The new, new manager thread - Pt 3

[SUIYHA]

1) Liverpool were expected to challenge for the league the year they finished 7th? i don't think so. He could quite easily get 60m to spend on player sales alone...i'm sure he could do a lot with that.

2) I don't know if he fell out with anyone at Valencia but it's common knowledge Moratti is a ****.

3) You're just stating opinion rather than anything factual here.

4) This is simply untrue beyond belief. Were you an AVB fan btw?

5) A total myth that his teams play boring football.

6) I've explained this before...the Alonso thing made PERFECT sense at the time. He wanted a pure defensive midfielder in the starting 11 to free up Gerrard in a more attacking role in the final third. At the time Alonso was deep lying playmaker that had not showcased his defensive skills to the degree that Gareth Barry did. Of course now it's obvious Alonso can play that role but at the time he didn't trust him enough to give him as much defensive responsibility as he would Barry had he signed. Of those list of strikers....Crouch and Kuyt did well...Bellamy did a decent job and Cisse was ok. I don't get what that list is meant to prove.

7) Maybe...not sure tbh. Would have to research this further.

8) So?

I really don't think you remember Rafa's reign at Liverpool too well.


1. They most certainly were expected to challenge that year:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/philmcnulty/2009/08/chelsea_and_manchester_united.html
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2009/aug/06/premier-league-preview-liverpool
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ar...es-Liverpool-title-Old-Grumpy-moan-about.html

They'd just finished 2nd and the team that finished above them had just sold Ronaldo and Tevez. They'd dropped a fair few points when Gerrard and Torres had been injured the year before, so the logic was if they stayed fit, the title was surely theirs. The more tactically astute amongst us realised that without Alonso, and with Gerrard playing behind the striker, there was nobody in midfield who could pass the ball and they were ****ed. Especially after a BAE inspired Spurs win on the first day of the season \o/

£60m to spend? Honestly, he'd probably sign one really good player, three average players and three players who are an embarrassment to the shirt.

2. Yes, he fell out with the board at Valencia too. I have no idea what his working relationship with Abramovic was like (probably not good). Even if we put Chelsea aside, as nobody really knows what goes on in there, that's three successive clubs he's fallen out with the owners at. Do you think Levy and Baldini are just really nice chaps that won't have anything bad to say to him if results aren't going out way?

3. Think there's a lot of fact in there. Real and Barca had dreadful seasons the years that Valencia won the league (though Real did win the CL in one of them). Poor league form IS an issue. He stayed at Liverpool for as long as he did because they were consistently good in Europe, but his league form raised questions about him getting sacked every year. Had Gerrard been booked for diving instead of having a penalty awarded in the CL final, the poor league form would most likely have cost Benitez his job in 2007 or 2008, as Liverpool were supposed to be one of the "Big Four" but never even came close to challenging for the title in five of his six seasons there. Same with his time at Inter, same with Chelsea.

4. I wasn't an AVB fan. I don't think there's anything wrong with relying on a star player or two, if you're sure they're going to be available. Again, I don't think you remember all this too well, as Liverpool were regularly called a "two man team" because they dropped points so often when either Gerrard or Torres wasn't available. Replicate this to our situation, in a more competitive league now where we are the 6th best of seven teams going for four Champions League spots, compared with when Liverpool were one of only four teams with a realistic chance of finishing in the top 4. If we don't quite make it and Eriksen/Lamela asks to leave for Champions League football again, we'll find ourselves in the same situation as this season, with the team miles off the pace and Benitez coming out saying how he could have won the World Cup if only we'd kept our star player...

5. It's not a myth. I watched his Liverpool and Chelsea sides regularly for years. I've acknowledged that they had some great games where the football was exceptional, but most of the time the great games were moments of individual brilliance. The FA Cup final against West Ham for example, Liverpool were crap, but Gerrard scored a screamer to cap off one of the most entertaining cup finals ever. For every game like that, there's a 0-0 boreathon. Those games with Mourinho....christ I can't even think about watching one of those again.

6. I guess Mascherano wasn't defensive enough for him then? He should also have known what Alonso was capable of, he only worked with him in training and on the pitch for 5 years. The list was meant to prove that, in six years of looking for star players, the kind to lift Liverpool from being a team that just qualifies for the Champions League every year because Tottenham can't get their act together properly to stop them, to being the kind that challenges for the title. Crouch, Kuyt, Bellamy, Cisse, Keane....can you imagine Man Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea spending big money to sign players like these to play up front around that time? They'd be squad players at best. Benitez signed them to be first teamers. Arsenal had Van Persie, Man Utd had Rooney, Chelsea had Drogba, and Liverpool had Peter Crouch. Let's not get started on the wingers, as Benayoun aside, they were beyond awful.

8. It's not a make or break point. But I prefer to limit the number of people I've spent years hating that I have to learn to love. Adebayor and Gallas were ok as the Arsenal fans hate them too. I'd also prefer our manager to have a bit of class and decorum about them, eg - Ancelotti, than be a complete tool.

 

[Grassroots]

And a few more for those interested

http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/15131

http://http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/15149

http://http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/15138

 

[SUIYHA]

Southampton's wages were the 3rd lowest in their first season in the PL and I really doubt that that jumped to 8th in their second season.

There's a lot of hindsight with him now as well imo. Of course he finished 8th, look at the players he had! Look at the competition!

As if people on this board were en masse predicting they would finish 8th in his 2nd season when he took over or that they thought Rodriguez/ Lallana/ Schneiderlein/ Lambert/ Ward- Prowse etc would look so good.

Ajax hadn't won the league in 7 years, then win 4 times in a row. I don't know as much about FDB as others but winning son consistently, regardless of how good the squad is, is always an acheievement.

the CL win at Liverpool is a great achievement of course, no denying that - however after Ramos and more recently AVB id be inclined not to rate managers purely on their cup successes at previous clubs. Valencia as mentioned earlier spent vast sums of money whilst he was in charge and were fortunate to be competing in La Liga at a time when Barca were floundering around the bottom half of the table. Napoli are probably the 3rd best side in Italy the last few years prior to his arrival and he has once again spent heavily and only really maintained that 3rd place status quo. Liverpool were big spenders and after several years he left them in a far worse state than when he took them on - had them in the top 4 places whilst they were 2nd/3rd highest spenders. so i don't think he has really shown himself able to get clubs punching above their weight - certainly not without massive financial outlay in the transfer market.

his record isn't as cut and dry when you start to look at it from a critical angle

i remember people pulling apart a far more impressive LvGs record and im sure should the likes of Mancini or Capello also be linked they'd suffer the same critical analysis

Both very good posts.

 

[Rossi22]

Frank de Boer CL and EL record:

2010/11
CL: Eliminated at the group stage
EL: Eliminated in the round of 16 by Spartak Moscow

2011/12
CL: Eliminated at the group stage
EL: Eliminated by Emirates Marketing Project in the round of 32

2012/13
CL: Eliminated at the group stage
EL: Eliminated by Steaua Bucharest in the round of 32

2013/14
CL: Eliminated at the group stage
EL: Eliminated by Red Bull Salzburg in the round of 32

 

[billyiddo]

Frank de Boer CL and EL record:

2010/11
CL: Eliminated at the group stage
EL: Eliminated in the round of 16 by Spartak Moscow

2011/12
CL: Eliminated at the group stage
EL: Eliminated by Emirates Marketing Project in the round of 32

2012/13
CL: Eliminated at the group stage
EL: Eliminated by Steaua Bucharest in the round of 32

2013/14
CL: Eliminated at the group stage
EL: Eliminated by Red Bull Salzburg in the round of 32

AVB and Ramos both won the EL -Di Matteo won the CL.

what exactly are you trying to prove here?

 

[SUIYHA]

I'll ask one final time - do those of you who want Benitez on the back of his trophy haul think that he'd have any chance of success here with at least four teams with stronger squads than us (if not six), limited budget to spend, a breed of fan who demands a different style of football to that he typically produces, a Director of Football, and a chairman who doesn't take kindly to his manager standing up to him?

Conditions he's won trophies with before are not replicated here. Conditions he's flopped with are. Go figure.

 

[Rossi22]

AVB and Ramos both won the EL -Di Matteo won the CL.

what exactly are you trying to prove here?

That despite multiple opportunities, he hasn't once been able to progress past a field of equal/superior teams, you'd think that for such a highly rated coach he'd have claimed a scalp or two in that time. I guess it's not so easy when you're not pushing around a bunch of minnows eh Frank.

 

[billyiddo]

That despite multiple opportunities, he hasn't once been able to progress past a field of equal/superior teams, you'd think that for such a highly rated coach he'd have claimed a scalp or two in that time. I guess it's not so easy when you're not pushing around a bunch of minnows eh Frank.

you do realize im not actually Frank de Boer

If winning the Dutch league with Ajax is such an easy task why do you think they went 7 years without a title prior to his appointment?

do you really think that PSV Feyenoord FC Twente and AZ etc are so far below Ajax that it's of no achievement to finish above them?

 

[Seedy Ron]

Conditions he's won trophies with before are not replicated here. Conditions he's flopped with are. Go figure.

Where did he flop? Inter presumably (answer my own question), although he still got some shiny stuff out of those few months too

 

[Grassroots]

On the other hand Frank de boer in Europe also had wins with inferior squads against ac Milan ,Emirates Marketing Project ,Barcelona

Who expected them to do well in them competitions with the squads he has had available and the funds he has had available ?

not even the Ajax fans did

 

[Rossi22]

On the other hand Frank de boer in Europe also had wins with inferior squads against ac Milan ,Emirates Marketing Project ,Barcelona

Who expected them to do well in them competitions with the squads he has had available and the funds he has had available ?

not even the Ajax fans did

These teams have progressed beyond the CL group stages since FdB has been in charge of Ajax:

Olympiakos
Celtic
Basel
APOEL
Copenhagen

So what's stopped him from doing the same? He's such a brilliant coach afterall. Here are some teams who have progressed past the Europa League round of 16 in that same time too:

Basel
AZ
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
Rubin
Kharkiv
Hannover
Twente
PSV
Dynamo Kiev
Braga

No Ajax though?

For me, the best sign of a good manager is one who gets his team punching above their weight. FdB so far has been unable to do this and until he shows he can, he doesn't deserve a job as big as Tottenham's. AVB couldn't cut it here and he was more qualified for the job thank Frank is.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I'll ask one final time - do those of you who want Benitez on the back of his trophy haul think that he'd have any chance of success here with at least four teams with stronger squads than us (if not six), limited budget to spend, a breed of fan who demands a different style of football to that he typically produces, a Director of Football, and a chairman who doesn't take kindly to his manager standing up to him?

Conditions he's won trophies with before are not replicated here. Conditions he's flopped with are. Go figure.

It seems you define him flopping as an absence of trophies (if your 'conditions for success/failure' are to be taken at face value). Well, he's never failed then, because he's won trophies and promotions at every single club he's managed, from Castilla to Napoli. So, in that regard, he's never failed. As for your concerns about the strength of our squad relative to other sides, Valencia were by no means the top dogs in Spain when he led them to consecutive titles: imo, Real, Barca and Atletico were all stronger than Los Che at that time. Similarly, Liverpool won the CL in 2005 with the likes of Dudek, Djimi Traore, Kewell, Josemi, and Carson in their first-team squad: rest assured that the very least, we have a qualitatively stronger squad now than Liverpool did then. Finally, the Club World Cup was won by his Inter side in 2010-2011, while Chelsea lost in the same competition with what was arguably a stronger squad in the 2012-2013 edition. Rest assured that Benitez has proved himself a master at making his squad perform beyond its individual compsition.

That we're seemingly ignoring him while going for Pochettino saddens me greatly. I hope we end up appointing Rafa, and end our own trophy drought at last.

 

[Hootnow]

Well, looks like my hope that firing Sherwood would lead to a more unifying coach was an absolute pipe dream.

This place will be an absolute bloodbath and replete with 'I told you sos' when the new manager inevitably hits a rough patch/ is fired from those who supported one of the other 2.

 

[billyiddo]

hadn't Valencia been in two CL finals prior to his arrival Dubai? i seem to recall them being one of the top teams in Spain around that time, spent heavily assembling a very strong squad. and as SHUIYA said in his previous post Barca were all over the shop at this point - it really was just them and Real really

imo, Real, Barca and Atletico were all stronger than Los Che at that time

would that be the same Atletico that were plying their trade in the Segunda division in 01/02?

the league was so strong that year that Deportivo came second :lol:

 

[Gutter Boy]

Well, looks like my hope that firing Sherwood would lead to a more unifying coach was an absolute pipe dream.

This place will be an absolute bloodbath and replete with 'I told you sos' when the new manager inevitably hits a rough patch/ is fired from those who supported one of the other 2.

People are just bored because of no football and frustrated because of no news. They will rally round whoever gets the job (assuming it isn't Moyes).

I think the arguments between Poch, FdB and Benitez are all relative. I'm not sure anyone would mind any of them that much. None will be Sherwood or Redknapp level divisive from the start appointments anyway.

 

[diego_maradona]

Well, looks like my hope that firing Sherwood would lead to a more unifying coach was an absolute pipe dream.

This place will be an absolute bloodbath and replete with 'I told you sos' when the new manager inevitably hits a rough patch/ is fired from those who supported one of the other 2.

To be fair the thread is dominated by the same few people saying the same thing over and over refusing to discuss anything. I'd imagine most would be quite happy with any of the 3 we are linked most to.

 

[Hootnow]

My own personal opinion is that Benitez is my 1st choice, partly because I think he is a very good coach and partly because I think he'd be the most likely out of the 3 to win us a trophy (which doesn't mean I think he would definitely win a trophy by any me, just from what I can see of the 3, he is the best at setting up his teams to beat better opponents in one off cup matches).

That doesn't mean I think the sun shines out of his ass though. He has a tendency to fall out with the chairman (and as we all know, Levy is mr loveable...), some of his transfers are puzzling and he can be overly defensive at times.

I would be happy with any of the 3 tbh. Perhaps that isn't a strong enough opinion for here at the moment though

 

[Hootnow]

That is quite true actually to be honest.

 

[DubaiSpur]

hadn't Valencia been in two CL finals prior to his arrival Dubai? i seem to recall them being one of the top teams in Spain around that time, spent heavily assembling a very strong squad. and as SHUIYA said in his previous post Barca were all over the shop at this point - it really was just them and Real really

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001–02_Valencia_CF_season
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001–02_Real_Madrid_C.F._season
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001–02_FC_Barcelona_season


Look at Real's squad: definitely much, much better. Look at Barcelona's spending and tell me you don't see parallels with Chelsea/City/United. Admittedly Atletico were dog**** (apparently they weren't even in the league back then), but Deportivo were coming off their 1999-2000 title win and were no pushovers. Valencia were fighting an uphill battle (they had finished fifth in 2000), and to do what Benitez did was admirable even back then when they were relatively stronger than they are now.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Mauricio Pochettino is no certainty as Tottenham hope to install new boss next week

Tottenham are confident of installing a new manager as early as next week with Mauricio Pochettino the leading contender to take over at White Hart Lane.

The Argentine is thought to be the favoured candidate of chairman Daniel Levy as Tottenham seek to finalise the package they would offer to Southampton to release Pochettino from his contract, which still has one year to run.

While Levy is attracted by the idea of having Pochettino, 42, as his ninth permanent manager in 13 years, it is understood that not everybody in the Spurs hierarchy is completely sold on the notion.

Indeed, it is thought some are trying to persuade Levy to look more seriously at two other candidates, thought to be Ajax head coach Frank De Boer and Napoli boss Rafael Benitez, a former Liverpool and Chelsea manager. There could also be an ambitious move for Carlo Ancelotti if Real Madrid lose Saturday’s Champions League Final against city rivals Atletico and he is sacked.

Beyond Pochettino, Levy is thought to be more interested in De Boer than Benitez and is expected to meet with his fellow decision-makers in the coming days to determine who is the club’s No1 choice to succeed Tim Sherwood. Southampton will still offer Pochettino a new deal but the reality is that the club appear resigned to losing their head coach, as well as his Spanish-speaking staff — assistant Jesus Perez, first-team coach Miguel D’Agostino, goalkeeping coach Toni Jimenez and technical support coach Fran Alonso.

Spurs would be required to find a settlement for the contracts of Pochettino and his staff, which are thought to be worth about £4million a year — the most likely stumbling block at this stage. Pochettino is chasing an annual salary of about £3m if he is offered the job at White Hart Lane, as well as pay rises for his support team.

It is thought he is happy to work within Spurs’s current structure, involving a technical director to provide the link between the boardroom and the training ground. Currently, that man is Franco Baldini.

Spurs are confident there should not be too much wrangling with Southampton to secure Pochettino, as Saints have already sounded out other managers. Standard Sport understands that Oscar Garcia, the Spaniard who quit as Brighton boss earlier this month, has had a number of conversations with intermediaries and that both Dan Petrescu and Roberto Di Matteo have supporters at St Mary’s. Garcia also has interest from Spain, where a number of managerial roles are up for grabs, but it is thought he would prefer to stay in England, where his family are settled.

As of today, De Boer’s representatives had received no further contact from Spurs since the original approach last month and neither had Ajax. De Boer’s contract does not expire until 2017 and if the Dutch champions are to lose him, they would like the matter resolved quickly. There is little appetite for a period of uncertainty extending far into the summer.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...pe-to-install-new-boss-next-week-9416156.html