The case for the defence

[glasgowspur]

The issues may be fixed with time but they are there for a full season. I'm not too concerned about the team not being clinical enough, we'll improve on that front. We have players that are developing that are a step up from what is playing at the moment and that alone will improve us up front. The concern is the same repeated mistakes that lead to us giving goals away. For most coaches fixing that would be their priority.

It's a forum, for discussing the good and the bad. Wouldn't be much discussion on here if we just sat back and enjoyed the ride (which I am mostly, much more fun that the last 4 or 5 years).

I don't think negative types have taken over, just a few rightly highlighting their concerns. Hopefully Ange will address the things that are wrong at the moment and this match will soon be long since forgotten.

I hope the break from here isn't too long, need someone overly positive to balance out us negative types

I like a good moan when things go wrong, doesn't mean I'm not fully behind ange and the team.
Negative response to negative games is normal and that's what I've seen last few days, apart from a couple of posters who have concerns, I think most of us are onboard.

 

[Finney Is Back]

True

View attachment 17542

Warch the goal again.

Romero was marking the other forward and vardy was at the far post totally unmarked. There's also reason to think Vicario could come out as its in the 6 yard box especially when the two attackers are short.

I've mentioned this many times last season. Even in games we won
Ange doesn't defend the far post much for some reason.

Sorry but that is a very selective picture. I would never use the final frame as the goal is about to be scored to try to show the issue. You always have to use the video that leads up to that.

In the lead up to that frame you have posted there, the Leicester player in the middle is marked perfectly by (I think it is) Sarr and Vardy is free at the back post. Despite Romero having a starting position close to Vardy and a clear view of our situation in the box where Leicester do not have a free player, Romero then runs past Vardy and into a position close to Sarr, 3 yards behind our defensive line. Sarr shuffles across because Romero arrives (and also maintains the neat offside line that only Romero ignores). Vardy is then free at the back post.

Terrible defending from Romero. Carragher and Neville were really criticising him for it in their post match review.

 

[braineclipse]

Sorry but that is a very selective picture. I would never use the final frame as the goal is about to be scored to try to show the issue. You always have to use the video that leads up to that.

In the lead up to that frame you have posted there, the Leicester player in the middle is marked perfectly by (I think it is) Sarr and Vardy is free at the back post. Despite Romero having a starting position close to Vardy and a clear view of our situation in the box where Leicester do not have a free player, Romero then runs past Vardy and into a position close to Sarr, 3 yards behind our defensive line. Sarr shuffles across because Romero arrives (and also maintains the neat offside line that only Romero ignores). Vardy is then free at the back post.

Terrible defending from Romero. Carragher and Neville were really criticising him for it in their post match review.

I agree, it's the wrong decision from Romero.

It's worth noting that (iirc, I haven't watched it back) he's quite far out on the right to help stop the attack there, the ball flies across, has to sprint in to cover more centrally and that's where he makes the wrong choice.

The amount of fires we all Romero and VdV to put out, the space they have to defend and how often they have to do it. Imo mistakes will always happen. I generally think Romero and VdV are really good at that. I don't think it's an underlying issue with our centre backs as such. There's essentially no one we could realistically sign that would do better, there's arguably no defender in the world that wouldn't occasionally make errors in these situations. And probably particularly so having recently returned to the club after an international tournament and summer break.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I agree, it's the wrong decision from Romero.

It's worth noting that (iirc, I haven't watched it back) he's quite far out on the right to help stop the attack there, the ball flies across, has to sprint in to cover more centrally and that's where he makes the wrong choice.

The amount of fires we all Romero and VdV to put out, the space they have to defend and how often they have to do it. Imo mistakes will always happen. I generally think Romero and VdV are really good at that. I don't think it's an underlying issue with our centre backs as such. There's essentially no one we could realistically sign that would do better, there's arguably no defender in the world that wouldn't occasionally make errors in these situations. And probably particularly so having recently returned to the club after an international tournament and summer break.

That wasnt a fire to put out
That was a simple case of mark your man. You have seen him and you literally leave him
It’s odd
It’s the equivalent of a striker stepping over a tap in to leave it for someone else who isn’t there

 

[braineclipse]

That wasnt a fire to put out
That was a simple case of mark your man. You have seen him and you literally leave him
It’s odd
It’s the equivalent of a striker stepping over a tap in to leave it for someone else who isn’t there

Disagree. We're scrambling. There's several threats in the box. In those situations instincts for a centre back will probably be to cover the centre of the goal. Can't know what kind of cross comes in. Another instinct will be to defend the area between the attackers and the goal (usually the most dangerous crosses).

It's a mistake, but not an odd one imo.

 

[DubSpur]

Disagree. We're scrambling. There's several threats in the box. In those situations instincts for a centre back will probably be to cover the centre of the goal. Can't know what kind of cross comes in. Another instinct will be to defend the area between the attackers and the goal (usually the most dangerous crosses).

It's a mistake, but not an odd one imo.

All the other threats were covered. Literally the only threat that wasn't covered was Vardey and that was because Romero goes walk about.
There was no need for him to be running back, he was a couple of yards from Vardey at one point.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Disagree. We're scrambling. There's several threats in the box. In those situations instincts for a centre back will probably be to cover the centre of the goal. Can't know what kind of cross comes in. Another instinct will be to defend the area between the attackers and the goal (usually the most dangerous crosses).

It's a mistake, but not an odd one imo.

We weren’t scrambling
It was an easy fix
It’s why the defenders on sky and even Michael Owen have all said it was an awful mistake
That wasn’t instinct IMO, it was a lack of match sharpness to recognise the danger
And if he defends the area between the attackers and the goal why leave their only CF free?

 

[Grays_1890]

Joint calamity IMO and indicative of where we fail.

At this point Romero has totally gone on a wander and Sarr has the man in the middle, which is on Romero, BUT any defence worth its salt holds its self accountable and Porro should be also screaming his head off to get Romero to switch on and see the danger, he has full sight on whats happening in the box.

I am not blaming Porro BTW but defending is a collective effort and by the time this goal goes in Sarr has decided to go for a walk also and is in no mans land.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Joint calamity IMO and indicative of where we fail.

At this point Romero has totally gone on a wander and Sarr has the man in the middle, which is on Romero, BUT any defence worth its salt holds its self accountable and Porro should be also screaming his head off to get Romero to switch on and see the danger, he has full sight on whats happening in the box.

I am not blaming Porro BTW but defending is a collective effort and by the time this goal goes in Sarr has decided to go for a walk also and is in no mans land.


View attachment 17547

Just before that Porro was on the floor having slid in to block the cross form his side

 

[DubSpur]

Joint calamity IMO and indicative of where we fail.

At this point Romero has totally gone on a wander and Sarr has the man in the middle, which is on Romero, BUT any defence worth its salt holds its self accountable and Porro should be also screaming his head off to get Romero to switch on and see the danger, he has full sight on whats happening in the box.

I am not blaming Porro BTW but defending is a collective effort and by the time this goal goes in Sarr has decided to go for a walk also and is in no mans land.


View attachment 17547

Sarr didn't go for a walk, he stepped out to the other side of the player he was marking because Romero has come over.

 

[Finney Is Back]

That wasnt a fire to put out
That was a simple case of mark your man. You have seen him and you literally leave him
It’s odd
It’s the equivalent of a striker stepping over a tap in to leave it for someone else who isn’t there

Vardy was quite clever on Monday night, he realised he was getting no change out of VDV so moved over to our right hand side to attempt to isolate Romero.

 

[Grays_1890]

Sarr didn't go for a walk, he stepped out to the other side of the player he was marking because Romero has come over.

Which is my point, there is zero collective responsibility in our defending, its about communication as a unit, people are all over the shop.

I know there is an obsession in the modern game to nail everything down to individual blame, but for me our defending issue there is between them all

 

[DubSpur]

Which is my point, there is zero collective responsibility in our defending, its about communication as a unit, people are all over the shop.

I know there is an obsession in the modern game to nail everything down to individual blame, but for me our defending issue there is between them all

What did you expect Sarr do to in that situation? Look around and make sure that Romero hadn't left someone unmarked at the back post?
With Romero coming over he is going to take it that he's come over because there is no danger behind and concentrate on the ball coming in and the man he is closest to. There is no blame on Sarr. I don't understand trying to blame anyone else when it is clear that Romero is 100% at fault.
He failed on two accounts, leaving Vardey unmarked and not stepping up to play Vardey offside.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Joint calamity IMO and indicative of where we fail.

At this point Romero has totally gone on a wander and Sarr has the man in the middle, which is on Romero, BUT any defence worth its salt holds its self accountable and Porro should be also screaming his head off to get Romero to switch on and see the danger, he has full sight on whats happening in the box.

I am not blaming Porro BTW but defending is a collective effort and by the time this goal goes in Sarr has decided to go for a walk also and is in no mans land.


View attachment 17547

Pretty much everyone is doing what they should be doing in that picture other than Romero (and to a lesser extent Son, who IMO really should be making sure he blocks that passing lane into Leicester's number 40 instead of just standing there).

Not including the keeper, we have 6 players in that danger zone compared to 4 for Leicester. There are only really two ways that Leicester score from there.... a ball into the 40, who would have VDV and perhaps Bentancur on him by the time he receives it anyway, or a ball into Vardy at the back post. Romero had no business at all trying to defend the exact same player and spot that Sarr had already covered really well.

As an aside here I thought that Sarr had a really good game on Monday. He was our best player in my opnion.

 

[Grays_1890]

What did you expect Sarr do to in that situation? Look around and make sure that Romero hadn't left someone unmarked at the back post?
With Romero coming over he is going to take it that he's come over because there is no danger behind and concentrate on the ball coming in and the man he is closest to. There is no blame on Sarr. I don't understand trying to blame anyone else when it is clear that Romero is 100% at fault.
He failed on two accounts, leaving Vardey unmarked and not stepping up to play Vardey offside.

I didn't blame Sarr, I said Sarr ended up wandering off which highlights in part the overall issue with our defence. I can't be any clearer in what I am saying about communication and defending and it being collective, if people wanna ignore that point thats cool. I played a fairly decent level and you switch off, everyone does it, but I played relative to the level with people who were accountable and would make you accountable, if I had (and I did) what Romero did my RB who is watching the line because he is facing up to play would be screaming at me to alert me of the danger then berate me even after even if I corrected and readjusted. Watch any Man United video from the 90s and they did it to each other like a machine.

Its rare if not never happens where players are note perfect in games, its about the adjustments they make that get them and the team out of trouble.

Thats my point, players make mistakes but its 100% a team effort in correcting them and i stand by it

 

[Finney Is Back]

I didn't blame Sarr, I said Sarr ended up wandering off which highlights in part the overall issue with our defence. I can't be any clearer in what I am saying about communication and defending and it being collective, if people wanna ignore that point thats cool. I played a fairly decent level and you switch off, everyone does it, but I played relative to the level with people who were accountable and would make you accountable, if I had (and I did) what Romero did my RB who is watching the line because he is facing up to play would be screaming at me to alert me of the danger then berate me even after even if I corrected and readjusted. Watch any Man United video from the 90s and they did it to each other like a machine.

Thats my point, players make mistakes but its 100% a team effort in correcting them and i stand by it

He didn't 'wander off'. He shuffled across because Romero came and picked up the man that Sarr was already marking. Prior to Romero coming across Sarr was marking him perfectly.... goal side, tight and keeping the offside line.

I don't understand how you can call an experienced centre back, running past, ignoring and leaving free his direct opponent to instead go and mark a player already being perfectly marked by a teammate anything other than a big mistake by the experienced centre back.

 

[Grays_1890]

He didn't 'wander off'. He shuffled across because Romero came and picked up the man that Sarr was already marking. Prior to Romero coming across Sarr was marking him perfectly.... goal side, tight and keeping the offside line.

Then you send the player back and say its your man, again communication, key in defending. I will go back again and say that situation is rectified if as a unit they pull together to make it better. Yes Romero is eventually "at fault" but its a situations thats easily saved before it gets to that collectively

Anyway I am leaving it there, said my bit and stand by it given lived experiences as a CB

 

[metalgear]

Saudi Sportswashing Machine goals

1. Romero not tracking back. (Also why don't we set up our attack like that with one guy forward and one guy behind?)


2. Romero gives up (yeah this is angeball and we will be conceding more goals like this, but no matter what romero should never give up! )

 

[Raziel]

 

[Lilbaz]

2 of the teams we played are tipped to be relegated though.