Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[thfcsteff]

I think the big difference is you knew what Ange was trying to do (regardless of if it was going to work)

- Ange used width, played a high line, focused on getting the ball to wide players with the delivery being a ball into box for opposite winger/FB to tap in, or cut back to CF. Some other basic principles existed (player fluidity, moving into spaces, creating overloads)
- With Frank, what is he trying to do? are we a pressing side? do we play a mid-block, do we use width or not, are we looking at overloads or isolations?

I think the reason some people gave Ange time is there was a system, would it work at this level? would it work with slightly better players? maybe, personally I didn't think it would (and that was his found out moment, the system was too easy to counter)

You look at Frank and you feel like he's spent a career being able to react, to play game by game and that was enough, now he's being asked what do you do if the opposition just sits back, if you have possession, how do you take possession from the opposition and keep it, how do you progress the ball from back -> mid -> front, do you use triangles/patterns?

It feels an awfully basic/naïve accusation but I'm not sure what a better passer at DM does for us, is it get it to them and hope? same as a better CF than Richi, just hoping for a better conversion rate? how does that help the team dominate and create a consistent system to win?

Really well stated.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Just 'cowardly' mate. Not 'defensive' or 'considered'. Conte played defensive football. Mourinho considered football. This is just pure cowardly.... I suppose if really pushed we could call it 'horseshoe football'

U shape
That’s what the Tacticos call it

 

[Bishop]

I think the big difference is you knew what Ange was trying to do (regardless of if it was going to work)

- Ange used width, played a high line, focused on getting the ball to wide players with the delivery being a ball into box for opposite winger/FB to tap in, or cut back to CF. Some other basic principles existed (player fluidity, moving into spaces, creating overloads)
- With Frank, what is he trying to do? are we a pressing side? do we play a mid-block, do we use width or not, are we looking at overloads or isolations?

I think the reason some people gave Ange time is there was a system, would it work at this level? would it work with slightly better players? maybe, personally I didn't think it would (and that was his found out moment, the system was too easy to counter)

You look at Frank and you feel like he's spent a career being able to react, to play game by game and that was enough, now he's being asked what do you do if the opposition just sits back, if you have possession, how do you take possession from the opposition and keep it, how do you progress the ball from back -> mid -> front, do you use triangles/patterns?

It feels an awfully basic/naïve accusation but I'm not sure what a better passer at DM does for us, is it get it to them and hope? same as a better CF than Richi, just hoping for a better conversion rate? how does that help the team dominate and create a consistent system to win?

That’s a really fair post. I’d say that with a player of the requisite ability, if I saw no change or improvement, my criticism would ramp up significantly. At that point, I’d feel the manager had been given the tools—at least at a basic level—to implement something resembling a coherent system on the pitch.

As things stand, though, because of the lack of on-the-ball quality in midfield, I struggle to look past the players’ limitations when weighing them against any coaching or systemic deficiencies from the man on the touchline.

If Frank lasts the season, my more critical view will come into play regardless, as I’d always give a manager at least a full season to properly assess what they’re trying to do.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think it is fair to say that our lack of squad depth last season was a major factor. Our squad has more depth this season, that is an undeniable fact.

It does
But despite them all playing for huge countries, having experience of winning things, adding experience
They are still all completely crap
It’s the only reason

 

[thfcsteff]

But he doesn't actually start for his country, and his country are crap these days with poor options up front. Its an irrelevant point.

On the topic of style, for clarity i've said multiple times I believe someone else can have us playing more progressively, so by no means do I think this current style is the only way we can play. Just last season, Ange had us in a different setup. What i'm actually saying is Frank, Ange, Pep, Klopp or Jesus himself isn't going to make this average group of players capable of playing open, progressive football effectively and to a high degree. For that and that is what I want we need to improve the quality of the players because as I said earlier which one of these guys is getting into our 2015-2017 teams?

I’ll take the back end because it is an interesting question…I’ll go team first. Then squad.

Porro would get into Poch’s side
Romero would get into Poch’s side
I’d argue that VdV would too

Simons gets into that squad
Deki gets into that squad (albeit unfair because he is not fit)
Bergvall gets into that squad
Gray gets into that squad
Kudus gets into that squad
Udogie

Based on the fact we signed the likes of Janssen and Nkoudou, Richy gets into that squad and possibly Odobert (possibly)

So, a 2016/17 Poch Spurs could have been…

Lloris

Porro
Romero
Vertonghen
Rose

Dembele
Wanyama (maybe Bergvall)

Son
Eriksen
Alli

Kane


It’s a fun game to play, especially with what was a wonderful side that should’ve won the title.

 

[Bishop]

I’ll take the back end because it is an interesting question…I’ll go team first. Then squad.

Porro would get into Poch’s side
Romero would get into Poch’s side
I’d argue that VdV would too

Simons gets into that squad
Deki gets into that squad (albeit unfair because he is not fit)
Bergvall gets into that squad
Gray gets into that squad
Kudus gets into that squad
Udogie

Based on the fact we signed the likes of Janssen and Nkoudou, Richy gets into that squad and possibly Odobert (possibly)

So, a 2016/17 Poch Spurs could have been…

Lloris

Porro
Romero
Vertonghen
Rose

Dembele
Wanyama (maybe Bergvall)

Son
Eriksen
Alli

Kane


It’s a fun game to play, especially with what was a wonderful side that should’ve won the title.

I think you're dreadfully wrong. Alderweird is a far better defender than Romero, he was also equally adept a passer. Walker while not faultless and not amazing positionally is in totality a better defender than Porro (who lets be honest is poor in that respect) and was able to run the wing all by himself. That comparison is actually a reasonable take, but one I disagree with. Bergvall (maybe) over Wanyama is comedy.

 

[billyiddo]

Porro would get into Poch’s side
Romero would get into Poch’s side
I’d argue that VdV would too

None of those players are fit to lace the boots of the alternatives mate come on

 

[billyiddo]

Bergvall (maybe) over Wanyama is comedy.

Missed that

 

[Legohamster]

I’ll take the back end because it is an interesting question…I’ll go team first. Then squad.

Porro would get into Poch’s side
Romero would get into Poch’s side
I’d argue that VdV would too

Simons gets into that squad
Deki gets into that squad (albeit unfair because he is not fit)
Bergvall gets into that squad
Gray gets into that squad
Kudus gets into that squad
Udogie

Based on the fact we signed the likes of Janssen and Nkoudou, Richy gets into that squad and possibly Odobert (possibly)

So, a 2016/17 Poch Spurs could have been…

Lloris

Porro
Romero
Vertonghen
Rose

Dembele
Wanyama (maybe Bergvall)

Son
Eriksen
Alli

Kane


It’s a fun game to play, especially with what was a wonderful side that should’ve won the title.

I'd say the gap between Udogie and Rose is smaller than Porro to Walker

Neither would get in the first 11 in my view.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Really well stated.

Yeah i think thats a really good summation our situation. In hindsight two really risky appointments by the club hierachy.

One guy who absolutely had a clear identity, a clear method but one that was a) pretty out there in terms of consensus of how to win at the top level and b) was untested at the top level. Similar to Bielsa it came with a bit of a disciple culture - you're either bought into it as a believer or you're left as an outsider looking in wondering WTF?

Another guy totally unproven outside of the build of his Brentford side which let's face it - bit like Alan Curbishley at Charlton every season in the PL is a bonus and there's just that huge unknown as to whether you can translate that to a club where the expectation is you win the majority of games, particularly at home.

 

[Muttley]

I’ll take the back end because it is an interesting question…I’ll go team first. Then squad.

Porro would get into Poch’s side
Romero would get into Poch’s side
I’d argue that VdV would too

Simons gets into that squad
Deki gets into that squad (albeit unfair because he is not fit)
Bergvall gets into that squad
Gray gets into that squad
Kudus gets into that squad
Udogie

Based on the fact we signed the likes of Janssen and Nkoudou, Richy gets into that squad and possibly Odobert (possibly)

So, a 2016/17 Poch Spurs could have been…

Lloris

Porro
Romero
Vertonghen
Rose

Dembele
Wanyama (maybe Bergvall)

Son
Eriksen
Alli

Kane


It’s a fun game to play, especially with what was a wonderful side that should’ve won the title.

Porro over Trips all day long. For me, not over Walker who was part of the 16/17 season.

The merged squad would be scary though.

Hugo, Vic, Kinsky
Walker, Porro
Rose, Udogie
Romero, VDV, Toby, Jan
Dembele, Wanyama, Dier, Gray, Bergval
Eriksen, Dele, Madds, Kulu, Kudus, Xavi, Lamela
Kane, Sonny, Solanke, Richi

 

[Finney Is Back]

There isn't a single one of our players right now that gets into that Pochettino first team and that is telling!.... I wonder whether some people should've given Ange a bit more kudos for winning the Europa League?

 

[thfcsteff]

I think you're dreadfully wrong. Alderweird is a far better defender than Romero, he was also equally adept a passer. Walker while not faultless and not amazing positionally is in totality a better defender than Porro (who lets be honest is poor in that respect) and was able to run the wing all by himself. That comparison is actually a reasonable take, but one I disagree with. Bergvall (maybe) over Wanyama is comedy.

I think you’re being short-sighted and not recognising the coach involved.

Poch would absolutely have improved Porro in the defensive area. same with Romero. If you cannot see how Poch would’ve adored Romero, then I cannot help you. Romero is a better player than Alderweireld, who looked better than he was precisely because he had Poch as manager. As for Walker, Poch was happy enough to sell him whether we agree or not. Porro would again have been a player that would’ve thrived under Poch’s tutelage, and would certainly have been better than Trippier. Let’s hope we don’t get our Pedro pocket picked by Pep (word is he is sniffing for him to return)…

I will concede that Bergvall over Wanyama is funny (different profiles and mischief-making on my part) however Bergvall as a replacement for Dembele when hurt would certainly have been something I think Poch would’ve enthusiastically entertained.

Of course you won’t agree because you think we have a bunch of carthorses.
There is no argument that this squad is not Poch 2016/17, but it is far better than what is being said IMO…

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yeah i think thats a really good summation our situation. In hindsight two really risky appointments by the club hierachy.

One guy who absolutely had a clear identity, a clear method but one that was a) pretty out there in terms of consensus of how to win at the top level and b) was untested at the top level. Similar to Bielsa it came with a bit of a disciple culture - you're either bought into it as a believer or you're left as an outsider looking in wondering WTF?

Another guy totally unproven outside of the build of his Brentford side which let's face it - bit like Alan Curbishley at Charlton every season in the PL is a bonus and there's just that huge unknown as to whether you can translate that to a club where the expectation is you win the majority of games, particularly at home.

If we had wanted a 'Frank' type manager, i.e. (kind of) 'mid-table proven' at PL level then my choice was Marco Silva, who I think has done just as good a job as Frank but has a lot more experience and managed far more clubs.

 

[Legohamster]

I think he is getting flack because of the eye gougingly bad, anti football. It is incredibly negative, slow, ponderous and boring to watch. The only player who appears to be allowed to pass the ball forwards is Romero.

It's been crap, losing at home football for a year, with the odd sprinkle of headless chicken running for good measure

 

[Robspur12]

Sorry but I don't buy that. Last season we had huge numbers of players out. At one point I think we had to play Gray and Davies as our centre back partnership. All teams suffer injuries. Every team in the league could say "if only X and Y were fit". Frank hasn't had an injury list as big as others in the PL this season and certainly nothing like the one that Ange had at one point last season. I'm not giving him a pass for coaching the team to play this boring, negative, cowardly, anti-football.

Teams who have injuries to key players struggle, especially to forward players as scoring goals and creating chances is probably more difficult than keeping goals out. I think the point about Madders, Deki and Solanke stands. It looks like none of them are going to feature enough this season to make a significant difference ( the jury is out on the return of Solanke). Yes Ange had injuries last season but a lot of those players returned for the business end of the season he just chose not to use them in the Premier League. Ange played more pragmatic football in the EL (some might describe that as negative and anti football), free flowing, front foot football it was not though.

I have too much respect for you and Spurs fans as a whole to get into any serious arguments around managers. I like TF, believe he needs time and hopefully he will get that. I think the football will improve and so will the results. We saw examples of more progressive football against Brentford and then Liverpool. I think he was unlucky in the latter game. In the end he'll be judged by all managers in the same way, the results he produces.

 

[thfcsteff]

None of those players are fit to lace the boots of the alternatives mate come on

I disagree.
Alderweireld was really good but Poch was his manager. Romero is a superior footballer technically. I think Poch would’ve loved Romero, loved him.
Walker and Porro? In retrospect Walker has been great (being managed by Pep and Poch did not harm his career). I remember Walker getting blasted here for being positionally naive many times. The knock was that he uses his pace to bail him out.

 

[Legohamster]

I think you’re being short-sighted and not recognising the coach involved.

Poch would absolutely have improved Porro in the defensive area. same with Romero. If you cannot see how Poch would’ve adored Romero, then I cannot help you. Romero is a better player than Alderweireld, who looked better than he was precisely because he had Poch as manager. As for Walker, Poch was happy enough to sell him whether we agree or not. Porro would again have been a player that would’ve thrived under Poch’s tutelage, and would certainly have been better than Trippier. Let’s hope we don’t get our Pedro pocket picked by Pep (word is he is sniffing for him to return)…

I will concede that Bergvall over Wanyama is funny (different profiles and mischief-making on my part) however Bergvall as a replacement for Dembele when hurt would certainly have been something I think Poch would’ve enthusiastically entertained.

Of course you won’t agree because you think we have a bunch of carthorses.
There is no argument that this squad is not Poch 2016/17, but it is far better than what is being said IMO…

Didn't Walker demand to leave?
I'm not sure he had much choice in the matter

 

[Finney Is Back]

Teams who have injuries to key players struggle, especially to forward players as scoring goals and creating chances is probably more difficult than keeping goals out. I think the point about Madders, Deki and Solanke stands. It looks like none of them are going to feature enough this season to make a significant difference ( the jury is out on the return of Solanke). Yes Ange had injuries last season but a lot of those players returned for the business end of the season but he chose not to use them in the Premier League. Ange played more pragmatic football in the EL (some might describe that as negative and anti football), free flowing, front foot football it was not though.

I have too much respect for you and Spurs fans as a whole to get into any serious arguments around managers. I like TF, believe he needs time and hopefully he will get that. I think the football will improve and so will the results. We saw examples of more progressive football against Brentford and then Liverpool. I think he was unlucky in the latter game. In the end he'll be judged by all managers in the same way, the results he produces.

Let's face it the football cannot get any worse.... We'll see whether results improve. I've got us down as a (not particularly) outside bet for relegation this year.

 

[thfcsteff]

There isn't a single one of our players right now that gets into that Pochettino first team and that is telling!.... I wonder whether some people should've given Ange a bit more kudos for winning the Europa League?

I think Poch would’ve quickly improved several of these players to a standard he’d have chosen for the first 11. I think Romero is a fine example of this, and am baffled by people who don’t see that as a clear possibility. I liked Toby, but if you gave Romero that side and manager, he’d have been a world beater.