Timo Werner

[Bishop]

Disagree on the principle that the high quality attribute should usually be finishing.

I agree that those players will usually lack one or two attributes to be a really top player. Or lack on overall quality, but have some standout attributes.

What those attributes should be depends on the role they play in the team.

Obviously better finishing is better in any role apart from goalkeeper. But I don't think they key attributes for our wide players to have to fit the system is finishing. One vs one ability, speed, link up play, creativity and crossing/end product passing are the key attributes for our wide players imo.

Finishing for me is more the "bonus", something I would hope a newly signed starting wide player would have to be good enough overall to be a starter.

A great finisher, poor/average at the rest kind of player for that role would be a poor fit to the role and system. Not a useful squad player. Werner has shown the second half of this season exactly why he's a good fit to the system.

I also think his poor finishing gets somewhat overstated.

The thing for me is I don't think he's particularly good at the other things either. People saying he's good at beating his man but I don't really think he is. Unless a ball is played I to space for him to run on to he rarely actually attacks the FB, he tends to play it safe and pass it on rather than directly running at his man. You probably won't agree but even if you look at his season highlights you'll notice the pattern, played into space he's dangerous and will use his pace and directness but up against a set defender he rarely takes them on.

It is what is, we've signed him for another season so maybe he'll be more confident and take his man on more or even better we get a quicker switcher of the ball deep who is able to make those fast isolating passes for Wener to run on to.

 

[braineclipse]

The thing for me is I don't think he's particularly good at the other things either. People saying he's good at beating his man but I don't really think he is. Unless a ball is played I to space for him to run on to he rarely actually attacks the FB, he tends to play it safe and pass it on rather than directly running at his man. You probably won't agree but even if you look at his season highlights you'll notice the pattern, played into space he's dangerous and will use his pace and directness but up against a set defender he rarely takes them on.

It is what is, we've signed him for another season so maybe he'll be more confident and take his man on more or even better we get a quicker switcher of the ball deep who is able to make those fast isolating passes for Wener to run on to.

Definitely seeing that differently. What highlights have you seen that makes that pattern apparent?

For me the pattern of him being squared up to a defender, knocking the ball past him and getting a cross/pass in with a good frequency seems pretty clear.

Guess it depends on who we compare him to also? If we're comparing him to a Doku style dribbler I guess I would agree.

 

[Bishop]

Definitely seeing that differently. What highlights have you seen that makes that pattern apparent?

For me the pattern of him being squared up to a defender, knocking the ball past him and getting a cross/pass in with a good frequency seems pretty clear.

Guess it depends on who we compare him to also? If we're comparing him to a Doku style dribbler I guess I would agree.

No highlights in particular, it's just something noticed while watching him play for us I think I just want him to take his opponent on more than he does. There's a degree of smart play from him where he won't take a player on unless he's fairly certain he will beat them and thus not losing possesion of the ball but I just want more risk taking from him I suppose. I guess I believe in the chaos attack theory. The more you go at the opposition the more likely they are to break and make a mistake.

I know I come across as really anti Werner and I'm not really, I think he's a good player in reality and decent squad depth. I'm just really concerned that we are settling for what we think is good enough and that's just the antithesis of what I'm hoping we do going forward.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No highlights in particular, it's just something noticed while watching him play for us I think I just want him to take his opponent on more than he does. There's a degree of smart play from him where he won't take a player on unless he's fairly certain he will beat them and thus not losing possesion of the ball but I just want more risk taking from him I suppose. I guess I believe in the chaos attack theory. The more you go at the opposition the more likely they are to break and make a mistake.

I know I come across as really anti Werner and I'm not really, I think he's a good player in reality and decent squad depth. I'm just really concerned that we are settling for what we think is good enough and that's just the antithesis of what I'm hoping we do going forward.

I think we’re planning for the future, now
Son and Werner play left with Moore to come through
That’s a smart plan

 

[braineclipse]

No highlights in particular, it's just something noticed while watching him play for us I think I just want him to take his opponent on more than he does. There's a degree of smart play from him where he won't take a player on unless he's fairly certain he will beat them and thus not losing possesion of the ball but I just want more risk taking from him I suppose. I guess I believe in the chaos attack theory. The more you go at the opposition the more likely they are to break and make a mistake.

I know I come across as really anti Werner and I'm not really, I think he's a good player in reality and decent squad depth. I'm just really concerned that we are settling for what we think is good enough and that's just the antithesis of what I'm hoping we do going forward.

I think his decision making in those situations is quite good.

Speaking of patterns. I don't see a pattern of us settling for good enough in recent years. Much more a pattern of fans accusing the club of settling and players proving those fans wrong on those accusations.

In our current strongest 11 who is our longest serving players outside of Son? I think it's Romero? We've essentially rebuilt the starting 11 in 3 years and it's pretty good. We haven't done that by having a pattern of settling for good enough.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Depends what you mean by approach play stats. I think approach play is too complex to be boiled down to a stat or two.

He has really good stats on carries, progressive carries, passes and crosses into the box, assists, expected assists. Passing stats are fine, but doesn't tell us much. Dribbling stats aren't that impressive, but I think that's because he often doesn't dribble past players, just gets beyond them and puts a ball in. Dribbling stats are finicky.

From what we've seen he's a real threat one vs one out wide. Good at running in behind. Link up/combination play is fine, but not spectacular. Not great at holding up the ball/retaining possession under pressure, but definitely OK at it.

Finishing is the one big issue that essentially means he's not a top player. I think he's alright at it. I doubt we'll see real improvements there, but may see streaks of better goalscoring. A bonus point is that he's actually quite good at getting into goalscoring opportunities so that somewhat offsets his finishing.

We are capable of creating chances that are more about being in the right spot for the finisher than about being a great finisher so that could potentially help him next season.

His xG stats are interesting. "Only" around 10 goals down on his xG across his career (league games I think). But some relatively big swings, from +6, +5 both at RB, - 6 and - 7 at RB and one of his Chelsea seasons.

Haven't seen anyone analysing that, but my gut feeling is that he's better with instinct finishes and worse when he has time to think.

You've pretty much said the same thing. Approach play good, finishing needs to improve. But as you can see from his time at RB, he can finish above expected goals. It is in his head. Technically he's better than his return. He loses his shi1 infront of goal. You can see it real time. Can he find his happy place, and place his shots accurately? It is unlikley, but possible. But if he can, then he's an international-level player, and a bargain. I think he's easily capable of 15 goals a season (and plenty of assists, which tend to have far more cool accuracy than his shots). He needs to settle and get the scoring monkey off his back by placing the ball into the back of the net.

 

[Bishop]

I think his decision making in those situations is quite good.

Speaking of patterns. I don't see a pattern of us settling for good enough in recent years. Much more a pattern of fans accusing the club of settling and players proving those fans wrong on those accusations.

In our current strongest 11 who is our longest serving players outside of Son? I think it's Romero? We've essentially rebuilt the starting 11 in 3 years and it's pretty good. We haven't done that by having a pattern of settling for good enough.

Werner would be the first in recent years for me, but if he's genuinely squad depth then I have no complaints as that is the level player I would like as a squad option. I'm just more leaning towards actually replacing Son and Werner isn't that. Maybe like Bedford thinks. Mikey Moore is a serious long term plan for the role so again I'd be happy if that's the plan. I just don't want to see Werner starting the majority of games as I think he will frustrate. Shorter bursts suits him better.

 

[braineclipse]

You've pretty much said the same thing. Approach play good, finishing needs to improve. But as you can see from his time at RB, he can finish above expected goals. It is in his head. Technically he's better than his return. He loses his shi1 infront of goal. You can see it real time. Can he find his happy place, and place his shots accurately? It is unlikley, but possible. But if he can, then he's an international-level player, and a bargain. I think he's easily capable of 15 goals a season (and plenty of assists, which tend to have far more cool accuracy than his shots). He needs to settle and get the scoring monkey off his back by placing the ball into the back of the net.

Oh yeah, wasn't disagreeing at all. Was just trying to answer your point on stats.

Would be great if he could find consistency with his finishing. I'm not going to hold my breath for that one, but stranger things have happened.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Werner would be the first in recent years for me, but if he's genuinely squad depth then I have no complaints as that is the level player I would like as a squad option. I'm just more leaning towards actually replacing Son and Werner isn't that. Maybe like Bedford thinks. Mikey Moore is a serious long term plan for the role so again I'd be happy if that's the plan. I just don't want to see Werner starting the majority of games as I think he will frustrate. Shorter bursts suits him better.

If all depends if we sign a 9
If Ange thinks persevering with son as a real option there than we will do well to make top 6
If we sign a 9 and that role is the new guys and richarlison with son playing left alternating with Werner that’s a real upside

 

[braineclipse]

If all depends if we sign a 9
If Ange thinks persevering with son as a real option there than we will do well to make top 6
If we sign a 9 and that role is the new guys and richarlison with son playing left alternating with Werner that’s a real upside

I'll be shocked, baffled and confused if we don't sign at least one more player for the front three.

 

[harr1984]

Werner would be the first in recent years for me, but if he's genuinely squad depth then I have no complaints as that is the level player I would like as a squad option. I'm just more leaning towards actually replacing Son and Werner isn't that. Maybe like Bedford thinks. Mikey Moore is a serious long term plan for the role so again I'd be happy if that's the plan. I just don't want to see Werner starting the majority of games as I think he will frustrate. Shorter bursts suits him better.

We can all debate how good Werner is, but what I think can't be argued is that we just have to wait and see what the rest of the transfer window brings before coming to any real conclusions. The thing that goes against this signing is that it has been done so early, which to some in isolation will feel a little underwhelming. But had we already signed a top forward and then announced Werner it would be viewed by the majority as a good solid signing who will make a positive contribution to the squad.

So rather obviously it is a case of wait and see, but he certainly looked a player who works in Anges system and I'd argue the forward player most likely to create something for us so for me its a welcome addition regardless.....

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We can all debate how good Werner is, but what I think can't be argued is that we just have to wait and see what the rest of the transfer window brings before coming to any real conclusions. The thing that goes against this signing is that it has been done so early, which to some in isolation will feel a little underwhelming. But had we already signed a top forward and then announced Werner it would be viewed by the majority as a good solid signing who will make a positive contribution to the squad.

So rather obviously it is a case of wait and see, but he certainly looked a player who works in Anges system and I'd argue the forward player most likely to create something for us so for me its a welcome addition regardless.....

We actually have confirmed 2 new signings with Bergvall
That’s pretty damn decent before the CL is even played
We need 4 more I’d guess ideally or more…

 

[Pandy]

From what little I've seen of Moore I'd be surprised if his long term position was left wing (in this system). He seems to want to come inside on his right rather than drive to the byline like Johnson/Werner.

Then again I'd also be surprised if he played any significant role in the first team next season.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

From what little I've seen of Moore I'd be surprised if his long term position was left wing (in this system). He seems to want to come inside on his right rather than drive to the byline like Johnson/Werner.

Then again I'd also be surprised if he played any significant role in the first team next season.

He wouldn’t be playing it this way for sure
But Ange won’t be here long term anyway

 

[parklane1]

If all depends if we sign a 9
If Ange thinks persevering with son as a real option there than we will do well to make top 6
If we sign a 9 and that role is the new guys and richarlison with son playing left alternating with Werner that’s a real upside

A CF and a DM are the biggest needs [imo] once we get them the side will be a lot stronger, Werner is fine to keep and despite what some fans think he has done a good job so far.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Completely agree with Murphy and Jordan. Balanced views IMO, said we’ve signed some really good players (Udogie, VDV, Romero) but Werner is signed as a squad player according to both and won’t take us to the next level.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I wonder if they had that thought when signed Mari and Willian in Artetas second window

Sorry don’t get what you mean mate?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Sorry don’t get what you mean mate?

You were talking about us closing the gap
In winder if they felt the stake when in the equivalent window under Arteta they signed players like Mari, Willian and Soares
Or did they trust the decisions…

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Completely agree with Murphy and Jordan. Balanced views IMO, said we’ve signed some really good players (Udogie, VDV, Romero) but Werner is signed as a squad player according to both and won’t take us to the next level.

Squad players dont take you to the next level … starters do
Squad players allow you to build on what you have by not going backwards
The issue was in the seasons we didn’t buy we didn’t change anything … these signings change things by becoming fresh eyes and ears
But they still have to perform when necessary

It’s why Milner was so key for that pool team

Oscar Bobb was for city

Trossard made Martinelli a squad player

 

[Jurgen the German]

Players who perform those role for title winners and title challengers tend to be players who lack in overall quality but have a high quality attribute (usually finishing) that can be very useful in key stages of the season.

Ttossard is a great example of that, he's no great creative wide man. He's not a great key passer, but hes a very good finisher, arguably the best finisher at Arsenal. So he gets goals, that's what he adds in those key moments. If you think back to these kind of players that what they typically add. We'll see with Werner but that's not an attribute he's good at.

Not a like for like but Javier ‘Chicarito’ Hernandez at Man U comes to mind. Not a great footballer but a brilliant finisher and a vital player for them at times.