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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

Jurgen the German said:
Whether Arsenal wanted to get rid of Arteta or not is kind of irrelevant, the fact is that they kept him and they’ve benefited from it. They could have easily sacked him after they bottled 4th and handed it to us on a plate in 2021/22 (which wasn’t during COVID btw) but they again they stuck with him. The fact is that managers know they will get more time at certain clubs like Arsenal, Liverpool and United compared to clubs like us and Chelsea. I think United and Liverpool in general have more patient fanbases than us, and more patient chairmen.
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I think that may be true up to a point.

Mostly I think it's an impression from some very successful individual managers. Wenger, Ferguson and Klopp who no team would have sacked (earlier) , if at all.

Arsenal didn't give Emery a lot of time, Liverpool didn't give Hodgson much time. Manchester United haven't been super patient with Moyes, van Gaal or even Mourinho.

The Artetas decision sticks out a bit from the norm, but it's not like that other clubs are generally that much more patient. Had Artetas done a Conte he would have been just as gone as Conte was here.

Like with us, what keeps a manager in a job over time is relative success within a somewhat realistic time frame.

There's also the difference between a club hiring more of a "project" manager and more of a "win now" manager and how that influences decisions.

I'm quite happy with most of the sackings Levy has overseen. But the time they were sacked we were pretty much in "they're not going to turn this around are they" territory.

Not worried about Ange getting sacked prematurely, though can't know for sure of course. More worried about him not finding the necessary solutions.
 
braineclipse said:
I think that may be true up to a point.

Mostly I think it's an impression from some very successful individual managers. Wenger, Ferguson and Klopp who no team would have sacked (earlier) , if at all.

Arsenal didn't give Emery a lot of time, Liverpool didn't give Hodgson much time. Manchester United haven't been super patient with Moyes, van Gaal or even Mourinho.

The Artetas decision sticks out a bit from the norm, but it's not like that other clubs are generally that much more patient. Had Artetas done a Conte he would have been just as gone as Conte was here.

Like with us, what keeps a manager in a job over time is relative success within a somewhat realistic time frame.

There's also the difference between a club hiring more of a "project" manager and more of a "win now" manager and how that influences decisions.

I'm quite happy with most of the sackings Levy has overseen. But the time they were sacked we were pretty much in "they're not going to turn this around are they" territory.

Not worried about Ange getting sacked prematurely, though can't know for sure of course. More worried about him not finding the necessary solutions.
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United have given Ten Hag time, rightly or wrongly. If he’s not the man to take them forward then you can’t say they haven’t backed him.

I don’t think Arteta would have survived at THFC with the league finishes he had early, even with an FA cup as I don’t think Levy cares about cup competitions besides the CL.
 
Jurgen the German said:
United have given Ten Hag time, rightly or wrongly. If he’s not the man to take them forward then you can’t say they haven’t backed him.

I don’t think Arteta would have survived at THFC with the league finishes he had early, even with an FA cup as I don’t think Levy cares about cup competitions besides the CL.
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Didn't the United owners look for replacements, landing on sticking with Ten Hag’s because they couldn't find anyone better that would sign for them? Not sure that counts as backing. Had Levy done the same I think there would be a lot of criticism about that.

There's not really a direct comparison with either Ten Hag or Arteta and us under Levy imo. Sure if you look just at league finishes and if the manager was fired or not, but I don't think those decisions are that simple at all.

Arteta seemed to be hired with a longer term plan in place, wasn't expected to do something very quickly. Bit like Ange and Poch imo. Poch succeeded quickly so what Levy would have done was never tested.

Ange finished 5th and was again backed in the transfer market. Again with a more long term strategy in place. Will be interesting to see what happens if he struggles this season.

Your point is that Levy won't be patient? So at what point do you think a lack of top 4 finishes will see Ange sacked? This season? Next summer? After that?
 
braineclipse said:
Didn't the United owners look for replacements, landing on sticking with Ten Hag’s because they couldn't find anyone better that would sign for them? Not sure that counts as backing. Had Levy done the same I think there would be a lot of criticism about that.

There's not really a direct comparison with either Ten Hag or Arteta and us under Levy imo. Sure if you look just at league finishes and if the manager was fired or not, but I don't think those decisions are that simple at all.

Arteta seemed to be hired with a longer term plan in place, wasn't expected to do something very quickly. Bit like Ange and Poch imo. Poch succeeded quickly so what Levy would have done was never tested.

Ange finished 5th and was again backed in the transfer market. Again with a more long term strategy in place. Will be interesting to see what happens if he struggles this season.

Your point is that Levy won't be patient? So at what point do you think a lack of top 4 finishes will see Ange sacked? This season? Next summer? After that?
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I think if we miss top 4 again this season then Ange could be on borrowed time. Even if we won a trophy I don’t think Levy would factor that in at all. I certainly don’t think he would survive missing CL 3 seasons in a row but 2 is debatable.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I think if we miss top 4 again this season then Ange could be on borrowed time. Even if we won a trophy I don’t think Levy would factor that in at all. I certainly don’t think he would survive missing CL 3 seasons in a row but 2 is debatable.
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We budget on being in Europe which believe is the minimum expectation
And last season was an improvement on the previous one putting us back in Europe so I’m assuming levy is happy with the progress
 
braineclipse said:
Didn't the United owners look for replacements, landing on sticking with Ten Hag’s because they couldn't find anyone better that would sign for them? Not sure that counts as backing. Had Levy done the same I think there would be a lot of criticism about that.

There's not really a direct comparison with either Ten Hag or Arteta and us under Levy imo. Sure if you look just at league finishes and if the manager was fired or not, but I don't think those decisions are that simple at all.

Arteta seemed to be hired with a longer term plan in place, wasn't expected to do something very quickly. Bit like Ange and Poch imo. Poch succeeded quickly so what Levy would have done was never tested.

Ange finished 5th and was again backed in the transfer market. Again with a more long term strategy in place. Will be interesting to see what happens if he struggles this season.

Your point is that Levy won't be patient? So at what point do you think a lack of top 4 finishes will see Ange sacked? This season? Next summer? After that?
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United did offer it around.

Same way Arse did a few years into Arteta with the same outcome.
 
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Jurgen the German said:
I think if we miss top 4 again this season then Ange could be on borrowed time. Even if we won a trophy I don’t think Levy would factor that in at all. I certainly don’t think he would survive missing CL 3 seasons in a row but 2 is debatable.
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Arteta first had a bit over half a season, finishing 8th. First full season finishing 8th. Second full season finishing 5th. Then 2nd. I think I got that right.

Essentially 3 years into him being there they were showing title challenging form.

If Ange "survives" missing CL two years in a row, gets to start next season even if we finish outside the top 4 this season there's not that much of a difference between the two situations imo.

Arteta too was on "borrowed time" after the second full season outside the top 4. But then got the necessary consistency to no longer be on borrowed time.

I think those decisions should be about a lot more than just that, and I think they are.
 
Roland Beurre said:
I think he has rescued them from the irrelevance they were sliding towards at the fag-end of Wenger's time.
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He has… for now
But how long will they stick with him if they aren’t winning trophies
The same people who say he has won a cup are the same ones who say his first few years were him embedding a philosophy and getting his own players, which is true. What’s the excuse gonna be if he doesn’t win a title or a European trophy now
 
Bedfordspurs said:
He has… for now
But how long will they stick with him if they aren’t winning trophies
The same people who say he has won a cup are the same ones who say his first few years were him embedding a philosophy and getting his own players, which is true. What’s the excuse gonna be if he doesn’t win a title or a European trophy now
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Dunno. If the PL is won by a financially doped club and the European Champions plus Runners-Up cup is won by a financially doped club, will they throw more money at it? They would, I expect, but probably not enough.

Arteta could complain about level playing fields but all clubs that don't have a banknote printing press in the basement are looking for that wizard of a manager who can overcome the odds.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
He has… for now
But how long will they stick with him if they aren’t winning trophies
The same people who say he has won a cup are the same ones who say his first few years were him embedding a philosophy and getting his own players, which is true. What’s the excuse gonna be if he doesn’t win a title or a European trophy now
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They don't need an excuse - they are up against two financially doped clubs, and the best two historical clubs in England and are by far the second best and extremely close to City. It's hardly the failure some people on here are making it out to be just because they have spent money. If it was us doing the same you and others would be saying how we can hold our heads high at taking City so close twice in the league, and what a great job our boss is doing but because it's the Goons of course it's a different story....
 
braineclipse said:
Arteta first had a bit over half a season, finishing 8th. First full season finishing 8th. Second full season finishing 5th. Then 2nd. I think I got that right.

Essentially 3 years into him being there they were showing title challenging form.

If Ange "survives" missing CL two years in a row, gets to start next season even if we finish outside the top 4 this season there's not that much of a difference between the two situations imo.

Arteta too was on "borrowed time" after the second full season outside the top 4. But then got the necessary consistency to no longer be on borrowed time.

I think those decisions should be about a lot more than just that, and I think they are.
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Arteta won a trophy.
 
Roland Beurre said:
Dunno. If the PL is won by a financially doped club and the European Champions plus Runners-Up cup is won by a financially doped club, will they throw more money at it? They would, I expect, but probably not enough.

Arteta could complain about level playing fields but all clubs that don't have a banknote printing press in the basement are looking for that wizard of a manager who can overcome the odds.
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So he would become the master in not winning and the club keep on backing him… I don’t see it
 
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