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The all new Striker thread..

Yeah, some players have one off seasons and others go on to do it over multiple years. What's your point? Don't buy anyone under the age of 30 in case they fall into the first category?
 
Ba and Cisse have been doing it for more than half a season, or even a season. Just because you may not be aware of how they were playing before they came to England, doesn't mean that they were nothing before they came to England.

But obviously Cisse won't maintain a 1 in 1 ratio, there's only 2 players in the world capable of maintaining such a ratio.
 
I think Managers in the premier league are wary of purchasing foreign players as they feel there is a greater risk of them not succeeding. So when these players do succeed the Managers then become interested.

Look at Modric for example
 
Hootnow said:
Ba and Cisse have been doing it for more than half a season, or even a season. Just because you may not be aware of how they were playing before they came to England, doesn't mean that they were nothing before they came to England.
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Dont think anyone was suggesting that Ba and Cissa were crap before they came to england but there are plenty of players who score goals abroad but cant adapt to the premier league
 
Wriggly said:
2010-2011 : Peter Odemwingie 15 goals for West Brom. Dont even ask, he wont.

2011-2012 : Ba and Cisse for Saudi Sportswashing Machine, 16 and 13 goals (to this date) so far are the most talked about. Going from the previous 10 years, will they do it again ?


My points are flavours of the month for one season are not the players we should be buying. Look above, look at those names (cringe). At the time yes, they did it for a season, they all sounded good and would have cost us a fortune, but now looking back, oh my lord. We need to buy consistantly good strikers not one that have their rich vein of form then die off into obsscurity never to achieve those false heights again.
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Very good post with valid points. People forget to consider the form of recent years. This season for instance Ba and Cisse have had a lot of publicity - go back a few years and you find as follows -

Ba's league record since 2007 is as follows

2007 Hoffenheim 37 in 97 league matches
2011 West Ham United 7 in 12 league matches
2011 Saudi Sportswashing Machine 16 in 32 league matches
5 goals in 12 international level

Cisse's league record since 2008

2008ÔÇô2009 Ch?óteauroux (Loan) 4 goals in 15 league matches
2009ÔÇô2012 SC Freiburg 37 goals in 65 league matches
2012ÔÇô Saudi Sportswashing Machine 13 in 12 league matches
9 goals in 17 at international level

I think you get a better overview this way and you can develop more of a feeling as to how a player is developing or not as the case maybe. I also think the age is a factor, for instance few players in their early 20s can point to a record of

1993ÔÇô1994 Cruzeiro 12 goals in league 14 matches and 1994ÔÇô1996 42 goals in 46 league matches by the time they are 20 (take a bow son)
 
AdamB said:
Dont think anyone was suggesting that Ba and Cissa were crap before they came to england but there are plenty of players who score goals abroad but cant adapt to the premier league
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But because very average unproven English players can go for as much as ?ú35m clubs will be forced to take that risk from abroad. As Liverpool have proved going English can be expensive and an even bigger risk
 
We've proven that ourselves.

Darren Bent ?ú16.5m - Dimitar Berbatov ?ú10.9m
David Bentley ?ú15m - Luka Modric ?ú16.5m
 
Great question! Do you think that all of the players you mentioned either ran out of luck; were found out, or were just superseded by the next best thing?

Often, I honestly believe that it is the novelty value of a player, who manages to hit the ground running and scores for fun that makes them successful in a "one-off" season.

I guess the real class and talent is in those players who are able to consistently score 15-20 goals per season, year on year?
 
Maybe the thing to do is to spot the talent before the player explodes onto the scene and alerts the whole world. Right now there are a host of players that managers know about but nobody wants to take that risk. For instance changing positions there was talk about Kompany when he was at Anderlecht but none of the clubs bothered to take a risk so he went to Hamburg and had a serious injury and missed the whole season after just playing a handful of games.

Do you chaps know Hamburg bought him from Anderlecht for ?ú9m and sold to Emirates Marketing Project for just ?ú6m? Now that is what I call dirt cheap for the player that looks the best defender in the league. I guess you have to scout, assess and just make a judgement call. But it is not like Hamburg sold Kompany because they they received a mind boggling offer that they could not refuse

Be it a Cisse, be it a Kompany or whom ever,there are excellent deals out there if you look hard enough
 
Wriggly said:
Score obviously, but have a shot on goal. He tries that again, 99 time out of a hundered that goes no where near what just happened. It was a freak goal that he will never do again.

I remember a Blackburn player a while back (his name escapes me) hit a shot so hard and fast that went like rocket right in the roof of the net that people were talking about it for ages. He never did it again.

I gave Alnoso credit for his half way line goal, because a couple of weeks later, he did it again.
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oh come on man....dude, the man had the ball and said to himself "i want to shoot for goal from here. i want to score from here" and it went in. he meant to score and he also meant to dip it...i dont know if he meant to swerve it though but i think he did mean to score. just cause it was once in a lifetime strike doesnt mean he didnt feel he had the ability to give it a go..yo know what i mean.

it looks impossible to people like us but these are professional footballers playing at the HIGHEST levels of the game. an in form striker in that arena could do that i think
 
NaijaSpurs said:
What annoys me about Cisse is that he was scouted by Carr, Saudi Sportswashing Machine's chief scout who left us to join them. Considering the bargains he has identified for Saudi Sportswashing Machine why did he leave us? Or why did we allow him to leave? What it a case of him recommending players but Harry was not interested in his recommendations?
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Does anyone have any ideas of who we signed as a result of his scouting?
 
I don't regret those we didn't buy so much as regret the poor striker signins we did make. Ie. Keane, Defoe and Crouch a highly unimaginative bunch that were ultimately doomed to fail. That is what we need to look at.
 
Southcote Spur said:
Great question! Do you think that all of the players you mentioned either ran out of luck; were found out, or were just superseded by the next best thing?

Often, I honestly believe that it is the novelty value of a player, who manages to hit the ground running and scores for fun that makes them successful in a "one-off" season.

I guess the real class and talent is in those players who are able to consistently score 15-20 goals per season, year on year?
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It could be a bit of everything to be honest. Remember Ipswich, Reading, Hull etc all having great seasons, then the season after teams learnt how to play them. The good teams would have been able to adapt but those sides had no answer and were relegated as a result. Maybe the same for the strikers, they have the freedom to play at the moment, but next season they will be doubled up on and will get no time. The good players will get past it, but the average player will struggle.
 
Wriggly said:
It's been a long time question of mine and a bit of a bug bear really. Let's me explain....

I'll start from the turn of the centuary (these are PL goals only)

2000-2001 : We had Markus Stewart scoring 19 goals for Ipswich. I remember it well, he was talked about like the best thing since sliced bread, he was class. He never did it again. Ever.

2001-2002 : We had Pahars for Southampton, scores 14, I remember he was supposed to only get better and better. He never did it again. Ever.

2002-2003 : That was Beatties year for Southampton, scoring 23. England striker, talked about a lot, remember he scored against us a few times and after his goal tally, I said do it again. He never did, Ever.

2003-2004 : That was Forssell's year remember ? Scored 17 for Birmingham that year. Never did again, Ever.

2004-2005 : We had the diving penalty king extraordinaire Johnson, diving his way to 21 goals for Palace. He never got that many penalties again, ever.

2005-2006 : Harewood. 14 goals for the spammers. Did jack brick ever again.

2006-2007 : We come to Benni MaCarthy, 18 goals for Blackburn. He was supposed to the the business. Never did it again, ever. Kevin Doyle 13 for Reading, didnt McCarthy quote something like ?ú12m to buy him ? lol he never did that again and never will.

2007-2008 : I had to endure Santa Cruz, 19 goals for Blackburn. He wishes he could do it again, but will never.

2008-2009 : Yawn year, nothing out of the ordinary for me.

2009-2010 : As above

2010-2011 : Peter Odemwingie 15 goals for West Brom. Dont even ask, he wont.

2011-2012 : Ba and Cisse for Saudi Sportswashing Machine, 16 and 13 goals (to this date) so far are the most talked about. Going from the previous 10 years, will they do it again ?


My points are flavours of the month for one season are not the players we should be buying. Look above, look at those names (cringe). At the time yes, they did it for a season, they all sounded good and would have cost us a fortune, but now looking back, oh my lord. We need to buy consistantly good strikers not one that have their rich vein of form then die off into obsscurity never to achieve those false heights again.

p.s. This is my longest thread ever, and not one swear word.
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hmm

nah, you need to make a call on ba or cisse. this whole excercise doesnt work if you just sit on the fence for these guys. its soooo much easier to call it AFTER the event. you've clearly started this one cause you dont rate those two and you dont think theey will ever do it again. Ba has done it in a two season span...but never mind. you really do need to call it.

something else struck me, why dont you mention strikers that have done it and then gone on to keep on doing it? probably because they wouldnt fit into your examples due to hindsight?

ian wright..lower league guy , came up and did the bizz
les ferdinand..same as above
the black guy from fulham back in the day
eidur
defoe
andy cole

all players that showed a lethal spurt to get on the scene and maintained their scoring run. thing is though its much easier to say "yeah well they were good....." AFTER they have shown you what they are about

one guy you forgot to mention? emile heskey (as in goal scoring wise. i actually think that as a striker used for a battering ram he was one of the best)

yeah but you really need to call it on ba or cisse or both.
 
africanspurs said:
hmm

nah, you need to make a call on ba or cisse. this whole excercise doesnt work if you just sit on the fence for these guys. its soooo much easier to call it AFTER the event. you've clearly started this one cause you dont rate those two and you dont think theey will ever do it again. Ba has done it in a two season span...but never mind. you really do need to call it.

something else struck me, why dont you mention strikers that have done it and then gone on to keep on doing it? probably because they wouldnt fit into your examples due to hindsight?

ian wright..lower league guy , came up and did the bizz
les ferdinand..same as above
the black guy from fulham back in the day
eidur
defoe
andy cole

all players that showed a lethal spurt to get on the scene and maintained their scoring run. thing is though its much easier to say "yeah well they were good....." AFTER they have shown you what they are about

one guy you forgot to mention? emile heskey (as in goal scoring wise. i actually think that as a striker used for a battering ram he was one of the best)

yeah but you really need to call it on ba or cisse or both.
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You can include Henry in that list. He has no history of scoring before he joined Arsenal. His first season could have been attributed to a lucky streak :p
 
Wriggly said:
My points are flavours of the month for one season are not the players we should be buying. Look above, look at those names (cringe). At the time yes, they did it for a season, they all sounded good and would have cost us a fortune, but now looking back, oh my lord. We need to buy consistantly good strikers not one that have their rich vein of form then die off into obsscurity never to achieve those false heights again.
Click to expand...


I've talked about this a few times on this board but this can mostly be explained by regression to mean
 
I agree that strikers, like all players get overrated fairly quickly and that there is a point in giving players time to show what their true level is before making any absolute statements.

However I find it much more interesting to read or hear from people willing to form an opinion and put it out there. In most cases there are many more ways to be wrong than to be right so people will often be wrong, I accept that. Much rather have someone with an opinion that turns out to be wrong than someone that just spews out meaningless cliches. Of course that opinion has to be based on something, if it's only based on number of goals over a small sample size for example it's not much to go by and the opinion becomes a bit useless.

It's one of my main annoyances with football commentators and writers, so many self evident banalities floating around that have little to no meaning.
 
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