• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

Do you want Tim Sherwood to stay as manager?

  • Total voters
    125
  • Poll closed .
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

indianspur said:
but football is still about entertainment, people want to be excited by what they are watching after paying a fortune for the privilege. Thats where AVB and some of his like are getting it wrong, especially here in English football. It wasnt just Spurs fans becoming highly frustrated by how we were playing, but also many in the media picked up on how drab we were becoming to watch. Of course this doesnt mean im advocating the Moyes approach of simply lumping 80 crosses into the box in one game. I hope that style disappears forever. But there is room for a balanced approach, the technical passing and movement that foreign football brings combined with the speed,power and goalmouth action that English football is known for. Imo of course
Click to expand...

I agree with all of that except the bit about the likes of AVB getting it wrong - if you read anything he's ever said about football he's not a defensive coach. He just didn't get the attacking bit right yet.

Anyway, technical football and exciting football are not mutually exclusive as you've said. So why play up to the fans who believe it is? They'll pretty soon have to change their minds when it becomes clear that they massively underestimated what football really is. See my link in the stats thread and Danny Baker's comment for a good example.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

scaramanga said:
I don't think he is, no. If he is then it's a really stupid thing to do.

Football is changing, even the most Neanderthal-like fans will soon realise that football is a bit more complicated than "get the ball to the big guy who'll lay it off for the little guy".

There's not much point chucking your chips in with a dying breed of fans - especially not when doing so will lead to ridicule amongst those who feel the opposite way about football.
Click to expand...

The general feel of this thread is that there are two basic beliefs;

1. The players are more important than the system
2. The system is more important than the players

Taking 1 to the extreme says that if you had 11 of the best players in the world in their positions and fired them onto a pitch you would win more games than you lose.

Taking 2 to the extreme says that if you had 11 of the worst players in the world in their positions but drilled them into a system that works for them then you would win more than you lose

So, JUST IMAGINE, if you had 11 of the best players in the world AND you drilled them into a system that works for them???


My point is that anyone who knows anything at all about football (and I include both TS and AVB in that bracket) understands that in order to be successful there has to be a mix of good players and a system that suits those players. You can make the most out of a **** team with a good system and you can make good players look **** with a system that doesn't suit them (IMO AVB did this but that discussion has been done to death).

AVB failed as he put too much emphasis on the system. TS may fail by putting too much emphasis on the players.


But here is a hypothetical question for you all........

Best players in the world in each of their position. No manager at all. Would they win the premier league?
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Millsy_Yiddo said:
The general feel of this thread is that there are two basic beliefs;

1. The players are more important than the system
2. The system is more important than the players

Taking 1 to the extreme says that if you had 11 of the best players in the world in their positions and fired them onto a pitch you would win more games than you lose.

Taking 2 to the extreme says that if you had 11 of the worst players in the world in their positions but drilled them into a system that works for them then you would win more than you lose

So, JUST IMAGINE, if you had 11 of the best players in the world AND you drilled them into a system that works for them???


My point is that anyone who knows anything at all about football (and I include both TS and AVB in that bracket) understands that in order to be successful there has to be a mix of good players and a system that suits those players. You can make the most out of a **** team with a good system and you can make good players look **** with a system that doesn't suit them (IMO AVB did this but that discussion has been done to death).

AVB failed as he put too much emphasis on the system. TS may fail by putting too much emphasis on the players.


But here is a hypothetical question for you all........

Best players in the world in each of their position. No manager at all. Would they win the premier league?
Click to expand...

There's an external limiting factor that your examples don't take into account though - the clubs playing on cheat mode.

There is no limit to how good our system can be - we can literally be the best in the world at that if we're inventive enough. We are limited in the players we can have.

We will only (over the long term - there will obviously be fluctuations) have the 5th-6th best squad, as squad quality correlates pretty well to money spent. We may make the CL once in a while but top players want to see regular qualification before joining. We can be Real Madrid's feeder club/retirement home - that's worked pretty well in the past, but that will never win the league.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

scaramanga said:
There's an external limiting factor that your examples don't take into account though - the clubs playing on cheat mode.

There is no limit to how good our system can be - we can literally be the best in the world at that if we're inventive enough. We are limited in the players we can have.

We will only (over the long term - there will obviously be fluctuations) have the 5th-6th best squad, as squad quality correlates pretty well to money spent. We may make the CL once in a while but top players want to see regular qualification before joining. We can be Real Madrid's feeder club/retirement home - that's worked pretty well in the past, but that will never win the league.
Click to expand...

That's kind of my point although I didn't explicitly say it. We need a manager who's capable of devising a system which means our players win all the games they should be winning, plus enough games that we wouldn't normally win to allow us to qualify for CL. We then need to build on what we have in order to stay there.

Whether that system needs to be complex or simple totally depends on the players at the managers disposal.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

africanspurs said:
maybe he is working on his style and has an end game in plan? maybe he is first working on one thing then he will address another etc etc.

give him time, like say ......3 whole years maybe??!!! a few weeks isnt enough surely.

3 years then judge him, this isnt even his team...plus its a whole new team of strangers...etc etc. you know the routine;)
Click to expand...

you know better than I do, no one will/can get 3 years.

A few weeks isn't enough to implement any system or style and that's not what I'm asking.

Pick the right side, have players do their duties (hold their line/positions), that's the simple part. Building a pressing/possession game, transitions, counters, players you pivot around (e.g. Eriksen), set pieces, etc. all take time.

The simple part has me concerned right now
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

scaramanga said:
There's an external limiting factor that your examples don't take into account though - the clubs playing on cheat mode.

There is no limit to how good our system can be - we can literally be the best in the world at that if we're inventive enough. We are limited in the players we can have.

We will only (over the long term - there will obviously be fluctuations) have the 5th-6th best squad, as squad quality correlates pretty well to money spent. We may make the CL once in a while but top players want to see regular qualification before joining. We can be Real Madrid's feeder club/retirement home - that's worked pretty well in the past, but that will never win the league.
Click to expand...

No it won't, and it can't

Watch the Scum this season, watch the next 10 games as it all implodes for them while Cheat$ki/City slowly pull away and lock the top 2.

Honestly, while everyone thinks this is an exciting season, this could be the season that sets the top 2 in England for the next 5 years with Scum/Pool/United unable to do anything but fight for 3rd/4th.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

scaramanga said:
I don't think he is, no. If he is then it's a really stupid thing to do.

Football is changing, even the most Neanderthal-like fans will soon realise that football is a bit more complicated than "get the ball to the big guy who'll lay it off for the little guy".

There's not much point chucking your chips in with a dying breed of fans - especially not when doing so will lead to ridicule amongst those who feel the opposite way about football.
Click to expand...

When I read this post I was reminded of last week's Guardian podcast where a couple of poncy, arriviste journalists were explaining how Arsenal's superior midfield technicians would simply pass their way through Liverpool and they would beat them at a canter.

Talk about ridicule.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

screen nayim said:
When I read this post I was reminded of last week's Guardian podcast where a couple of poncy, arriviste journalists were explaining how Arsenal's superior midfield technicians would simply pass their way through Liverpool and they would beat them at a canter.

Talk about ridicule.
Click to expand...

Anyone with anything to do with the Grauniad deserves ridicule.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Millsy_Yiddo said:
The general feel of this thread is that there are two basic beliefs;

1. The players are more important than the system
2. The system is more important than the players

Taking 1 to the extreme says that if you had 11 of the best players in the world in their positions and fired them onto a pitch you would win more games than you lose.

Taking 2 to the extreme says that if you had 11 of the worst players in the world in their positions but drilled them into a system that works for them then you would win more than you lose

So, JUST IMAGINE, if you had 11 of the best players in the world AND you drilled them into a system that works for them???


My point is that anyone who knows anything at all about football (and I include both TS and AVB in that bracket) understands that in order to be successful there has to be a mix of good players and a system that suits those players. You can make the most out of a **** team with a good system and you can make good players look **** with a system that doesn't suit them (IMO AVB did this but that discussion has been done to death).

AVB failed as he put too much emphasis on the system. TS may fail by putting too much emphasis on the players.


But here is a hypothetical question for you all........

Best players in the world in each of their position. No manager at all. Would they win the premier league?
Click to expand...



We could go with the Ballon D'or team of the year


______________________________Neuer (Bayern Munich)


Alves (Barcelona)___ Ramos (Real Madrid)__Silva (PSG)___ Lahm (Bayern Munich)



_______________________Xavi (Barcelona)_____ Iniesta (Barcelona)



Ronaldo (Real Madrid) ___Ibrahimovic (PSG)__Messi (Barcelona)__Ribery (Bayern Munich)


You'd think that team would walk any league in the world but wouldn't Ibra not want to be manager and Ronnie would tell him to go **** himself, which would result in Ronnie getting beat up and put in hospital for three months at least. Ibra would then be up for GBH. Ribery would tell them that they're both ***** and he's off out to check out David Pleat for some local info. Emirates Marketing Project would unsettle Neur by putting in a world record bid for a goalkeeper and wages to match and Charlie Adam would make a name for himself by doing little Messi.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

scaramanga said:
Anyone with anything to do with the Grauniad deserves ridicule.
Click to expand...

Exactly, well said!

Expensively educated, game theorist, tactics driven, formation obsessed uber-nerds who have never even kicked a ball in anger, pontificating their high-brow theories in basso-profundo voices as if that alone gives validity to their drivel.

Sounds a bit like ABV, really.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

screen nayim said:
Exactly, well said!

Expensively educated, game theorist, tactics driven, formation obsessed uber-nerds who have never even kicked a ball in anger, pontificating their high-brow theories in basso-profundo voices as if that alone gives validity to their drivel.

Sounds a bit like ABV, really.
Click to expand...

Had this been so I might have been able to hear what he was saying - if not what he was talking about.

All I got was lots of low mumbling and muttering, while looking down and avoiding eye contact except when question was asked. Signs of someone who is not speaking what he really thinks.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Millsy_Yiddo said:
The general feel of this thread is that there are two basic beliefs;

1. The players are more important than the system
2. The system is more important than the players

Taking 1 to the extreme says that if you had 11 of the best players in the world in their positions and fired them onto a pitch you would win more games than you lose.

Taking 2 to the extreme says that if you had 11 of the worst players in the world in their positions but drilled them into a system that works for them then you would win more than you lose

So, JUST IMAGINE, if you had 11 of the best players in the world AND you drilled them into a system that works for them???


My point is that anyone who knows anything at all about football (and I include both TS and AVB in that bracket) understands that in order to be successful there has to be a mix of good players and a system that suits those players. You can make the most out of a **** team with a good system and you can make good players look **** with a system that doesn't suit them (IMO AVB did this but that discussion has been done to death).

AVB failed as he put too much emphasis on the system. TS may fail by putting too much emphasis on the players.


But here is a hypothetical question for you all........

Best players in the world in each of their position. No manager at all. Would they win the premier league?
Click to expand...

Really excellent post Millsy!!

I think Wenger has Arsenal in example 1, he really does believe its all about players, you only have to look at the weekend just gone, Liverpool smashing them for 5. I would also say right now Rodgers has the perfect mix, he has some very good players and some average ones but they are playing in a system that suits them down to the ground.

Hard part for Liverpool will be next season if they get into the Champs League, more games and new players which could affect his system.

For Spurs to ever break into the top 4 under our current resources we need that lucky coming together of system and players and have a board that wont sell our top players regardless of the money offered.


On you last question Millsy I dont think the worlds best 11 would win any league without a manager
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

screen nayim said:
Exactly, well said!

Expensively educated, game theorist, tactics driven, formation obsessed uber-nerds who have never even kicked a ball in anger, pontificating their high-brow theories in basso-profundo voices as if that alone gives validity to their drivel.

Sounds a bit like ABV, really.
Click to expand...

Are you really serious or just playing the joker/devil's advocate here? I honestly can't tell.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

africanspurs said:
maybe he is working on his style and has an end game in plan? maybe he is first working on one thing then he will address another etc etc.

give him time, like say ......3 whole years maybe??!!! a few weeks isnt enough surely.

3 years then judge him, this isnt even his team...plus its a whole new team of strangers...etc etc. you know the routine;)
Click to expand...

I would have thought 18 months was the going rate for judging a manager rather than giving him 3 years to work on something.

And add in you must keep creaming off the top and say add 2/3rds of anew team every second season to see how he copes ...... just to keep it fair.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

screen nayim said:
When I read this post I was reminded of last week's Guardian podcast where a couple of poncy, arriviste journalists were explaining how Arsenal's superior midfield technicians would simply pass their way through Liverpool and they would beat them at a canter.

Talk about ridicule.
Click to expand...

I like their footy podcast but it has at least two massive Gooners - Amy Laurence and the French bloke. After the 5-2 where Ade got sent off Amy Laurence even said the sending off had no bearing on the game.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back