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Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

Do you want Tim Sherwood to stay as manager?


  • Total voters
    125
  • Poll closed .
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If things were the other way round and Ade gets on with AVB, scores goals for him until AVB was sacked and then supposedly undermines TS, you know fine rightly that you would be criticising TS for freezing him out.

I really wouldn't. My dislike for Ade's greed/laziness/mental weakness far outstrips my dislike of Timmeh's unfounded arrogance.

You normally let your blind hatred for TS blind you, but in this case you're letting your love for AVB blind you.

There's really no love for AVB from me, I just understand what he was trying to do. What he was trying would likely have got us playing as more than the sum of our parts.

It may or may not have worked, nobody can tell. What I do know is that it was infinitely more likely to work than "Shuffle across a bit" and "It's all your faults, I can't trust you you lasy ****s"

On the second point, sorry I mis-worded my post. I should have said that the only facts we have are the goals Ade has scored under TS. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest Ade has ever said 'I am better than AVB at managing football teams' like you are suggesting he has.

Not sure how you haven't read this yet:
http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/281755.html

And you never answered my question, would you rather be where we are now or fourth?

Fourth, or even higher obviously. Not sure of the relevance though.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I really wouldn't. My dislike for Ade's greed/laziness/mental weakness far outstrips my dislike of Timmeh's unfounded arrogance.

I can only take your word for it, but that is certainly not the impression you give on here.



There's really no love for AVB from me, I just understand what he was trying to do. What he was trying would likely have got us playing as more than the sum of our parts.

It may or may not have worked, nobody can tell. What I do know is that it was infinitely more likely to work than "Shuffle across a bit" and "It's all your faults, I can't trust you you lasy ****s"

The sum of our parts is a bigger number if you have your better players willing and ready to play for you. He should have found a way to work things out with Ade so that our best striker was given an opportunity to prove himself.


I have. There's no context in the article. Ade says, I told him his methods did not help the team. Methods in what, preparation? Training? On a match day? Ade could have said anything from you shouldn't be playing Dembele every week he's sh*t to we're training too hard the day before a match day or we're being given gatorade not lucozade before the match, lucozade tastes nicer, get me some of that good stuff. Only one of the above is wrong to bring up in front of the team.

The bottom line is that none of us know what Ade actually said and based on the facts we have (not evidence, facts), the team is much stronger with him in it. Without any other facts to back anything up, the only logical conclusion that you can come to is that AVB was wrong not to work out some way for them to get on.

Fourth, or even higher obviously. Not sure of the relevance though.

The relevance is that had AVB patched things up and played Ade, in a system that allowed us to get the best out of him, we could be sitting in fourth or higher right now.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Millsy, come on. Ade has admitted he didn't like AVB's ideas, told him in private, and then when he didn't get the answer he liked he told him in front of the group. Regardless of the particular idea in question, that isn't the point. He is challenging the manager's authority knowing the answer he will get. Ade disagrees with AVB, so there's a conflict. This is after AVB has tried to sell the guy.

People are saying AVB should have found some way to work it out with Ade, but it just doesn't work like that. There is a challenge to the leader's authority. The way to work it out is for Ade to be sold. Even if we take a shorter term hit, the longer term benefit of having a team with a manager's authority established is much more beneficial. Otherwise we'd be letting players go into business for themselves and all sense of teamwork, structure and becoming greater than the sum of our parts through the ideas that were trying to be implemented would be lost. The players would know that if they disagree, they can decide they don't like the ideas and the manager is so weak that he will play them anyway. It's a ridiculous situation to want to be in.

Levy should have sold Ade and took whatever financial hit was required to get him out of the club if he was truly backing AVB. It's another 50% measure of backing to say he's been given load of money to spend but not been allowed to rid the squad of the dissenters to his ideas. It's not about Ade being a good player or not because he clearly is talented, it's about something greater than that. Sherwood doesn't have some magic man management secret to get something out of Ade, he's just getting on with him better because he isn't AVB.

It's what it always comes back to with me though. I hope whoever the next manager is actually gets backed to build something and doesn't get give up on half way through the project. That doesn't just mean 'I've given you these players at this cost and I demand you make it work', it's allowing the new manager to get everything in place to make it a success. Everything he needs. Otherwise we will just be getting half measures again and treading water like usual.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Chancer you're talking a lot about luck when defending performances under Sherwood. But do you not think it's a coincidence that things like this keep happening? West Brom may have only had 6 shots, but 3 of them were bang on clear cut chances that were harder to miss. It's not bad luck if it's happening over and over.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Millsy, come on. Ade has admitted he didn't like AVB's ideas, told him in private, and then when he didn't get the answer he liked he told him in front of the group. Regardless of the particular idea in question, that isn't the point. He is challenging the manager's authority knowing the answer he will get. Ade disagrees with AVB, so there's a conflict. This is after AVB has tried to sell the guy.

People are saying AVB should have found some way to work it out with Ade, but it just doesn't work like that. There is a challenge to the leader's authority. The way to work it out is for Ade to be sold. Even if we take a shorter term hit, the longer term benefit of having a team with a manager's authority established is much more beneficial. Otherwise we'd be letting players go into business for themselves and all sense of teamwork, structure and becoming greater than the sum of our parts through the ideas that were trying to be implemented would be lost. The players would know that if they disagree, they can decide they don't like the ideas and the manager is so weak that he will play them anyway. It's a ridiculous situation to want to be in.

Levy should have sold Ade and took whatever financial hit was required to get him out of the club if he was truly backing AVB. It's another 50% measure of backing to say he's been given load of money to spend but not been allowed to rid the squad of the dissenters to his ideas. It's not about Ade being a good player or not because he clearly is talented, it's about something greater than that. Sherwood doesn't have some magic man management secret to get something out of Ade, he's just getting on with him better because he isn't AVB.

It's what it always comes back to with me though. I hope whoever the next manager is actually gets backed to build something and doesn't get give up on half way through the project. That doesn't just mean 'I've given you these players at this cost and I demand you make it work', it's allowing the new manager to get everything in place to make it a success. Everything he needs. Otherwise we will just be getting half measures again and treading water like usual.

And this is where AVB showed himself up to be weak. He should have said to the board - back me or sack me. I will never play Ade so you must sell him as he will ruin the team I am building. That was the crux of how he mismanaged the situation IMO. Noone else to blame but himself.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Spurs fans still getting moist at the memory of a coach who started 2 DM's at home to Norwich with a single isolated poacher up front; but going mental when another coach plays away with no DM's, 2 strikers, has 20 attempts on goal, missing at least 4 sitters and a penalty while at the same time managing 68% possession and 3 goals from open play.

You'd think this was a Palace or Stoke forum ffs.

You can play well and lose, play badly and win, and many combinations in between. The black/white analsyis of today's game - "Duh, we conceded 3 against relegation fodder therefore we're sh1t" - is pretty lame. There's important things to look at today and unimportant things.

Important

1. What was the one problem everyone agreed on at the start of the season? No matter your opinions on Harry or AVB or Levy or Sherwood or 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1, we all agreed on it.

Answer: That LB was a big problem. That was how we started the season, and that, fittingly, is what has ended our season today. We've coughed up the difference between CL and no CL because of that one position IMO, and everyone saw it coming. We walked right into it.

I don't need exotic theories about the competence or otherwise of coaches to explain where we fell short this season when Levy, Baldini, AVB, Sherwood and every poster on this board knew the problem 8 months ago. And here we are tearing the coach to pieces and asking why the sky is falling in. Not having a Plan B when Coantrao fell through is probably the crux of it.

2. West Brom had 6 shots all day, 5 on target, and they scored 3. Some people are saying they flew at us in attack...eh, the stats say they didn't. Or, if they did, we snuffed them out pretty handily. They just lucked onto an 83% strike accuracy rate today probably for the first time this century. Another freakish set of stats in this freakish season of stuff like this happening.

3. I saw someone say earlier: "Our shape was awful, we left huge spaces all over the pitch".

Eh, so what? Who cares? Apart from their 3 goals, they had 3 shots all game! So why the hell would we care about leaving empty spaces against a shower of sh1te that can't use space? People want us wasting players filling holes where there's no danger?

The correct tactical game was to attack SCBC, Sunderland and West Brom and assume we have trace defensive competence to win out. Mssrs. Rose, Kaboul and Chiriches meant we missed out on 3/3 today.

4. It is abundantly clear that the players have been instructed to play 1-touch pass and move. You could see that against SCBC and Sunderland and you could see it throughout the match today. In the end, this tactic produced 3 goals from open play against a team parking the bus. Of our 20 shots in total, 10 of those were inside the area (in other words, not speculative Hail Mary shots, but decent chances): http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszon...9/team-stats/6/0_SHOT_055#tabs-wrapper-anchor.

Our second half was really excellent, with fast passing, movement, mixing up short balls and long balls, channel balls, crosses, wingers coming inside and pretty triangles all around the D. On my commentary Trevor Francis kept having to change his mind about where Chdali, Eriksen, Kane and Lennon were playing because they were so fluid. There are real signs of progress and coherence in our attacking play here.

5. Starting so badly. This is huge, huge, huge. I don't understand the problem, but it looks like some kind of mental preparation issue. So weird and needs sorting. Games against Liverpool and West Brom totally distorted and bent out of shape by this same mistake. Again, we'd be CL if games started in the 15th minute. Huge.


Unimportant Stuff

1. What screwed it up today?

Two nothing, nonsense crosses from the right that 99/100 come to nothing. Against us though, they score 2 goals from them inside 2 minutes because we are cursed and our LB is a liability. But most of the time those crosses don't lead to goals. Wasn't someone on here just last week mocking the crossing game because it's so ineffective? Well, exactly. They lucked out big time.

Most of the time, on the first goal, our LB clears, or their winger botches the cross, or Hugo catches/clears the ball, or the rebound goes to a defender who clears it, or it goes to the striker who misses or miscontrols or has his shot blocked/saved. All those things went wrong there (cross ref with Liverpool's first, which was the exact same.) Ditto the second goal: all the same things, except at the end you can add Brunt hitting his best goal in years.

Statistically, the goals today should not have happened. They are meaningless, assuming you have a LB who can defend (and we all agree we don't have that) and 2 CB's who can head the ball clear (again, a shaky proposition with Vlad and Kaboul today, but generally true of Top 5 defenders).

Unless your specific concern about your team is "ZOMG don't under any circumstances let their winger have the ball in our LB position" and see that as the root of all evil, it's really silly to despair just because we let in two goals from that position.

....

In my opinion van Gaal is the only coach who should block Sherwood getting a shot next season. LvG is uniquely special and too good to turn down. But everyone else is a punt, and no better or worse a punt than Sherwood. If we appoint someone like Prandelli or Pochittino ahead of him that would be a mistake.

Very well put. Plus add in the 8 injuries to first team regulars. I would welcome a change, but if and only if the replacement was undoubted quality.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Chancer you're talking a lot about luck when defending performances under Sherwood. But do you not think it's a coincidence that things like this keep happening? West Brom may have only had 6 shots, but 3 of them were bang on clear cut chances that were harder to miss. It's not bad luck if it's happening over and over.

And is 15 goals in 16 games just bad luck... Or is something more fundamental at fault?
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And this is where AVB showed himself up to be weak. He should have said to the board - back me or sack me. I will never play Ade so you must sell him as he will ruin the team I am building. That was the crux of how he mismanaged the situation IMO. Noone else to blame but himself.

That's probably what happened - or certainly the reason he isn't here any more. Probably one of the biggest divisions between Levy and AVB. But if he was unable to be sold, he's keeping Ade away from the squad and maintaining his authority, with the hope of getting rid in January. Only Levy is telling him he needs to be using Ade. AVB knows this goes against everything he has been doing, so goes. I don't think he's been weak there at all.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Millsy, come on. Ade has admitted he didn't like AVB's ideas, told him in private, and then when he didn't get the answer he liked he told him in front of the group. Regardless of the particular idea in question, that isn't the point. He is challenging the manager's authority knowing the answer he will get. Ade disagrees with AVB, so there's a conflict. This is after AVB has tried to sell the guy.

Knowing the context of what he said is the only way to know if he was challenging the managers authority or not. But let's say he is and he then brings it up in front of the team in a way that makes AVB look bad, then yes, he's in the wrong. When Bale went to AVB last year and asked to be given more freedom AVB agreed. Had he not agreed and Bale then went on to say this in front of the team. Would AVB then freeze Bale out? If he did, would people on here be standing by that decision? I don't think so on both accounts.

His job as manager of Spurs is to get the most points as possible in every game. His biggest problem was scoring goals. He knowingly left someone out of the team who's been scoring for fun since being re-intorduced to the team.

People are saying AVB should have found some way to work it out with Ade, but it just doesn't work like that. There is a challenge to the leader's authority. The way to work it out is for Ade to be sold. Even if we take a shorter term hit, the longer term benefit of having a team with a manager's authority established is much more beneficial. Otherwise we'd be letting players go into business for themselves and all sense of teamwork, structure and becoming greater than the sum of our parts through the ideas that were trying to be implemented would be lost. The players would know that if they disagree, they can decide they don't like the ideas and the manager is so weak that he will play them anyway. It's a ridiculous situation to want to be in.

Again I point towards Bale last season. He challenged the leader's authority, the difference being that the leader agreed in this case. Again assuming what Ade said was extremely bad, he was in the wrong to bring it up in front of the team, but since he is your best hope of scoring goals and your job is to get the most points for THFC, I think you need to do a little more than just freeze him out.

Levy should have sold Ade and took whatever financial hit was required to get him out of the club if he was truly backing AVB. It's another 50% measure of backing to say he's been given load of money to spend but not been allowed to rid the squad of the dissenters to his ideas. It's not about Ade being a good player or not because he clearly is talented, it's about something greater than that. Sherwood doesn't have some magic man management secret to get something out of Ade, he's just getting on with him better because he isn't AVB.

It's what it always comes back to with me though. I hope whoever the next manager is actually gets backed to build something and doesn't get give up on half way through the project. That doesn't just mean 'I've given you these players at this cost and I demand you make it work', it's allowing the new manager to get everything in place to make it a success. Everything he needs. Otherwise we will just be getting half measures again and treading water like usual.

This is a fair point. Whether I think AVB was in the right or wrong, if Levy is claiming to back a manager he needs to stand by that manager and act on his decisions on the footballing front (as Liverpool done with Rodgers on the Suarez thing). Totally 100% agree with you here.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's probably what happened - or certainly the reason he isn't here any more. Probably one of the biggest divisions between Levy and AVB. But if he was unable to be sold, he's keeping Ade away from the squad and maintaining his authority, with the hope of getting rid in January. Only Levy is telling him he needs to be using Ade. AVB knows this goes against everything he has been doing, so goes. I don't think he's been weak there at all.

But that isn't what happened is it. He apparently (according To Ade) told him he was part of his plans. He didn't make it crystal clear to him at the beginning of the season that he wanted him out and he either sign for the club that ( against apparently ) wanted to sign him that he take them up on their offer or he wouldn't be part of the first team squad. Then he frigged around over the whole " compassionate" leave time off, then he sent word to him via another that he was to train with the youths, then he humiliated him with the standing on the chair and apologizing to team-mates incident, then he played him spasmodically in inappropriate games ( eg Emirates Marketing Project away) again apparently at the behest of others.

Weak weak weak at every stage.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But that isn't what happened is it. He apparently (according To Ade) told him he was part of his plans. He didn't make it crystal clear to him at the beginning of the season that he wanted him out and he either sign for the club that ( against apparently ) wanted to sign him that he take them up on their offer or he wouldn't be part of the first team squad. Then he frigged around over the whole " compassionate" leave time off, then he sent word to him via another that he was to train with the youths, then he humiliated him with the standing on the chair and apologizing to team-mates incident, then he played him spasmodically in inappropriate games ( eg Emirates Marketing Project away) again apparently at the behest of others.

Weak weak weak at every stage.

Surprised he didn't freeze them out as well because they questioned his decisions.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Forget who the manager is for a minute. If someone told you earlier this season that we would score 11 goals in our last three games, would anyone NOT have taken that?

Again, for those with short memories, somewhat different from 15 in 16 games.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Knowing the context of what he said is the only way to know if he was challenging the managers authority or not. But let's say he is and he then brings it up in front of the team in a way that makes AVB look bad, then yes, he's in the wrong. When Bale went to AVB last year and asked to be given more freedom AVB agreed. Had he not agreed and Bale then went on to say this in front of the team. Would AVB then freeze Bale out? If he did, would people on here be standing by that decision? I don't think so on both accounts.

His job as manager of Spurs is to get the most points as possible in every game. His biggest problem was scoring goals. He knowingly left someone out of the team who's been scoring for fun since being re-intorduced to the team.



Again I point towards Bale last season. He challenged the leader's authority, the difference being that the leader agreed in this case. Again assuming what Ade said was extremely bad, he was in the wrong to bring it up in front of the team, but since he is your best hope of scoring goals and your job is to get the most points for THFC, I think you need to do a little more than just freeze him out.



This is a fair point. Whether I think AVB was in the right or wrong, if Levy is claiming to back a manager he needs to stand by that manager and act on his decisions on the footballing front (as Liverpool done with Rodgers on the Suarez thing). Totally 100% agree with you here.

Agreed. But it is up to the manager to make his position crystal clear. He quite obviously didn't.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Knowing the context of what he said is the only way to know if he was challenging the managers authority or not. But let's say he is and he then brings it up in front of the team in a way that makes AVB look bad, then yes, he's in the wrong. When Bale went to AVB last year and asked to be given more freedom AVB agreed. Had he not agreed and Bale then went on to say this in front of the team. Would AVB then freeze Bale out? If he did, would people on here be standing by that decision? I don't think so on both accounts.

His job as manager of Spurs is to get the most points as possible in every game. His biggest problem was scoring goals. He knowingly left someone out of the team who's been scoring for fun since being re-intorduced to the team.



Again I point towards Bale last season. He challenged the leader's authority, the difference being that the leader agreed in this case. Again assuming what Ade said was extremely bad, he was in the wrong to bring it up in front of the team, but since he is your best hope of scoring goals and your job is to get the most points for THFC, I think you need to do a little more than just freeze him out.



This is a fair point. Whether I think AVB was in the right or wrong, if Levy is claiming to back a manager he needs to stand by that manager and act on his decisions on the footballing front (as Liverpool done with Rodgers on the Suarez thing). Totally 100% agree with you here.

Honestly I think if Bale said to AVB 'I want you to play me up front' and AVB said no, and then Bale did it in front of the entire team knowing the answer he was going to get, I would completely agree with AVB or any manager dropping Bale in that scenario. I think it's an awful attitude to foster in the club if players are encouraged to challenge the manager at every turn because they don't like his ideas, particularly when those ideas were signed up with the intention of giving us the structure to make us greater than the sum of our parts. If we want a culture of individuals expressing themsevles it's a little different, but I still don't think any manager should be taking kindly to having authority challenges in front of the group when they have already given an answer in private.

And the difference with Bale is that he went to AVB and said 'Help me improve my game', in a collegiate manner, they worked together for the benefit of the club. I don't think Bale was demanding anything. He was seeking help with his game. Ade has admitted to making a broad statement in front of the group saying 'you're ideas will not help the club' as if he is qualified to know that because he has played at Real Madrid. It's simply not his place and he got what he deserved IMO.

AVB's job was to build Spurs into a club that could punch even further above it's weight. The way to doing that was decided that a team structure would be implemented that would allow us to function as more than the sum of our parts. If it meant we took a short term hit in a lack of goals because a dissenting striker isn't buying into that vision then I think it's absolutely the right thing to do.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But that isn't what happened is it. He apparently (according To Ade) told him he was part of his plans. He didn't make it crystal clear to him at the beginning of the season that he wanted him out and he either sign for the club that ( against apparently ) wanted to sign him that he take them up on their offer or he wouldn't be part of the first team squad. Then he frigged around over the whole " compassionate" leave time off, then he sent word to him via another that he was to train with the youths, then he humiliated him with the standing on the chair and apologizing to team-mates incident, then he played him spasmodically in inappropriate games ( eg Emirates Marketing Project away) again apparently at the behest of others.

Weak weak weak at every stage.

I've been thinking about this chair incident, because we heard about that before we heard that Ade had questionned AVB in front of the entire group. So from an authority perspective, it's pretty good to humiliate the dissenting player and show them who is boss. Ade will come away from it feeling embarassed, feeling that AVB is a bit of a dingdong, and so will some other players. But at the end of the day that's ok. Not everyone has to like their boss. But the squad should have come away from it knowing that the boss isn't questioned and that the team is most important above the individual. The problem was we had no consistency because while AVB is doing this, Levy is pulling in another direction which completely erodes the point of what AVB is doing there.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed. But it is up to the manager to make his position crystal clear. He quite obviously didn't.

is the fact that his job title was manager not enough?

you do what your boss tells you, even if it's wrong, especially if it's wrong, without chain of command the whole thing falls apart
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Forget who the manager is for a minute. If someone told you earlier this season that we would score 11 goals in our last three games, would anyone NOT have taken that?

Again, for those with short memories, somewhat different from 15 in 16 games.

In our last three games we have scored 8 and conceded 8. I would not have taken that.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Honestly I think if Bale said to AVB 'I want you to play me up front' and AVB said no, and then Bale did it in front of the entire team knowing the answer he was going to get, I would completely agree with AVB or any manager dropping Bale in that scenario. I think it's an awful attitude to foster in the club if players are encouraged to challenge the manager at every turn because they don't like his ideas, particularly when those ideas were signed up with the intention of giving us the structure to make us greater than the sum of our parts. If we want a culture of individuals expressing themsevles it's a little different, but I still don't think any manager should be taking kindly to having authority challenges in front of the group when they have already given an answer in private.

And the difference with Bale is that he went to AVB and said 'Help me improve my game', in a collegiate manner, they worked together for the benefit of the club. I don't think Bale was demanding anything. He was seeking help with his game. Ade has admitted to making a broad statement in front of the group saying 'you're ideas will not help the club' as if he is qualified to know that because he has played at Real Madrid. It's simply not his place and he got what he deserved IMO.

AVB's job was to build Spurs into a club that could punch even further above it's weight. The way to doing that was decided that a team structure would be implemented that would allow us to function as more than the sum of our parts. If it meant we took a short term hit in a lack of goals because a dissenting striker isn't buying into that vision then I think it's absolutely the right thing to do.

Any actual evidence of this? Bale could equally well have said Harry played me in a few games there and I really like it. I don't like where you have been playing me as I don't get involved enough stuck out on the left? In this scenario, it was Bale himself who identified his best position as the coach had failed to spot it.

Everything is speculation.
 
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