Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Kandi1977]

I see a fair amount of talk of challenging or even winning the PL, do people genuinely believe we are in a position to win the PL or get within 6 points of city?
Going to be a lot of disappointment and grief around if that is the case.

We're only 5 points off City

 

[Yiddo]

Let me clear one thing up because it's something I've been accused of many times. I couldn't give a brick if it was Ange, Ange's uncle or any other random manager. I don't support Ange because I picked him out early, I picked him out early because I felt he was what we needed.

THFC was a shambles of a Premier League football club in April/May/June 2023. Not even 18 months ago. An absolute fudging shambles. We went to Saudi Sportswashing Machine and got absolutely annilhated. One of the most embarrassing matches I've ever watched as a Spurs fan. Genuine emotional pain of seeing the team I love in the shape that it was in.

At that point it was very clear: the next manager had a huge fudging job on their hands. The remit was to get us playing exciting football again. To set us up for success in the future; to get back to where we were at Poch's peak. Before any of that was possible, the manager had to sort out the disaster of a football club they took over. To repair a completely broken relationship between the club and its fans.

It was obvious to me, having watched Ange's style -- take no brick, if you don't like it my way there's plenty of other football clubs out there -- that he was the perfect fit for what the club needed. Buy in, strap in and enjoy the ride. It'll be extremely bumpy at first but -- like pretty much everything in life -- if you stick with it you'll see results.

Under Conte/Stelling/Mason the stadium was dead. People were barely even angry anymore. It was completely apathetic. No one gave a brick. It was a complete chore to watch Tottenham Hotspur.

Our first home game vs Manchester United last season and the stadium was rocking. Within weeks Ange had completely reversed the entire mood around the club. From doom and gloom to "wait, can we win the league?" by October. He had no right to do it that quickly. It didn't happen by luck; there was nothing magical that came over us. Everyone saw how he handled himself publicly. That he spoke about the club as we'd like it to be spoken about. He showed us that 'he gets it.'

That he did it so quickly is I believe what is leading the current negativity. It seems to me that everyone has lost track of where this club was when he took over. Everything is about RIGHT NOW. Because he seemed to flick a switch to lift the mood so quickly, well surely he can do the same tactically as well.

I mean he did, right? The first 10 games we absolutely blew everyone away? Not quite. If you watch those first 10 games back, only Burnley (5-2) was comfortable. Man Utd and Bournemouth feel comfortable now (both 2-0) but they weren't without scares. Against Sheffield United we needed 2 injury time goals to beat a team that went down as one of the worst in Premier League history. We needed an injury time own goal to beat 9-man Liverpool. etc etc.

There's no point repeating the entire story of the season because everyone knows it. But the facts are clear: he got 5th with constant injuries to key players, two mid-season tournaments and players he doesn't particularly want/that don't suit his system. Oh and yeah we sold our best player ever the night before the season started.

He's been backed pretty well this summer. The squad looks far more like his. We were missing 3 key players last weekend yet still fielded a very strong team. We dominate just about every single team we play in just about every stat possible. Yes, the two that matter -- for and against -- too often don't reflect that, and there are repetitive issues. But the signs are there. The dominance will turn into results. It's how every other job he's had has gone. It will happen again, if we give it time. That time is at the very least this full season, but in my opinion he needs a third season before we can really judge it.

There are two very recent examples of clubs in a similar state to Spurs were:

Liverpool:
2014/15 - 8th
2015/16 - 4th (Klopp takes over in October)
2016/17 - 4th
2017/18 - 4th
2018/19 - 2nd
2019/20 - 1st

First trophy: Champions League in 2018/19.

Arsenal:
2018/19: 5th
2019/20: 8th (Arteta takes over in December)
2020/21: 8th
2021/22: 5th
2022/23: 2nd
2023/24: 2nd

First (and only trophy to date): FA Cup 2019/20

The blueprint is clear. Managers need time. How much of a backbone do Spurs fans have? How many people are willing to stick it out for a bit, riding out the rough parts? Or do you want to sack the manager and start again? Because that's clearly worked every other time.

We are the most unsuccessful team with the most entitled fan base. They won’t give Ange time, it will only take 2 or 3 more losses and the booing will happen. We will then change our manager and they will all do the same again and then complain we don’t give our managers enough time.

 

[Yiddo]

As a lot of poster know, i am not one to hold back in expressing my opinion on this forum even if it goes against the majority. I am also known for being negative about certain things but the way things are at the moment is different for me. I feel something special could happen with Ange at the helm and i hope he is given the time he needs. I believe he needs at least another season before being under pressure. I think Levy needs to be brave and ignore the negativity after a bad run and do what Arsenal did with Arteta. It was only 3/4 seasons ago that the Arsenal fans were in a meltdown wanting Arteta sacked now look at them. We are competing in competitions where there are 4 or 5 bigger and better teams than us and that not including the champions league when we are in it. If you look at the last 10 F.A cup winners, they are all bigger clubs than us other than Leicester. If you look at the last 10 Premier league winners, again apart from Leicester they are all bigger clubs than us. Even the league cup is dominated by teams winning it that are bigger than us. We have no real right to be challenging for top 4 if you look at the resources the other teams competing with us have, we have no right to be expecting to win cups if you look at the teams that dominate it and their resources. We have been punching above our weight for years and now we are seeing child like reactions when we don’t win anything. These teams took years to get to where they got to and a lot of them have had very good backing and a bit of luck to go with it. We are still no where near City, Liverpool and Arsenal in terms of on the pitch displays but we are not too far from it. Klopp needed time to get Liverpool challenging, Arteta needed time to get Arsenal challenging and Ange needs the same, lets stop feeling entitled and assuming we should be winning things and lets enjoy the ride. We have won fudge all for 15 years so a few more isn’t going to hurt. Lets get behind big Ange and the lads and view it for what it is, a rebuilding process.

Yes i will probably have a moan in match threads and call out some players but thats part and parcel of it but i will back Ange all of the way.

 

[Gazza]

Wait a minute I don’t think anyone here including me is saying you sack Aussie.

However people say that we are on the way up is just not true, for the best part of 25 games we have not got the results. Saying that we performed well and out played the likes of Leicester or Saudi Sportswashing Machine is all fine and good but we got done yet again by a simple tactic… which by the way is not the first time. And perhaps teams know that we will dither huff and puff in attack and get us time and time again on the counter.

I expect a premier league manager to find solutions, and so far I fear that Aussie has only one way of playing … which currently translates to all fart and no poo.

Comparing us to situations like Liverpool and Arsenal cannot be made due to the amounts of money and calibre of players brought.

Of course I’m excited about some players for the future but that is a bigger gamble than on tried and tested players that have proven some sort of form.

Personally would love our football to work and our domination of play to result in wins … but we have a very average front line currently and look forward to see what Solanke has to offer when back, or an inform Richy…

I hope that it all clicks and there is not yet another false dawn, but that all depends on Aussie being able to adjust and tweak his style and address the flaws in his system currently. Ultimately we all want success for spurs, I am just concerned with the form of the certain things not being addressed. Simple

 

[parklane1]

We can not keep changing managers every couple of years if we do it will be just the same as it has been, a couple of bad results and the crys start again. [ he is not the man] [he has no idea] [ he needs to change the way we play] i could go on but its simple really we need to give him time to obtain the players we need and get them ALL playing as a team.

At the moment we have some really good plays on the pitch but we also have a few problems as a unit. Only time will sort it out and the new players need the time to adjust to the system. i do shake my head at the fans who think he has had the time and we still look rubbish and they tend to overlook that we have a lot of new,young players who are still trying to adapt to the plan Ange has set out for them. We murdered Leicester in the first half and should have been at least a few goals up ,and we were far the better team against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and we deserved all 6 points from those games.

To be honest i never thought the start we had last season was likely to last because we are a NEW TEAM with lots of NEW PLAYERS that were always going to have poor spells as we adapted to what the manager wanted from them. Since then we have added more new players and again we are learning as a team. I know they will be fans who will think we should be doing better and i can agree with some of that but it will take time and i really really hope that we give him that before we close the door on yet another manager.

 

[Mikey10]

We can not keep changing managers every couple of years if we do it will be just the same as it has been, a couple of bad results and the crys start again. [ he is not the man] [he has no idea] [ he needs to change the way we play] i could go on but its simple really we need to give him time to obtain the players we need and get them ALL playing as a team.

At the moment we have some really good plays on the pitch but we also have a few problems as a unit. Only time will sort it out and the new players need the time to adjust to the system. i do shake my head at the fans who think he has had the time and we still look rubbish and they tend to overlook that we have a lot of new,young players who are still trying to adapt to the plan Ange has set out for them. We murdered Leicester in the first half and should have been at least a few goals up ,and we were far the better team against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and we deserved all 6 points from those games.

To be honest i never thought the start we had last season was likely to last because we are a NEW TEAM with lots of NEW PLAYERS that were always going to have poor spells as we adapted to what the manager wanted from them. Since then we have added more new players and again we are learning as a team. I know they will be fans who will think we should be doing better and i can agree with some of that but it will take time and i really really hope that we give him that before we close the door on yet another manager.

I’ve got quite a few concerns about how he gets us to go about things, but absolutely agree - unless it gets seriously bad, he’s got to be given time.

 

[metalgear]

It's not great but there are positive signs. It does need a few tweaks and maybe some personnel changes at the back.
I'd still give him the chance to make those changes. He should have at least till the end of the season.

Agree about the end of this season.
He needs to show that he can get the most of his players, even if it means sacrificing angeball ideals.

But if he can't see and learn from the weaknesses in our play....the other coaches will. Arsenal will be an early good test for him. A clean sheet would be as good as a victory .

 

[metalgear]

Everyone thought the same about us under Poch

Pochball is exciting and has been proven to do well with lower lesser teams, but hestruggles to win things in top flight football. Ange could prove the same.

Winning coaches create teams that control games. I'll believe in Angeball winning stuff when I see Spurs in control of games till the final whistle. Not just outscoring, but comfortably and psychologically winning till the end of the game.

In hindsight, once the opposition figured out how to deal with Angeball, Ange hasn't been able to respond in a convincing manner. Probably got worse as teams became less afraid of our ability to score (we usually give their defence time to reorganise) and probed more e.g. manhandling vicario and free man at the far post.

 

[metalgear]

I think Arteta is a very interesting case. I roared laughing when they appointed him. For 2-3 seasons, I couldn't see them becoming a team at all. It was very, very mediocre and wasn't even a good watch if you're misfortunate enough to support them. He was probably lucky that stadiums were empty in that time because there was a lot of fan sentiment against him. There was one Covid game where Villa dingdonged them 3-0 at their place and I was 100% certain Arteta was done.

He's turned them into a hell of a team (fudge I need a shower after saying that). That's why I can't get bogged down in my opinion on Ange's tactics. I've got to look at what I think is success (top 6) and allow him a little leeway on top of that. If he reaches those levels or gets close, he should stay.

Not every manager will do what Arteta has done, of course, but I couldn't have been more wrong about him.

Arteta showed clear on pitch improvements year on year. Tactics and pace changed to make their players look better. It's always a fine balance between system discipline and player individuality but the process was clear and most of their players seems to get better. Also with every sub no drop in quality. He has less experience but already an excellent manager.

The same is happening is Maresca and Chelsea. They've pushed on from poch's hectic style and look organised and purposeful with the ball the entire game.

As a minimum Ange should keep us in Europe. Otherwise he should go. My guess this is also Levy's thinking. The extra revenue is critical, if we continue to he in Europe, one day we will win something it just takes time.

 

[braineclipse]

Let me clear one thing up because it's something I've been accused of many times. I couldn't give a brick if it was Ange, Ange's uncle or any other random manager. I don't support Ange because I picked him out early, I picked him out early because I felt he was what we needed.

THFC was a shambles of a Premier League football club in April/May/June 2023. Not even 18 months ago. An absolute fudging shambles. We went to Saudi Sportswashing Machine and got absolutely annilhated. One of the most embarrassing matches I've ever watched as a Spurs fan. Genuine emotional pain of seeing the team I love in the shape that it was in.

At that point it was very clear: the next manager had a huge fudging job on their hands. The remit was to get us playing exciting football again. To set us up for success in the future; to get back to where we were at Poch's peak. Before any of that was possible, the manager had to sort out the disaster of a football club they took over. To repair a completely broken relationship between the club and its fans.

It was obvious to me, having watched Ange's style -- take no brick, if you don't like it my way there's plenty of other football clubs out there -- that he was the perfect fit for what the club needed. Buy in, strap in and enjoy the ride. It'll be extremely bumpy at first but -- like pretty much everything in life -- if you stick with it you'll see results.

Under Conte/Stelling/Mason the stadium was dead. People were barely even angry anymore. It was completely apathetic. No one gave a brick. It was a complete chore to watch Tottenham Hotspur.

Our first home game vs Manchester United last season and the stadium was rocking. Within weeks Ange had completely reversed the entire mood around the club. From doom and gloom to "wait, can we win the league?" by October. He had no right to do it that quickly. It didn't happen by luck; there was nothing magical that came over us. Everyone saw how he handled himself publicly. That he spoke about the club as we'd like it to be spoken about. He showed us that 'he gets it.'

That he did it so quickly is I believe what is leading the current negativity. It seems to me that everyone has lost track of where this club was when he took over. Everything is about RIGHT NOW. Because he seemed to flick a switch to lift the mood so quickly, well surely he can do the same tactically as well.

I mean he did, right? The first 10 games we absolutely blew everyone away? Not quite. If you watch those first 10 games back, only Burnley (5-2) was comfortable. Man Utd and Bournemouth feel comfortable now (both 2-0) but they weren't without scares. Against Sheffield United we needed 2 injury time goals to beat a team that went down as one of the worst in Premier League history. We needed an injury time own goal to beat 9-man Liverpool. etc etc.

There's no point repeating the entire story of the season because everyone knows it. But the facts are clear: he got 5th with constant injuries to key players, two mid-season tournaments and players he doesn't particularly want/that don't suit his system. Oh and yeah we sold our best player ever the night before the season started.

He's been backed pretty well this summer. The squad looks far more like his. We were missing 3 key players last weekend yet still fielded a very strong team. We dominate just about every single team we play in just about every stat possible. Yes, the two that matter -- for and against -- too often don't reflect that, and there are repetitive issues. But the signs are there. The dominance will turn into results. It's how every other job he's had has gone. It will happen again, if we give it time. That time is at the very least this full season, but in my opinion he needs a third season before we can really judge it.

There are two very recent examples of clubs in a similar state to Spurs were:

Liverpool:
2014/15 - 8th
2015/16 - 4th (Klopp takes over in October)
2016/17 - 4th
2017/18 - 4th
2018/19 - 2nd
2019/20 - 1st

First trophy: Champions League in 2018/19.

Arsenal:
2018/19: 5th
2019/20: 8th (Arteta takes over in December)
2020/21: 8th
2021/22: 5th
2022/23: 2nd
2023/24: 2nd

First (and only trophy to date): FA Cup 2019/20

The blueprint is clear. Managers need time. How much of a backbone do Spurs fans have? How many people are willing to stick it out for a bit, riding out the rough parts? Or do you want to sack the manager and start again? Because that's clearly worked every other time.

Could you just copy paste that every 10 pages or so? Great post.

 

[Muttley]

As a lot of poster know, i am not one to hold back in expressing my opinion on this forum even if it goes against the majority. I am also known for being negative about certain things but the way things are at the moment is different for me.

My response to this is "negative" is just an opinion. One person's negative is another person's positive.

Fans were called negative when they questioned Jose and Conte over their purchases, team selections and tactics in the early days. Then as we went through their tenures the masses turned to "Jose out" or "Conte out". It's funny that it wasn't called negative then though.

So if I read at the start of season 2 that a fan wants Ange out, I don't perceive it as negative at all. I just see a genuine Spurs fan not thinking that the path to trophies is through this guy. It's about the love of the club, nothing else.

It's the same with questioning a manager's tactics. That is a fans right, especially on a forum. Even in the first 10 games of lasts season, some fans were expressing concerns about the frailty of the defensive setup and were saying that we were riding our luck. I was on another forum, and we were all labelled as "negative" as if we had no right to dare question Super Ange. Then the reality hit and we re-levelled as a team. Then the negative narrative went away as more fans questioned the tactics. The worst part is that because you want the manager to evolve his tactics, you are labelled as "Ange Out" even though that is the last thing you want.

In some ways the perceived "negative" posters are the ones we learn the most from. We should never try to surpress them. Obviously, a little different from wind up merchants or trolls. They come at it from a completely different angle.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Pochball is exciting and has been proven to do well with lower lesser teams, but hestruggles to win things in top flight football. Ange could prove the same.

Winning coaches create teams that control games. I'll believe in Angeball winning stuff when I see Spurs in control of games till the final whistle. Not just outscoring, but comfortably and psychologically winning till the end of the game.

In hindsight, once the opposition figured out how to deal with Angeball, Ange hasn't been able to respond in a convincing manner. Probably got worse as teams became less afraid of our ability to score (we usually give their defence time to reorganise) and probed more e.g. manhandling vicario and free man at the far post.

You was talking about Arsenal winning things
I just highlighted that everyone said the same about us in a very similar set of Circumstances

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The high line

 

[braineclipse]

That's a really well articulated and well argued post. Fair play. And I agree with much of it. The change Ange has brought to our club, in terms of style of play and connection with the fans is incredible. He certainly deserves this season and I'd argue, as long as he doesn't finish below 8th or 10th, deserves next season too.

Here's the but. We concede too many goals. We're scoring 2 a game on average. City score 2.5. We aren't, and never will be, City. We conceded almost a goal a game more than Woolwich last season. Even Klopp as his craziest without VVD and Alisson conceded about 15%-20% less goals than us. Arteta at his worst (finishing 8th for two seasons) conceded far fewer goals than us. And a lot of the same issues that we saw last season are evident this season. It's the same regardless of who plays at the back. I'm seeing a lot of analysis and comment focusing on "taking our chances" but our biggest issue is not up front.

Until we stop conceding at this rate, Ange will do very, very well even to get top 4. However, he definitely should have the chance to try. And if we're the team who plays like we do and finishes 4th-7th, is that really a disaster?

I don't think your "but" is a "but" to Tommy's post.

At this point, from the starting point Tommy summarised so well, why should we expect that there aren't repeat issues that lead to dropped points and disappointing results?

It's not the same repeat issues that Klopp had, or that Artetas had. But the presence of those repeated issues at this point should imo be the expectation.

It's up to Ange, the coaches, the players and perhaps also the transfer team to find solutions to that. But that takes time.

 

[braineclipse]

Arteta showed clear on pitch improvements year on year. Tactics and pace changed to make their players look better. It's always a fine balance between system discipline and player individuality but the process was clear and most of their players seems to get better. Also with every sub no drop in quality. He has less experience but already an excellent manager.

The same is happening is Maresca and Chelsea. They've pushed on from poch's hectic style and look organised and purposeful with the ball the entire game.

As a minimum Ange should keep us in Europe. Otherwise he should go. My guess this is also Levy's thinking. The extra revenue is critical, if we continue to he in Europe, one day we will win something it just takes time.

Improvement year on year seems like a decent benchmark.

We were much better last season than we were the season before. Let's see how far we can get this season.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Arteta showed clear on pitch improvements year on year. Tactics and pace changed to make their players look better. It's always a fine balance between system discipline and player individuality but the process was clear and most of their players seems to get better. Also with every sub no drop in quality. He has less experience but already an excellent manager.

The same is happening is Maresca and Chelsea. They've pushed on from poch's hectic style and look organised and purposeful with the ball the entire game.

As a minimum Ange should keep us in Europe. Otherwise he should go. My guess this is also Levy's thinking. The extra revenue is critical, if we continue to he in Europe, one day we will win something it just takes time.

Did Arteta show clear improvement?
I mean their fans wanted him gone second season, they finished 8th and out of Europe. They actually went backwards by standing still. And that was despite ah big an outstanding start

What he has had the benefit of is time
Same thing Klopp got

 

[fernadez]

Think it's a bit rich to have a go at a non existant group of people who are calling for the manager to be sacked.

People, including myself have pointed out that his tactic on the evidence of a over a season has major vunerabilites. Outscoring the opposition is as polar as conceding less than the opposition, but jumping on Conte and Jose was deemed ok, even though I would argue at this stage of both of thier managerial tenures we were more solid at the back and creating more (yes we had Kane but we as a team created more goal scoring chances). Both of those two only went more defensive when they realised their teams were incapable of seeing out wins, up until that West Ham game at home with Jose we were great to watch.

Personally I don't see how, regardless of who we sign or how long he's in charge how they system as it's played will not give up high percentage chances. Watching City they give up exactly the same chances in the same way we do. They difference is the calibre of players they have, to tackle, save, score, control and respond to it. Unless we're taken over, we'll never have the same level of players.

I'm of the opinion that we can keep exactly the same philosophy, make minor adjustments and be a much better functioning unit because of it. Drop the line 10 yards, have on 1 full back push up, play Maddison/someone else higher up the pitch/have Romero move the ball quicker etc. When the manager comes out and repeatedly says nothing will change, this is the way, it's natural to have concerns because we want him to succeed. Seeing us control games between the penalty boxes but fail to work keepers but also give up 1v1's for an extended period of time should be worrying to everyone, because where is the evolution? How do we know managers are saying, just stay in shape lads, we'll break down attacks and hit them quick, plus they're prone to switching off so chances will comes.

Against Saudi Sportswashing Machine I saw tangible evidence that we've worked on attacking set pecies. We didn't score from every corner, but there was enough to be reassured that, ok we're evolving. If he's determined to play the high line for example, I don't think it's unreasonable to look and say, ok VDV is out and he's a big part of the system, let's protect the lads and drop the line 10 so Vic can sweep easier. Cuti wonders sometimes lads so this will also give us a bit of protection from that.

In the south where I sit, there has been nothing but support for Ange, not murmors of discontent, nothing. Just dissapointment when we struggle to get over the line. Nobody wants to start the manager merry go round again. The concerns voiced are from people backing the manager who want him to stay and think that maybe he's not giving himself the best chance of that happening.

 

[braineclipse]

Think it's a bit rich to have a go at a non existant group of people who are calling for the manager to be sacked.

People, including myself have pointed out that his tactic on the evidence of a over a season has major vunerabilites. Outscoring the opposition is as polar as conceding less than the opposition, but jumping on Conte and Jose was deemed ok, even though I would argue at this stage of both of thier managerial tenures we were more solid at the back and creating more (yes we had Kane but we as a team created more goal scoring chances). Both of those two only went more defensive when they realised their teams were incapable of seeing out wins, up until that West Ham game at home with Jose we were great to watch.

Personally I don't see how, regardless of who we sign or how long he's in charge how they system as it's played will not give up high percentage chances. Watching City they give up exactly the same chances in the same way we do. They difference is the calibre of players they have, to tackle, save, score, control and respond to it. Unless we're taken over, we'll never have the same level of players.

I'm of the opinion that we can keep exactly the same philosophy, make minor adjustments and be a much better functioning unit because of it. Drop the line 10 yards, have on 1 full back push up, play Maddison/someone else higher up the pitch/have Romero move the ball quicker etc. When the manager comes out and repeatedly says nothing will change, this is the way, it's natural to have concerns because we want him to succeed. Seeing us control games between the penalty boxes but fail to work keepers but also give up 1v1's for an extended period of time should be worrying to everyone, because where is the evolution? How do we know managers are saying, just stay in shape lads, we'll break down attacks and hit them quick, plus they're prone to switching off so chances will comes.

Against Saudi Sportswashing Machine I saw tangible evidence that we've worked on attacking set pecies. We didn't score from every corner, but there was enough to be reassured that, ok we're evolving. If he's determined to play the high line for example, I don't think it's unreasonable to look and say, ok VDV is out and he's a big part of the system, let's protect the lads and drop the line 10 so Vic can sweep easier. Cuti wonders sometimes lads so this will also give us a bit of protection from that.

In the south where I sit, there has been nothing but support for Ange, not murmors of discontent, nothing. Just dissapointment when we struggle to get over the line. Nobody wants to start the manager merry go round again. The concerns voiced are from people backing the manager who want him to stay and think that maybe he's not giving himself the best chance of that happening.

There have been opinions elsewhere about wanting him out. At you say, not much or any of that on here.

It's of course fair to be critical.

IIRC our goals against last season with our first choice back four vs without that was quite different. That may not tell the full story of course, but fair to say that it's not always been as much of a problem. I would say it's something that can be worked on without really changing the system much.

 

[DeanoAustin]

There have been opinions elsewhere about wanting him out. At you say, not much or any of that on here.

It's of course fair to be critical.

IIRC our goals against last season with our first choice back four vs without that was quite different. That may not tell the full story of course, but fair to say that it's not always been as much of a problem. I would say it's something that can be worked on without really changing the system much.

Played 17, Conceded 23.

I know perhaps you could accuse me of spinning a narrative with the following but that includes the fast start. After that it was Played 9, Conceded 17 (including the 1-4 v Chelsea to be fair which was exceptional but that's still played 8, conceded 13). Small sample size but that 13 game average is quite a bit worse than Klopp's very first season (with no pre-season and finishing 8th) where he didn't have VVD, Alisson or Robertson. It's too many goals to concede.

With one or more of the first choice defence missing - it was played 21, conceded 38. There's not a massive difference after the fast start last season.

This isn't personnel related in my view.

@fernandez - if we drop 10 yards, it impacts our ability to pressure teams. You could see our high line on Sunday kept the ball coming back to Saudi Sportswashing Machine very early and pinned them in. That's hard to deal with as a defender.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do what you suggest but there is a consequence to it.

 

[DubSpur]

Played 17, Conceded 23.

I know perhaps you could accuse me of spinning a narrative with the following but that includes the fast start. After that it was Played 9, Conceded 17 (including the 1-4 v Chelsea to be fair which was exceptional but that's still played 8, conceded 13).

With one or more of the first choice defence missing - it was played 21, conceded 38. There's not a massive difference after the fast start last season.

This isn't personnel related in my view.

@fernandez - if we drop 10 yards, it impacts our ability to pressure teams. You could see our high line on Sunday kept the ball coming back to Saudi Sportswashing Machine very early and pinned them in. That's hard to deal with as a defender.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do what you suggest but there is a consequence to it.

I think it's partly personnel related. We have a tendency to switch off that costs us and that is nothing to do with the setup.
Players that can concentrate for the full game are needed and would improve things.