Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[glorygloryeze]

Quite good at the start, then we got a horrendous number of injuries. Eventually the players came back and we secured safety in the league and then concentrated on the glory of winning the Europa League. We did that by playing cagey football in the away leg at Frankfurt in the quarters and again in the final against Man Utd.

Quite good?

Are you forgetting the horrendous losses to Brighton, Palace and Ipswich (when we had a chance to go third) BEFORE the horrendous injury lists really kicked in???

 

[Bishop]

Brazil not being quite as good doesn’t change my overall point. I’m not saying he’s prime Ronaldo. I’m just saying he starts for his country.

Anyway. I just massively disagree with this idea that the players aren’t good enough, and because of that I think you and I are coming at Frank from very different angles. I think the squad has good pedigree and is at the beginning of a coaching cycle, and in a couple-few months is going to start executing what Frank wants better, with more consistency. The players won’t suddenly have become so much better than they are, they will simply be further along in what Frank wants.

You seem to be saying that the players aren’t very good and Frank has no other choice but to play this way. I just flat out disagree. I don’t think games like the Chelsea home game were what Frank wanted. It was just a diabolical performance in possession. Out of sync, and lots of misunderstandings about what to do when.

I’m not even advocating for sacking Frank, I’m trying to articulate a vision for what I think he is trying to achieve. And I do think that there’s a good chance the second half of the season is going to see these supposedly average, lower mid table players put more consistent results together. Not because they all suddenly improved, but because they’re further along in their coaching cycle. I don’t think the players are average, unless also every national team coach and selection system is getting it wrong too.

But he doesn't actually start for his country, and his country are crap these days with poor options up front. Its an irrelevant point.

On the topic of style, for clarity i've said multiple times I believe someone else can have us playing more progressively, so by no means do I think this current style is the only way we can play. Just last season, Ange had us in a different setup. What i'm actually saying is Frank, Ange, Pep, Klopp or Jesus himself isn't going to make this average group of players capable of playing open, progressive football effectively and to a high degree. For that and that is what I want we need to improve the quality of the players because as I said earlier which one of these guys is getting into our 2015-2017 teams?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

But he doesn't actually start for his country, and his country are crap these days with poor options up front. Its an irrelevant point.

On the topic of style, for clarity i've said multiple times I believe someone else can have us playing more progressively, so by no means do I think this current style is the only way we can play. Just last season, Ange had us in a different setup. What i'm actually saying is Frank, Ange, Pep, Klopp or Jesus himself isn't going to make this average group of players capable of playing open, progressive football effectively and to a high degree. For that and that is what I want we need to improve the quality of the players because as I said earlier which one of these guys is getting into our 2015-2017 teams?

The fact Richy has been a shining light is scary
He has got goals despite his limitations

 

[thfcsteff]

What performances do you think were great? We gubbed City but we did that again this season.

One of my observations during Ange's reign was that for a reported style of football that was free flowing and attacking, we wasn't. We had moments where we'd build a nice attack at speed, but I can't really recall too many 90 min performances?

I didn’t say anything about 90 minute performances. I think there plenty of examples of us playing really well. I won’t get into listing them because we’ll end up in another rabbit hole discussion where people try to show ‘why it was or wasn’t’…I get it though. Some people didn’t like what he was trying to do.
I wish there was even an inch of latitude from them to appreciate that some of us appreciated his efforts.

 

[thfcsteff]

You were lamenting a style of play - and a lack of it from Frank. A lack of positive play, presumably because you liked Ange's dedication to style. Yet we won the Europa League buy giving up that expanisve football. You wouldn't criticise this, and say, oh if only we'd played expansive football and not won the trophy!

Now I know you’re trolling.

 

[Bishop]

I saw some really good football with a clear identity up to and including the Emirates Marketing Project away game. And then I saw a club on its knees making do and managing through with a historic injury crisis.

What you consider to be good football and what I consider to be good football are clearly different things because I thought we were bloody awful last season also (and yes I said it at the time). I really don't see any difference this year other than Ange flooded the opposition half with numbers and now we have a more considered approach. All the same problems of poor creativity, aimless sideways passing, lack of a killer ball, inabilities to beat a man, lack of shots on targets, lack of shots from distance etc all still existed.

 

[Bishop]

It’s doesn’t have to be one side vs the other. Some of us might agree that Ange had to go but still be totally underwhelmed by Frank’s appointment and unhappy with the dreadful stuff served up so far.

This I actually respect, but the majority who are really going in on him are the same ones who champion Ange.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Quite good?

Are you forgetting the horrendous losses to Brighton, Palace and Ipswich (when we had a chance to go third) BEFORE the horrendous injury lists really kicked in???

No, I'm not forgetting those. I thought against Brighton we played really well and then dropped off instead of carrying on attacking the way we had in the first half. Palace and Ipswich I think were after European games against opponents having a full week to prepare, where our really small squad was exposed. Right at the start of that season I said numerous times on here that we had made a big mistake going into the season with such a small, inexperienced squad.

 

[Finney Is Back]

What you consider to be good football and what I consider to be good football are clearly different things because I thought we were bloody awful last season also (and yes I said it at the time). I really don't see any difference this year other than Ange flooded the opposition half with numbers and now we have a more considered approach. All the same problems of poor creativity, aimless sideways passing, lack of a killer ball, inabilities to beat a man, lack of shots on targets, lack of shots from distance etc all still existed.

Do you really see no difference this season? 'considered approach'? I'm not sure I refer to the football we're playing right now to be 'considered', I'd use a different word beginning with c.... 'cowardly'.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Now I know you’re trolling.

So we can conclude you are okay with some dull football if it gets results.

 

[Bishop]

Do you really see no difference this season? 'considered approach'? I'm not sure I refer to the football we're playing right now to be 'considered', I'd use a different word beginning with c.... 'cowardly'.

Cowardly, considered, defensive you can use whatever term you like. Fundamentally, all of the same problems were present last season. They just manifest differently now.

 

[Finney Is Back]

This I actually respect, but the majority who are really going in on him are the same ones who champion Ange.

Equally the majority of those championing Frank are the same ones who were really going in on Ange....

 

[Finney Is Back]

Cowardly, considered, defensive you can use whatever term you like. Fundamentally, all of the same problems were present last season. They just manifest differently now.

Just 'cowardly' mate. Not 'defensive' or 'considered'. Conte played defensive football. Mourinho considered football. This is just pure cowardly.... I suppose if really pushed we could call it 'horseshoe football'

 

[Bishop]

Equally the majority of those championing Frank are the same ones who were really going in on Ange....

I don't know about that. I don't really see anyone championing Frank other than Spurmeup and he championed Ange too iirc (hes someone whose glass is always half full).

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't know about that. I don't really see anyone championing Frank other than Spurmeup and he championed Ange too iirc (hes someone whose glass is always half full).

Worrying if we have no fans other than Spurmeup who are championing Frank!

 

[thfcsteff]

So we can conclude you are okay with some dull football if it gets results.

You know what? Do what you like mate. If it helps you feel better and you want to black and white it like that, have at it.

 

[Bishop]

Worrying if we have no fans other than Spurmeup who are championing Frank!

Well the football is still pretty bad and as a fan base I think we are tired of being a bit brick. Add that Frank isn't a glamorous appointment and the opening of his term has been uninspiring, i'm not surprised.

Besides why should he get blind faith? He has to earn the love by winning games primarily and playing secondary imo.

 

[Muttley]

Equally the majority of those championing Frank are the same ones who were really going in on Ange....

It feels to me that Frank in season 1 is unfairly being benchmarked to Ange in season 2. What we need to remember is that in the middle of season 1 there was hardly an Ange detractor. Guys like me were still building data that eventually became a mid season decision point that he wasn't up to the job.

I still feel like it is way too early. I totally agree with Robspur about the missing 3 players. I think you have to plot in importance where they sit in the 1-25 squad places. To me, all 3 are probably first eleven, if not first sub. That's how important they are to this club. It's not so much about not having 3 players out of 25. It's realistically not having 3 players within the first 12 or 13 players. That's a quarter of our strength that has declined.

Also, it's not just about getting them back. It's about when they find top form and match fitness. I fear we don't get to see that this season.

 

[Raziel]

What you consider to be good football and what I consider to be good football are clearly different things because I thought we were bloody awful last season also (and yes I said it at the time). I really don't see any difference this year other than Ange flooded the opposition half with numbers and now we have a more considered approach. All the same problems of poor creativity, aimless sideways passing, lack of a killer ball, inabilities to beat a man, lack of shots on targets, lack of shots from distance etc all still existed.

I think the big difference is you knew what Ange was trying to do (regardless of if it was going to work)

- Ange used width, played a high line, focused on getting the ball to wide players with the delivery being a ball into box for opposite winger/FB to tap in, or cut back to CF. Some other basic principles existed (player fluidity, moving into spaces, creating overloads)
- With Frank, what is he trying to do? are we a pressing side? do we play a mid-block, do we use width or not, are we looking at overloads or isolations?

I think the reason some people gave Ange time is there was a system, would it work at this level? would it work with slightly better players? maybe, personally I didn't think it would (and that was his found out moment, the system was too easy to counter)

You look at Frank and you feel like he's spent a career being able to react, to play game by game and that was enough, now he's being asked what do you do if the opposition just sits back, if you have possession, how do you take possession from the opposition and keep it, how do you progress the ball from back -> mid -> front, do you use triangles/patterns?

It feels an awfully basic/naïve accusation but I'm not sure what a better passer at DM does for us, is it get it to them and hope? same as a better CF than Richi, just hoping for a better conversion rate? how does that help the team dominate and create a consistent system to win?

 

[thfcsteff]

What you consider to be good football and what I consider to be good football are clearly different things because I thought we were bloody awful last season also (and yes I said it at the time). I really don't see any difference this year other than Ange flooded the opposition half with numbers and now we have a more considered approach. All the same problems of poor creativity, aimless sideways passing, lack of a killer ball, inabilities to beat a man, lack of shots on targets, lack of shots from distance etc all still existed.

I think it is fair to say that our lack of squad depth last season was a major factor. Our squad has more depth this season, that is an undeniable fact.