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What is our partnership with Madrid?

What harm could it possibly do to say how we benefit from this deal? We don't seem to have benefited financially or received anything in return. We've lost 2 of our best players. If this agreement is in the faint hope that Real will eb willing to give us some players, which also doesn't seem to be the case, then that hasn't been achieved.

Next you'll be saying "Stop pestering the govnerment over how we benefit from our relationship with the USA. You're a load of muppets who no nothing about what the terms are." Doesn't quite work like that I'm afraid me old mucka!


Good analogy there. Do we as the public know everything about our relationship with the USA? Quite clearly not. A lot of it will be based around need to know and confidentiality


Of course the failure of the analogy is that the government is voted in and the club is a business that exists to make money.
 
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Good analogy there. Do we as the public know everything about our relationship with the USA? Quite clearly not. A lot of it will be based around need to know and confidentiality


Of course the failure of the analogy is that the government is voted in and the club is a business that exists to make money.

Relying on the inelasticity of fans, who go there regardless of whether they get any information on the running of the club they`ve invested so much emotion into, and do whatever the club tells them to do just to keep going to games, and pays through the nose for the privilege. I don`t know about you, but that feels distinctly sickening to me.

If only we as fans could collectively demand a greater say in how our clubs are run, and in what information is given to us. It might mean not showing up at games, which (if your supposition is correct) is the only way a business will listen to its customers, whether they be loyal or not. But of course, that will raise cries of `fickle supporters`and their places will just be taken by the next blokes in the season ticket waiting list.

Sigh. This is going into the realm of that old debate about whether clubs are just businesses and thus deserve no loyalty or are something more, which I have already covered in that old Financial Fair Play thread. But I can see where you are coming from now. You think the club is a business run solely for profit, and thus does not need to (and indeed shouldn`t) tell its eternally loyal supporters anything beyond shut up, sit down, watch the damn games if that is what it feels is necessary to preserve its profit margins. I`m from the most opposite end of the spectrum possible to you, so we won`t agree on this topic or any subidiary ones connected to it. Fair enough.
 
Relying on the inelasticity of fans, who go there regardless of whether they get any information on the running of the club they`ve invested so much emotion into, and do whatever the club tells them to do just to keep going to games, and pays through the nose for the privilege. I don`t know about you, but that feels distinctly sickening to me.

If only we as fans could collectively demand a greater say in how our clubs are run, and in what information is given to us. It might mean not showing up at games, which (if your supposition is correct) is the only way a business will listen to its customers, whether they be loyal or not. But of course, that will raise cries of `fickle supporters`and their places will just be taken by the next blokes in the season ticket waiting list.

Sigh. This is going into the realm of that old debate about whether clubs are just businesses and thus deserve no loyalty or are something more, which I have already covered in that old Financial Fair Play thread. But I can see where you are coming from now. You think the club is a business run solely for profit, and thus does not need to (and indeed shouldn`t) tell its eternally loyal supporters anything beyond shut up, sit down, watch the damn games if that is what it feels is necessary to preserve its profit margins. I`m from the most opposite end of the spectrum possible to you, so we won`t agree on this topic or any subidiary ones connected to it. Fair enough.


That's not what I have said in any way shape or form.


I don't think the fans need to know everything. They don't. There is no reason to tell them everything. The club tell us a massive amount as it is. We should be thankful for what they do share, not sit around being ****y at what they choose to keep on the down low.


Just because I think the fans should shut up about this one issue, doesn't mean I think they should shut up on every single issue. I am not quite sure where you have arrived at this conclusion.

I also don't think the fans boycotting the game would actually have a massive financial impact, the amount of money that comes into the game from other sources is huge. And anyway, if I was going to boycott the club I would choose a sensible issue on which to do it, not 'they won't tell me about this partnership, wah wah wah.'
 
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I imagine that Levy’s main interest in a ‘strategic partnership’ with Real has nothing to do with players, like so many believe after jumping to conclusions, and will be along the lines of learning the PR methods, business decisions, marketing techniques, sponsorship opportunities and commercial deals that mean they’re the most profitable club in the world by some distance, despite spending unbelievable amounts on playing staff.

How do you explain that to the fans? Do you want to announce to the world that you're learning marketting secrets from madrid? Do you want the press to know? Hell, do Real even want to let you tell people that?

I may be speculating but is it a coincidence that a year after we went into this deal, one of our players has had so much media exposure - he was in the middle of times square ffs – that you can’t walk past a billboard without his face on it and that he’s being talked about in the same bracket as Ronaldo and Messi despite being a clearly inferior player to those two (not a slur in itself but he’s nowhere near them, imo)? I don’t think so, as we’ve had exciting, talented and prolific players before (keane and berbatov) that got nowhere near that level of exposure. He became a Galactico while he was at our club, at the same sort of level that Beckham and Ronaldo reached and with far more marketting exposure than any of ****'s individual 'invincibles' managed; more than Gerrard Rooney etc.

Obviously Bale is a lot more marketable himself than either Keane or Berbatov were, but still, the order of magnitude between how highly they (and modric) were thought of in the press and the sponsorship deals they got, and what we’ve seen from bale in the last 8 months (and it really is the last 8 months, as of last summer to the world media he was the really fast one who scored some great goals against Inter, but 4-5 months ago he started to be seen absolutely everywhere) is quite something.

Levy wants to take spurs from being realistically the 6th biggest in the country, to the biggest, and how better to do that than by learning from a club which is by far and away the most successful at monetizing its success in the world. Sure you can argue that it’s down to write offs by princes or ludicrous tv contracts but over the last 10 years Real have also made obscene amounts by taking advantage of the images of their players and merchandising.

Yeah we’ve sold them our best two players over the past year, but its not like we gave them away cheaply; if RM weren’t in for Modric when he wanted to leave how much do people think we would have got for him given he had been desperate to go for over a year? Most people agreed they’d rather he go to Madrid than Chelsea or Man U at the time. Who would have believed that we’d get a WR fee for Bale 6 months ago? Even when he was repeatedly winning matches for us single handedly the most fanatical of spurs fans would have struggled rationalising how he was worth 4 RVP’s, 2.5 Modric’s and more than a Ronaldo who had just scored 36 odd goals to win ManU the league. I could understand the petition and general anger if we'd sold them below market prices but we didn't, we took them for every penny.

That's the thing here - the natural order of things was maintained, a big rich club came in for a star player, we didn't want to sell so they unsettled them, we were left in a tough position but made the best of it and drove a hard bargain. We don't like it when it happens to us but in turn we went and took the star players from roma, ajax, twente etc. whether it's by taking advantage of their contract situation, our dofs knowledge of their situation or just our financial and historical clout, just as Madrid used their appeal, press and agent power. That's football and happens regardless of any special relationship.

Sure we’d like to keep our best players but as we saw with Carrick, Berbatov and Keane, it doesn’t require Madrid to be involved for us to lose them, yet with them involved we don’t have to face them in the league twice a year and we get even more money.

Thanks to selling Bale to Madrid we’ve now got two young potentially world class replacements in Eriksen and Lamela who could well become just as valuable if they reach their potential alongside some luck and good marketing, a Brazilan first team box to box player in Paulinho, a proven goalscorer in Soldado and a number of other quality squad players, without spending a penny of any potentially earmarked transfer budget.

Contrast that to if Man U were interested in the fergie era, we’d have realistically lost him for £30-£35m and replaced him with Ince and McCarthy, and got one of their youngsters on loan. I’m not even being facetious – we clearly had an agreement to delay the transfer till we’d concluded our business and while we repeatedly stated we were spending independently of Bale, to avoid being quoted excessive fees, and they agreed to it. We took them for £85m and made them shut up while we did it. They even started claiming we weren't agreeing to stuff in the press the week beforehand to further muddy the waters - stirring, or helping us to tie up Eriksen for the bargain price of 11m and lamela for 25m+add ons?

Yeah the Ozil sale is maddening but this is what Real do, they probably sell too few shirts with his name on the back so didn’t want to keep him regardless of how good he is, and **** were the only ones who could pay the fee, the wages and get the deal done quickly enough. You’d think they’d have learnt from Mackele that selling key team members because they’re not as fashionable as your new recruits will backfire but with Perez in charge common sense just doesn’t factor into it!

I have no doubt that if they were willing to sell we would have enquired but if Levy, Baldini and AVB either couldn’t make the deal work, sell the project to Ozil or decided Eriksen is a better buy for the money then sod it, they’ve done enough this transfer window to earn my trust regardless of what the gooners do; we’ve still strengthened the essential areas of our squad more than any other team aside from City, and are world class fullbacks, a motivated Ade away from being largely complete, despite, or possible because of, reals infatuation with bale.

It`s a good post, but you do miss the point somewhat. Real didn`t tell us they were negotiating for Ozil with Arsenal, and we didn`t go in for him because Real insisted he wasn`t for sale, something that changed in the final week of the window without us knowing about it. And in the Bale saga, all our summer dealings this year, every single one of them, came to light when the selling clubs involved told the press that they were negotiating and then had given us permission to speak to the player. We didn`t tap them up using tabloids shrilly screaming that they were born to play for Spurs. We didn`t wheel Ledley out into a press pack and have him flutter his eyes at Lamela and Eriksen and patronize Ajax and Roma. We didn`t ask the players to submit transfer requests or skip training and matches, we didn`t negotiate directly with their agents before even approaching their clubs, and we did not tap them up.

Contrast that with Madrid`s behaviour. And if that is what the settled order of things is, if that is what Madrid pull off with even an ostensibly `partnered`club, are we supposed to grin and let them begin the process all over again next year without a single word of protest?

Yes, we did good business. Yes, we strengthened with the Bale money. That is not down to Real Madrid, in any way, shape or form. That is down to Daniel f**king Levy, Franco Baldini and AVB. Real Madrid did not do us a favour with their Bale pursuit. They tapped him up, forced him out of the club mentally, and then (if your assertions turn out to be true) came to us and said `yes, we did tap him up, but we`re more than willing to wait while you finish your business. Just remember that he is ours, and there`s nothing you can do to change that. And just to remind you, we`ll have Marca and Zidane trumpeting it at you for the rest of the summer. Okay?` And then they go and erect a giant ****ing stage in the Bernabeu while we`re still negotiating for Eriksen and Lamela, thus disproving any notion in the selling clubs`heads that we were going to hang on to Bale.

This partnership deserves a bit more explanation to the fans than `the best commercial and footballing practices`, and that is independent of all the good work done by the club this window. If it`s marketing-related, tell us why it`s so important, without going into details. If it`s commercial partnering, tell us what benefits it provides to the club without going into details. If it`s scouting and coaching, tell us what has been done so far without going into details. There is always a way to get information out to the supporters if you want to give it out, and after losing first Modric and now Bale to Madrid, and after the odious practices employed by Madrid in this transfer window, it would be stupid not to do so and expect fans to go `ah, but we did good work this summer, and it`s the natural order of things, so meh, tough luck. Partners for life!`. And if Vertonghen goes to Madrid next summer ,after more tapping up, and this partnership still exists, there will be even more calls to do the same, with greater ferocity than this current rather poorly petition.

Selling our best players and buying quality replacements is a very sustainable and indeed possibly very advantageous route to take. On that I agree. But if it is the case, then maybe Levy should stop indicating in his chairman`s messages that we are going to hold on to our best players and build on them, as he has done in the last two or three end-of-season letters. You cannot tell the fans that you intend to keep your best guys and then sell them to a club that`s tapped them up while at the same time maintaining a partnership with the tapping-up club. That will inevitably raise eyebrows, faith in Levy be damned.
 
That's not what I have said in any way shape or form.


I don't think the fans need to know everything. They don't. There is no reason to tell them everything. The club tell us a massive amount as it is. We should be thankful for what they do share, not sit around being ****y at what they choose to keep on the down low.


Just because I think the fans should shut up about this one issue, doesn't mean I think they should shut up on every single issue. I am not quite sure where you have arrived at this conclusion.

I also don't think the fans boycotting the game would actually have a massive financial impact, the amount of money that comes into the game from other sources is huge. And anyway, if I was going to boycott the club I would choose a sensible issue on which to do it, not 'they won't tell me about this partnership, wah wah wah.'

I certainly think the fans should know more than they`re being told. Because is it stands, the only `official`news comes from the website, so all we know about this partnership is condensed into one paragraph from last year. And when it comes to not revealing transfer fees as well, a picture does begin to form of fans being fed less information that, say, in Germany, where they own the majority of the club and thus have regularly scheduled news updates and conferences on club operations and most aspects of club policy. And they don`t seem disadvantaged by it, in comparison to the `need to know`basis the Premier League seems to operate on, which hols that the fans are`nt really on a `need to know`basis so they don`t need to know.

I don`t think the fans should shut up about this. Sure, if it comes to `why didn`t we buy X and X`and a petition is started to ask that question, then I`ll stand with you in the `shut the **** up`phalanx. But asking for more information on the club`s operations, especially in shady deals like this partnership, is surely a tidbit when compared to the bigger issues like lower ticket prices and letting poor and disadvantaged fans back into the game they bloody created.

And if we can`t organize concerted action on this, a comparatively insignificant request (albeit linked to a larger issue)what hope do we have of organizing concerted action on the bigger issues?

No, we need to know more about how our club is run. Not everything. Not even the majority of knowledge. Just more than we get now, which is a trickle when compared to more open clubs in more open leagues.

And, as an aside, looking back I may have been a mite more aggressive than was necessary in a debate of this stature. So if you felt in any way disadvantaged by it, I apologize.
 
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2013/09/06/4242069/-?

Tottenham to review Real Madrid 'partnership'

The north London club are furious at the behaviour of the Spanish giants in sealing a deal for Gareth Bale, while they also allowed Mesut Ozil to join Spurs' great rivals Arsenal

EXCLUSIVE
By Greg Stobart

Tottenham are reviewing their partnership agreement with Real Madrid after being appalled by the Spanish giants’ behaviour this summer in the course of sealing the world record £86 million signing of Gareth Bale.

The two clubs announced the link-up following Luka Modric’s move to the Santiago Bernabeu in 2012, declaring it would see the clubs "working together in respect of players, coaching, best practices and commercial relationships".

But the partnership has appeared increasingly one-sided, with Madrid doggedly pursuing Bale all summer before selling Mesut Ozil to Arsenal, Tottenham’s great north London rivals, for £40m on the final day of the transfer window.

Ozil’s move to the Gunners infuriated Spurs and particularly their chairman Daniel Levy, who tried to block the deal and made no secret of his anger with the Spanish club in a statement following confirmation of Bale’s move.

“Gareth was a player we had absolutely no intention of selling,” said Levy. “Such has been the attention from Real Madrid and so great is Gareth’s desire to join them, that we have taken the view that the player will not be sufficiently committed to our campaign in the current season.”

Spurs are now reviewing the relationship and could cut all ties with Real Madrid, with sources insisting they are not a ‘feeder club’ for players to move to the Spanish capital.

"Spurs have been bullied by Real Madrid and they won't stand for it anymore," a source told Goal. "They will look at the partnership and see if it's worth it because Real have shown no respect for them."

Tottenham fans this week launched an online petition demanding an end to the partnership, stating: “Since we have agreed to form the partnership, Real Madrid C.F. have treated us and our players without respect including "tapping" up Luka Modric and Gareth Bale.

“The transfer of Mezut Ozil to our top rivals in order to recoup money spent on Gareth Bale is the ultimate duplicitous action and we deserve a fair and mutual exchange between clubs rather than being treated as a feeder club.”

The partnership is thought to have included agreements on commercial tie-ups, pre-season friendlies, options on loaning players and sharing of coaching knowledge and expertise.

Spurs also have strategic partnerships with other clubs including Brazilian side Internacional, Hong South China in Hong Kong, San Jose in the United States and South Africa's Super Sport United.


It isn't much considering it's an EXCLUSIVE from Greg Stobart, but still......
 
I imagine that Levy’s main interest in a ‘strategic partnership’ with Real has nothing to do with players, like so many believe after jumping to conclusions, and will be along the lines of learning the PR methods, business decisions, marketing techniques, sponsorship opportunities and commercial deals that mean they’re the most profitable club in the world by some distance, despite spending unbelievable amounts on playing staff.

How do you explain that to the fans? Do you want to announce to the world that you're learning marketting secrets from madrid? Do you want the press to know? Hell, do Real even want to let you tell people that?

I may be speculating but is it a coincidence that a year after we went into this deal, one of our players has had so much media exposure - he was in the middle of times square ffs – that you can’t walk past a billboard without his face on it and that he’s being talked about in the same bracket as Ronaldo and Messi despite being a clearly inferior player to those two (not a slur in itself but he’s nowhere near them, imo)? I don’t think so, as we’ve had exciting, talented and prolific players before (keane and berbatov) that got nowhere near that level of exposure. He became a Galactico while he was at our club, at the same sort of level that Beckham and Ronaldo reached and with far more marketting exposure than any of ****'s individual 'invincibles' managed; more than Gerrard Rooney etc.

Obviously Bale is a lot more marketable himself than either Keane or Berbatov were, but still, the order of magnitude between how highly they (and modric) were thought of in the press and the sponsorship deals they got, and what we’ve seen from bale in the last 8 months (and it really is the last 8 months, as of last summer to the world media he was the really fast one who scored some great goals against Inter, but 4-5 months ago he started to be seen absolutely everywhere) is quite something.

Levy wants to take spurs from being realistically the 6th biggest in the country, to the biggest, and how better to do that than by learning from a club which is by far and away the most successful at monetizing its success in the world. Sure you can argue that it’s down to write offs by princes or ludicrous tv contracts but over the last 10 years Real have also made obscene amounts by taking advantage of the images of their players and merchandising.

Yeah we’ve sold them our best two players over the past year, but its not like we gave them away cheaply; if RM weren’t in for Modric when he wanted to leave how much do people think we would have got for him given he had been desperate to go for over a year? Most people agreed they’d rather he go to Madrid than Chelsea or Man U at the time. Who would have believed that we’d get a WR fee for Bale 6 months ago? Even when he was repeatedly winning matches for us single handedly the most fanatical of spurs fans would have struggled rationalising how he was worth 4 RVP’s, 2.5 Modric’s and more than a Ronaldo who had just scored 36 odd goals to win ManU the league. I could understand the petition and general anger if we'd sold them below market prices but we didn't, we took them for every penny.

That's the thing here - the natural order of things was maintained, a big rich club came in for a star player, we didn't want to sell so they unsettled them, we were left in a tough position but made the best of it and drove a hard bargain. We don't like it when it happens to us but in turn we went and took the star players from roma, ajax, twente etc. whether it's by taking advantage of their contract situation, our dofs knowledge of their situation or just our financial and historical clout, just as Madrid used their appeal, press and agent power. That's football and happens regardless of any special relationship.

Sure we’d like to keep our best players but as we saw with Carrick, Berbatov and Keane, it doesn’t require Madrid to be involved for us to lose them, yet with them involved we don’t have to face them in the league twice a year and we get even more money.

Thanks to selling Bale to Madrid we’ve now got two young potentially world class replacements in Eriksen and Lamela who could well become just as valuable if they reach their potential alongside some luck and good marketing, a Brazilan first team box to box player in Paulinho, a proven goalscorer in Soldado and a number of other quality squad players, without spending a penny of any potentially earmarked transfer budget.

Contrast that to if Man U were interested in the fergie era, we’d have realistically lost him for £30-£35m and replaced him with Ince and McCarthy, and got one of their youngsters on loan. I’m not even being facetious – we clearly had an agreement to delay the transfer till we’d concluded our business and while we repeatedly stated we were spending independently of Bale, to avoid being quoted excessive fees, and they agreed to it. We took them for £85m and made them shut up while we did it. They even started claiming we weren't agreeing to stuff in the press the week beforehand to further muddy the waters - stirring, or helping us to tie up Eriksen for the bargain price of 11m and lamela for 25m+add ons?

Yeah the Ozil sale is maddening but this is what Real do, they probably sell too few shirts with his name on the back so didn’t want to keep him regardless of how good he is, and **** were the only ones who could pay the fee, the wages and get the deal done quickly enough. You’d think they’d have learnt from Mackele that selling key team members because they’re not as fashionable as your new recruits will backfire but with Perez in charge common sense just doesn’t factor into it!

I have no doubt that if they were willing to sell we would have enquired but if Levy, Baldini and AVB either couldn’t make the deal work, sell the project to Ozil or decided Eriksen is a better buy for the money then sod it, they’ve done enough this transfer window to earn my trust regardless of what the gooners do; we’ve still strengthened the essential areas of our squad more than any other team aside from City, and are world class fullbacks, a motivated Ade away from being largely complete, despite, or possible because of, reals infatuation with bale.

I will admit, this is a great post. And it has convinced me somewhat.

But it depends on some things, either this was all a ploy between the two clubs. Madrid get Bale, a fantastic player and break the world record fee thus putting them into the limelight. Whilst we got 2-3 months of being the club owning the player on everyones lips through all the media attention he was getting, thus making us far more marketable.

But, if we end up pulling out of this deal than that means the terms of this deal with Madrid have clearly not been fuflilled and Levy feels the partnership is a one way 'partnership' where the conidtions have been breached.

Still, I won't consider Goal.com a trustful source of information. Hell, I don't consider anywhere but offical announments trsutssowrthy. We'll wait and see. If we don't pull out, clearly we're happy with what's gone on and feel this partnership is benefital. If we pull out, clearly this deal hasn't fulfiled whatr it was supposed to.
 
Until we've received just ONE of their players either on loan or in part exchange, I fail to see what we gain. Seems very one sided.
 
I still don't think we have been bullied

Quite.
Receiving £120 million for a couple of players is not the ultimate outcome of being bullied.
We've made a very decent fist of our position, which is one of a club not yet at the top table being in possession of two players that one of the biggest & wealthiest clubs in the world wanted.
 
Until we've received just ONE of their players either on loan or in part exchange, I fail to see what we gain. Seems very one sided.

Perhaps this is the point... Just because the fans don't see something, doesn't mean it is not there or is not happening. We could be benefitting in many ways such as in gaining access to their scout reports that would undoubtedly be of far greater breadth and depth than our own, in the exchange of coaching/physio methods, and potentially friendlies in the future to gain publicity and revenue for the club.

There are probably a million other potential benefits that would go unseen to you or I. Do you honestly think Levy is that much of a mug?
 
I think us fans are a bit naive at times. We were convinced that Bale would have stayed had we got CL football when that has never stopped Arsenal losing top players despite regular CL football and Bale himself confirmed that that wouldnt have mattered. There is no partnership in world football where one club can control who another club sells a player to. As others have said, we are now reaching a point where our manager and players are of such quality that top clubs will seek them out. Are we to have this magical partnership agreement will all of these clubs not to buy our players and also not to sell to our rivals??? It doesnt make sense.

People are looking for someone or something to blame, but we already know our situation. We dont/cant pay massive wages. We are going to lose players to clubs who can. Tapping up is obviously part of the game now and we use it ourselves too and its again natural to be used against us wheter private or public No agreement will stop that.

Levy is a shrewd operator and he clearly knew this well before this deal was signed. As has been already said, I am sure the benefits of this deal would be more on improving the commercial and sponsorship side of our club so cancelling it will in no way benefit our club especially when looking to finance a new stadium.
 
I still don't think we have been bullied

I agree completely, we are not the "victim" here. We got fantastic deals for both Modric and Bale. Partnership or not, both would have been sold. The "Feeder club" tag is simply a fact of life. I think most clubs would accept club/world record amounts of money for players who want to leave.
 
Some ridiculous comments here...

Why shouldn't RM sell Ozil to the scum? He was their player and apparently that was the only team he was willing to go to - there is no way he would have come to us. And they needed the money. What did you expect them do?
 
[video=youtube;0aOEyCWTjx8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aOEyCWTjx8[/video]


Turn on closed captions if you want subtitles. Sums up Madrid effortlessly well.
 
Some ridiculous comments here...

Why shouldn't RM sell Ozil to the scum? He was their player and apparently that was the only team he was willing to go to - there is no way he would have come to us. And they needed the money. What did you expect them do?

Why shouldn't RM sell Ozil to scum? You are right, nothing to stop them. But I'm surprised Levy didn't ask for assurances that they wouldn't sell any players to scum or no you don't Bale. Mind you, knowing how one sided this partnership is they probably either told Levy to **** off or lied to us and went ahead and sold Ozil to scum as soon as they knew Bale was theirs. Levy was perfectly within his rights to withhold selling Bale until the last few hours of the window. Let's get something straight, they wanted Bale much more than we wanted to sell him.
 
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