The European Football Championship

[Lemonade Money]

They've only been fair because they've had no choice. The team, lead by Southgate and Kane, have managed to almost completely block out the outside noise since 2016.

Why is it coming to a head now? You've gotten through the group and have a more than decent path to the final. Like I said, you've all got sucked into this narrative that Southgate is completely clueless and despite comfortably getting out of the group -- yeah, boring performances, oh well -- you're already thinking about losing vs Italy because it'll give you a fresh start for a totally different tournament in 2/4 years. Rather than just getting behind the team for another couple of weeks and worrying about the rest later.

Why are you so bothered?

 

[tommysvr]

Why are you so bothered?

I'm not. I'm on a football forum discussing football.

 

[tommysvr]

I do agree with the gist of what you're saying, however I'm not sure it's because of toxic fans / press that we don't win anything (if that isn't what you meant by the bolded line apologies in advance).

For me it's more that it'd be more pleasant in general if people were on board / positive but even if that were the case we still wouldn't win anything. Similar situation with Spurs I guess. There's always some talented players and occasionally being tantalizingly close to being at the top level but the wheels usually coming off and we revert to being a bit brick again. That said, it's much healthier to have hope and enjoy the ride, even to get carried away whilst ideally falling short of absolute delusion.

You can't control what people think and it's natural that negativity attracts more attention. It'll never change but it's the folks who just declare we'd easily win stuff with a decent manager as if football is ever that binary. If there's moaning mixed in with some actual suggestions/ analysis then fair enough. It'll be fascinating to see which way we go following the tournament, but some may be in for a rude awakening if they think getting in an "elite" coach will suddenly make England brilliant, it's like they were sleeping during the Fabio Capello era as well as the Continho regime.

No, not saying it's the fans fault. I do think the press has a huge role though. Your last point is basically what I'm getting at though. England have had every type of manager, they've had some of the best players in the world, golden generations, home tournaments...but just cannot get over the line. Maybe it's more than just squad depth and tactics.

Southgate was a couple of penalties away from winning something a couple of years ago, and he was binned off before this tournament started. And people expect that to have a positive impact on the team? That they'll go out and play with the freedom and flair that everyone is wanting? It has the opposite affect.

Once again, I'm sure people will conflate this with me saying Southgate is the perfect manager. He's not. But he is the manager, and the negativity surrounding him and the team (throwing fudging cups of beer at them) is going to help you win as much as you've won since 1966.

Clearly I'm upsetting people because only English people can have an opinion on England, so I'll stop there.

 

[Lemonade Money]

I'm not. I'm on a football forum discussing football.

You've said the same thing 20 times.

 

[Jurgen the German]

They've only been fair because they've had no choice. The team, lead by Southgate and Kane, have managed to almost completely block out the outside noise since 2016.

Why is it coming to a head now? You've gotten through the group and have a more than decent path to the final. Like I said, you've all got sucked into this narrative that Southgate is completely clueless and despite comfortably getting out of the group -- yeah, boring performances, oh well -- you're already thinking about losing vs Italy because it'll give you a fresh start for a totally different tournament in 2/4 years. Rather than just getting behind the team for another couple of weeks and worrying about the rest later.

People just want to see better performances and actually enjoy the football. We’ve never been good to watch in my life apart from Euro 96. Granted that’s not all Southgate’s fault but he could do with letting the handbrake off given the strength of this team is going forward. I’m not even particularly anti-Southgate but I don’t think he’s the right man for the job right now. Obviously he will get this tournament whatever happens. This is the first time that him and the team have faced real criticism during his time in charge. Gary Neville rightly said the media and the fans killed the team when they went out in group stages of tournaments, managers like Robson and Graham Taylor got terrible stick from the press so it’s nothing new and I honestly don’t think it’s anywhere near as bad as it has been in the past. It’s just amplified because of social media.

 

[braineclipse]

People just want to see better performances and actually enjoy the football. We’ve never been good to watch in my life apart from Euro 96. Granted that’s not all Southgate’s fault but he could do with letting the handbrake off given the strength of this team is going forward. I’m not even particularly anti-Southgate but I don’t think he’s the right man for the job right now. Obviously he will get this tournament whatever happens. This is the first time that him and the team have faced real criticism during his time in charge. Gary Neville rightly said the media and the fans killed the team when they went out in group stages of tournaments, managers like Robson and Graham Taylor got terrible stick from the press so it’s nothing new and I honestly don’t think it’s anywhere near as bad as it has been in the past. It’s just amplified because of social media.

Good summary.

I think Southgate too wants to take the handbrake off a bit. You don't play TAA in midfield to make yourself defensively solid. You don't play Trippier at left back to be defensively solid. Plenty of games now where he's tried to make changes to impact the attacking play.

Usually at some point in a tournament there comes a time when you have to push for a goal and he seems to be looking for solutions for just that. He's just not finding them.

 

[tommysvr]

People just want to see better performances and actually enjoy the football. We’ve never been good to watch in my life apart from Euro 96. Granted that’s not all Southgate’s fault but he could do with letting the handbrake off given the strength of this team is going forward. I’m not even particularly anti-Southgate but I don’t think he’s the right man for the job right now. Obviously he will get this tournament whatever happens. This is the first time that him and the team have faced real criticism during his time in charge. Gary Neville rightly said the media and the fans killed the team when they went out in group stages of tournaments, managers like Robson and Graham Taylor got terrible stick from the press so it’s nothing new and I honestly don’t think it’s anywhere near as bad as it has been in the past. It’s just amplified because of social media.

That’s literally my point.

 

[tommysvr]

You've said the same thing 20 times.

…and? Just mute me if you don’t like my posts.

 

[Lemonade Money]

…and? Just mute me if you don’t like my posts.

You must be really bothered about it, to write it 20 times.

 

[P.D.]

No, not saying it's the fans fault. I do think the press has a huge role though. Your last point is basically what I'm getting at though. England have had every type of manager, they've had some of the best players in the world, golden generations, home tournaments...but just cannot get over the line. Maybe it's more than just squad depth and tactics.

Southgate was a couple of penalties away from winning something a couple of years ago, and he was binned off before this tournament started. And people expect that to have a positive impact on the team? That they'll go out and play with the freedom and flair that everyone is wanting? It has the opposite affect.

Once again, I'm sure people will conflate this with me saying Southgate is the perfect manager. He's not. But he is the manager, and the negativity surrounding him and the team (throwing fudging cups of beer at them) is going to help you win as much as you've won since 1966.

Clearly I'm upsetting people because only English people can have an opinion on England, so I'll stop there.

Football is a highly pressurized environment where praise and criticism both go over the top. In this scenario people just want to see some entertaining football, they don't mind 1 or 2 games being bad but when it's the same thing for 3 games straight where it seems it's pretty obvious that a change in tactics was required they get frustrated.

 

[SpurMeUp]

No, not saying it's the fans fault. I do think the press has a huge role though. Your last point is basically what I'm getting at though. England have had every type of manager, they've had some of the best players in the world, golden generations, home tournaments...but just cannot get over the line. Maybe it's more than just squad depth and tactics.

Southgate was a couple of penalties away from winning something a couple of years ago, and he was binned off before this tournament started. And people expect that to have a positive impact on the team? That they'll go out and play with the freedom and flair that everyone is wanting? It has the opposite affect.

Once again, I'm sure people will conflate this with me saying Southgate is the perfect manager. He's not. But he is the manager, and the negativity surrounding him and the team (throwing fudging cups of beer at them) is going to help you win as much as you've won since 1966.

Clearly I'm upsetting people because only English people can have an opinion on England, so I'll stop there.

Do you actually watch the games? Or just make obvious cliche statements about progress?

Anyone who knows anything about football watches the last few games, and can see the patterns of play, and team setup to use the space on the pitch is not effective. We don't make use of the wide areas. The players don't know where teammates will be, and have to stop, look, and think, by which time defenders are in place. The team selection and preparation of TAA in midfield and Tripper at LB are also lacking. It is not the players, it is the preparation of the players. If you can't see that, it's on you. No one else.

Southgate isn't a terrible manager, he is completent. But he's uninspiring. And should at least have the team setup in a shape that works, that the players understand. That is the criticism. On the flip side, we've played some very defensive teams who are hard to break down. Never the less, no one with any footballing knowledge thinks England have performed to their potential or look well setup...apart from you that is!

 

[Baleforce]

Hope this is correct. The pairing of matches represent the quarter finals.

Switzerland v Italy
England v Slovakia

Romania v Netherlands
Austria v Turkey

Germany v Denmark
Spain v Georgia

France v Belgium
Portugal v Slovenia

Can easily see Italy, England, Netherlands and Portugal going out.

That probably has some good odds.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It's a binary thing, they both were.

It was the most minimal contact you will ever see. Contact doesn’t equal a foul. Also don’t see how it was “clear and obvious” which is the whole selling point of VAR. it was debatable at best.

 

[tommysvr]

Do you actually watch the games? Or just make obvious cliche statements about progress?

Anyone who knows anything about football watches the last few games, and can see the patterns of play, and team setup to use the space on the pitch is not effective. We don't make use of the wide areas. The players don't know where teammates will be, and have to stop, look, and think, by which time defenders are in place. The team selection and preparation of TAA in midfield and Tripper at LB are also lacking. It is not the players, it is the preparation of the players. If you can't see that, it's on you. No one else.

Southgate isn't a terrible manager, he is completent. But he's uninspiring. And should at least have the team setup in a shape that works, that the players understand. That is the criticism. On the flip side, we've played some very defensive teams who are hard to break down. Never the less, no one with any footballing knowledge thinks England have performed to their potential or look well setup...apart from you that is!

Where have I said they “look well setup?” Where did I say I think playing Trippier at left back is a good idea?

Honestly when I see the replies to my posts in this thread, I feel like I must not be very good at communicating my points. But in this case it feels like you didn’t even read them.

 

[Baleforce]

It was the most minimal contact you will ever see. Contact doesn’t equal a foul. Also don’t see how it was “clear and obvious” which is the whole selling point of VAR. it was debatable at best.

You don’t need contact for a foul either.

 

[braineclipse]

Where have I said they “look well setup?” Where did I say I think playing Trippier at left back is a good idea?

Honestly when I see the replies to my posts in this thread, I feel like I must not be very good at communicating my points. But in this case it feels like you didn’t even read them.

You're pointing at reasons to be patient/supportive with Southgate. Done well before, almost won something, media and fans make it more difficult.

SpurMeUp is pointing at reasons to be critical. The setup now isn't effective, the team doesn't look prepared to play this way.

Is it fair to be critical of Southgate for what's going on now? I think you agree that's the case.

Is it fair thinking or saying that he should be replaced based on this taking into account what's happened before? People will disagree.

But just about anywhere those reactions will come when a big team is struggling like this, unless it's a manager with a massive amount of good will and a very solid reputation. And people who do will naturally focus on the reasons for the criticism, not the good stuff that's happened before.

Personally I agree with a lot of that criticism. I think perhaps Southgate has been the right man at the right time before, but no longer is.

Same happens at club level, but it's accelerated at international tournaments for international managers.

 

[tommysvr]

You're pointing at reasons to be patient/supportive with Southgate. Done well before, almost won something, media and fans make it more difficult.

SpurMeUp is pointing at reasons to be critical. The setup now isn't effective, the team doesn't look prepared to play this way.

Is it fair to be critical of Southgate for what's going on now? I think you agree that's the case.

Is it fair thinking or saying that he should be replaced based on this taking into account what's happened before? People will disagree.

But just about anywhere those reactions will come when a big team is struggling like this, unless it's a manager with a massive amount of good will and a very solid reputation. And people who do will naturally focus on the reasons for the criticism, not the good stuff that's happened before.

Personally I agree with a lot of that criticism. I think perhaps Southgate has been the right man at the right time before, but no longer is.

Same happens at club level, but it's accelerated at international tournaments for international managers.

My point is that "criticism" very quickly morphs into complete and utter negativity with England, and that can only be detrimental at a tournament like this. It's not going to change anything, and just adds more negative noise and weight on the squad.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Where have I said they “look well setup?” Where did I say I think playing Trippier at left back is a good idea?

Honestly when I see the replies to my posts in this thread, I feel like I must not be very good at communicating my points. But in this case it feels like you didn’t even read them.

The issue is, you want to say: England fans should appreciate Southgate, yet when you look at the detail and performances, you agree there are question marks and substandard setups.

You cant have it both ways. You simultaneously claim he’s a good manager and fans should appreciate him more, whilst also thinking his setup is suboptimal and his decisions questionable. Which is it?

 

[tommysvr]

The issue is, you want to say: England fans should appreciate Southgate, yet when you look at the detail and performances, you agree there are question marks and substandard setups.

You cant have it both ways. You simultaneously claim he’s a good manager and fans should appreciate him more, whilst also thinking his setup is suboptimal and his decisions questionable. Which is it?

Jesus this really is hard for you, isn't it?

 

[Jurgen the German]

You don’t need contact for a foul either.

Yes but in this instance it was given but there was contact in the loosest sense of the word.
Ange was a pundit for ITV who were doing the game and he rightly said VAR was brought in when something was clear and obvious that the ref missed but that was not clear and obvious.