that implies a certain level of contempt for Tottenham Hotspur (that's my reading of Zidane's remarks, maybe others differ).

From what I know, we are not gaining that "significant" benefit. If we are, then the club should make that clear. What I'd like to see is a statement from Levy either dissolving the partnership or explaining it in more detail. Something like this should suffice...

"While the club is dismayed at the behaviour of certain Real Madrid employees, in particular but not limited to Mr. Zidane whose remarks were less than respectful of Tottenham Hotspur and their fans, we believe the benefits derived by our club outweigh such behaviour. These benefits include: [list of benefits].

Of course, if the disrespectful attitude of Real Madrid employees should continue, then we will be forced to re-evaluate our partnership despite these benefits. But for now, and in anticipation of a public apology from Real Madrid with regards to the statements of some of their employees, we hope to maintain our links with one of the biggest clubs in the world."
 
Superhudd said:
We have seen in he past two years that to be true, but I'd like to think that our scouting goes beyond those players with that mentality, but players that want to succeed club wise and money although nice is somewhat secondary, I think you will find though the players that join the PSGs, Monaco's and even the Anzi's are pretty much 3rd ownership driven or known greedy mercenaries from South America, very few are from the countries these teams reside from.

I also think that once Madrid want you why would you want to go elsewhere. I also think that although its detrimental to have this pact with Madrid, Levy clearly has a sour taste in his mouth for lottery winning teams.. as do many fans.

i think when we negotiate our deals it's beneficial that we can say.. Look at Modric and Bale. You too with hard work could achieve that. Doesn't matter what anyone says, that mystique is worth more than money.

Also just to add, unless we build a new stadium we cannot realistically have power over players. The only way to end this cycle is to have the balls to start the stadium, which in turn enables us to go and offer 140k to players like the quality of Ozil. Lets hope come
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We all have a distaste for the lottery winners. That's why I didn't mention any of them in the list of potential destinations to go to. Juve, Barca, Bayern, AC Milan (if they ever sort themselves out)....you can't tell me all these clubs are less appealing than Madrid. If Madrid want you, and if Levy refuses to sell to them, would you sulk and moan? Sure you would. But then if Bayern came in for you, at a price Levy finds acceptable, would you refuse the move because your heart's set on being bullied by Ramos and Ronaldo in Madrid? I'd wager 99.99 percent of players won't. They're still moving to a 'super-club', just not the one in Spain.

And I'd like to think we negotiate our deals without outing ourselves as a feeder club to potential recruits. 'Look at Modric and Bale. You too with hard work could achieve that.' I'd imagine if Bongani Khumalo had been a success here, SuperSport Utd would have used the same logic to attract their recruits. "Look at Bongs Khumalo...playing for Spurs...they've got scouts here, we're partners...you could be noticed by them if you work hard enough." It might be an appealing pitch, but it doesn't stop change the reality that they are our feeder club, they just choose to glamourise that fact.

And on the last point, agree completely. Despite the pipe dreams of a 50 million net spend, we've made a profit again this summer. The money saved up for the stadium must be growing if (as I suspect) we're feeding all profits anywhere into the fund. Hopefully that means a real announcement sometime this year.
 
braineclipse said:
(Just cut the rest of your well written post/email as this seems the essential bit to me)

Clarifying question: Say AVB, Baldini and Levy agree that there is a benefit to our club from our agreement with Real Madrid. Something that helps the club. Coaching, scouting, financial, marketing or whatever. But a benefit, however invisible from the outside.

You say that the outgoing transfers probably wouldn't have been stopped, I don't think they were even influenced at all, by our agreement.

Is the only benefit to cancelling this agreement that we save face in public? That we don't "look like willing participants"? Just public perception? If all this is true, would you still want the club to cancel the agreement? Knowing that the benefit, whatever impact it may have, would be lost to the club?
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If we cannot find a more suitable marketing partner than the team that has relentlessly tapped up our two best players over the last two years, and if we cannot possibly discover the best coaching practices ourselves, or build the best scouting network ourselves....then maybe we ought to evaluate more than just the partnership with Real Madrid. Maybe we should evaluate why we can't stand on our own feet when other clubs can, and why we have to rely on an odious, extremely duplicitous club just to function as a football team should. ( I suspect I know the answer, and it's very Redknapp-shaped, but we've had a whole year to build something since then)

This partnership with Real Madrid is like choosing to live with an abusive partner. Sure, you might look a good couple, and sure, he or she may teach you things, and sure, they might buy you a few things now and then....but does that make up for the abuse you receive? Does it help you become any more independent?
 
DublinSpur said:
The way I look at it is quite simple. I've no doubt we derive *some* benefit from the partnership. But for me, that benefit would have to be pretty significant to allow a "partner" to regularly express public disrespect for the club, indeed to act in a way that implies a certain level of contempt for Tottenham Hotspur (that's my reading of Zidane's remarks, maybe others differ).

From what I know, we are not gaining that "significant" benefit. If we are, then the club should make that clear. What I'd like to see is a statement from Levy either dissolving the partnership or explaining it in more detail. Something like this should suffice...

"While the club is dismayed at the behaviour of certain Real Madrid employees, in particular but not limited to Mr. Zidane whose remarks were less than respectful of Tottenham Hotspur and their fans, we believe the benefits derived by our club outweigh such behaviour. These benefits include: [list of benefits].

Of course, if the disrespectful attitude of Real Madrid employees should continue, then we will be forced to re-evaluate our partnership despite these benefits. But for now, and in anticipation of a public apology from Real Madrid with regards to the statements of some of their employees, we hope to maintain our links with one of the biggest clubs in the world."
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Question of definition for "significant" of course. I'm guessing that as annoyed as we as fans have been with Real and their antics, and as tiresome the Bale saga has gotten for us it's all been just as bad or worse for Levy. And he has to deal with the Madrid people face to face too. If there wasn't a "significant" benefit, however you define it, don't you think he would be well on his way to cancelling that agreement already?

I'm not expecting any statements detailing internal workings at the club. This just isn't Levy's style. It's not the easiest to live with for us fans, but I think it's a good choice.

DubaiSpur said:
If we cannot find a more suitable marketing partner than the team that has relentlessly tapped up our two best players over the last two years, and if we cannot possibly discover the best coaching practices ourselves, or build the best scouting network ourselves....then maybe we ought to evaluate more than just the partnership with Real Madrid. Maybe we should evaluate why we can't stand on our own feet when other clubs can, and why we have to rely on an odious, extremely duplicitous club just to function as a football team should. ( I suspect I know the answer, and it's very Redknapp-shaped, but we've had a whole year to build something since then)

This partnership with Real Madrid is like choosing to live with an abusive partner. Sure, you might look a good couple, and sure, he or she may teach you things, and sure, they might buy you a few things now and then....but does that make up for the abuse you receive? Does it help you become any more independent?
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I don't think clubs like Real Madrid line up around the block to form partnership agreements with clubs our size.

Your attitude about "standing on our own feet" I disagree with if I'm reading you right. We should seek out and try to find any inspiration, any source of knowledge, any information that we can find to push ourselves further imo. We do not need an insular approach. One of the two big clubs in the most successful footballing nation in <insert whatever timeframe you find appropriate> could be very beneficial.

I thoroughly enjoy most of your posts even when we disagree and I think you're one of the best posters around here. Just my opinion, and said with respect, but that abusive partner analogy is below you.
 
I have more of a problem with them selling Ozil to Arsenal than anything else. They in turn recouped half of that money they gave us for Bale and ****ed us royally up the poop shoot
 
braineclipse said:
I don't think clubs like Real Madrid line up around the block to form partnership agreements with clubs our size.

Your attitude about "standing on our own feet" I disagree with if I'm reading you right. We should seek out and try to find any inspiration, any source of knowledge, any information that we can find to push ourselves further imo. We do not need an insular approach. One of the two big clubs in the most successful footballing nation in <insert whatever timeframe you find appropriate> could be very beneficial.

I thoroughly enjoy most of your posts even when we disagree and I think you're one of the best posters around here. Just my opinion, and said with respect, but that abusive partner analogy is below you.
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Your opinion is appreciated, but it does confuse me somewhat. PM me if you can on that subject, I'd like to know what I said wrong in that analogy. But as far as partnership agreements go, if I read Modric THFC's original post correctly, we apparently rely on them to flesh out our scouting network. Someone else has mentioned that we use their channels to sell club merchandise in the Far East. Some other poster claimed we study their coaching methods and apply them at Hotspur Way. And someone else said we use them to market ourselves.

Now, as far as I can see some of those things are vital to the club's operations. If AVB and his staff rely on Madrid's coaching techniques to improve our players, that's a bad sign as far as I'm concerned, as it implies that we cannot train our players fully without their assistance. Similarly, if our scouting network is apparently so dependent on Madrid that we needed their input to sign a star player in our own goddamn league (Dembele), that implies that we cannot perform even the barest functions on the transfer market ourselves, making me seriously wonder how many players we miss out on because our scouting is apparently so thoroughly inadequate, and how many overpriced or over-rated players we've signed to fill holes in the squad that could have been filled by cheaper, less-known overseas players. And if we can't market ourselves to the Far East without Madrid, why on Earth do we try to do so? We have a lead on nearly every other team in rapidly expanding and potentially lucrative North American market: do we need to let Madrid tap up our players in order to get a thin, thin slice of the Far Eastern one? And if so, what does that so about how our club heads feel about our ability to leverage our foothold in the American market?

As far as I can see, we are not tapping into a top clubs' knowledge: we are either relying on them too much to be considered a suitably independent football club, which is ludicrous considering our status us the 13th richest club in the world, or we are letting them pump us over and over again for a few cosmetic details that are hardly worth them tapping up our players and disrespecting us in the press. Maybe you're right, and partnerships with the biggest clubs in a country are beneficial to clubs like us. But we need to be able to survive if those partnerships are cut, and we need to be able to cut them ourselves if we feel that we're being taken advantage of. And here it seems we can't do either the former, latter, or both. So what does that say about our viability as an independent entity and not some sort of particularly oversized feeder-club?
 
awesome dawson said:
Our partnership with Real Madrid is, they take our best player and hand us a load of cash, which we promptly blow on inferior replacements.
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Er.. You want us to buy superior plays to those we sell?

You want us to buy someone better than bale? Er..
 
DubaiSpur said:
Your opinion is appreciated, but it does confuse me somewhat. PM me if you can on that subject, I'd like to know what I said wrong in that analogy. But as far as partnership agreements go, if I read Modric THFC's original post correctly, we apparently rely on them to flesh out our scouting network. Someone else has mentioned that we use their channels to sell club merchandise in the Far East. Some other poster claimed we study their coaching methods and apply them at Hotspur Way. And someone else said we use them to market ourselves.

Now, as far as I can see some of those things are vital to the club's operations. If AVB and his staff rely on Madrid's coaching techniques to improve our players, that's a bad sign as far as I'm concerned, as it implies that we cannot train our players fully without their assistance. Similarly, if our scouting network is apparently so dependent on Madrid that we needed their input to sign a star player in our own goddamn league (Dembele), that implies that we cannot perform even the barest functions on the transfer market ourselves, making me seriously wonder how many players we miss out on because our scouting is apparently so thoroughly inadequate, and how many overpriced or over-rated players we've signed to fill holes in the squad that could have been filled by cheaper, less-known overseas players. And if we can't market ourselves to the Far East without Madrid, why on Earth do we try to do so? We have a lead on nearly every other team in rapidly expanding and potentially lucrative North American market: do we need to let Madrid tap up our players in order to get a thin, thin slice of the Far Eastern one? And if so, what does that so about how our club heads feel about our ability to leverage our foothold in the American market?

As far as I can see, we are not tapping into a top clubs' knowledge: we are either relying on them too much to be considered a suitably independent football club, which is ludicrous considering our status us the 13th richest club in the world, or we are letting them pump us over and over again for a few cosmetic details that are hardly worth them tapping up our players and disrespecting us in the press. Maybe you're right, and partnerships with the biggest clubs in a country are beneficial to clubs like us. But we need to be able to survive if those partnerships are cut, and we need to be able to cut them ourselves if we feel that we're being taken advantage of. And here it seems we can't do either the former, latter, or both. So what does that say about our viability as an independent entity and not some sort of particularly oversized feeder-club?
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=D> Great post! I don't know what exactly we are getting from this arrangement with Real Madrid but SURELY what has happened over this past summer has been more bad than good. As far as exposure the only thing they have done to help us is by tapping up and then nicking our best players
 
Spursalot said:
They bought bale for far more than he is worth and people are complaining about it?

Shrug..
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A player we never wanted or needed to sell and just gave a new contract to? ****ing right they should have paid far more than he was worth, as would be the case if any other club wanted to buy him
 
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