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Socialists

southstand1882 said:
It has had an affect. It ADDED to it

But the debt was there before!!!

Please educate yourselves on this one

It is a MYTH that the debts were caused by banks

It is PUBLIC SECTOR debt

Rewind 5 years. Imagine there was no banking crisis, and no spiv bankers

No financial crisis

But...please read carefully...

We would still be in debt to a tune of 1 trillion!!!!

This is a fundamental issue that socialists don't get
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From the sound of that, one would think that the Labour Party has been in power for the last thirty years! Havent the Tories spent plenty of that money, or are you describing them as socialists too?
 
Dubai, don't be do ignorant

Deficits cause debts

You agree on that?

We always run a deficit:
http://m.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data

The banks are not to blame for the debt

The figures you post simply compare borrowing as a percentage of GDP

That's utterly irrelevant

OK, in simple terms:

If I earn 100k, but overspend by 10k, I create debt

If I earn 50k, but overspend by 10k, I create debt

The first overspend is 10% of GDP

The second is 20%

The debt is still the same!!!!
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
From the sound of that, one would think that the Labour Party has been in power for the last thirty years! Havent the Tories spent plenty of that money, or are you describing them as socialists too?
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In a word, yes!!!!!

They all spend money they don't have

I'm don't care if they are blue, red, yellow or rainbow coloured

What the Tories do better, is saving for rainy days
 
southstand1882 said:
Dubai, don't be do ignorant

Deficits cause debts

You agree on that?

We always run a deficit:
http://m.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data

The banks are not to blame for the debt

The figures you post simply compare borrowing as a percentage of GDP

That's utterly irrelevant

OK, in simple terms:

If I earn 100k, but overspend by 10k, I create debt

If I earn 50k, but overspend by 10k, I create debt

The first overspend is 10% of GDP

The second is 20%

The debt is still the same!!!!
Click to expand...

so what is your solution? Roll back government spending, initiate cutbacks to programs, reduce pensions etc?
 
southstand1882 said:
In a word, yes!!!!!

They all spend money they don't have

I'm don't care if they are blue, red, yellow or rainbow coloured

What the Tories do better, is saving for rainy days
Click to expand...


then change the thread title to Socialists and Tories, also describe tories "as the scum of the earth""
 
southstand1882 said:
Wrong

Government spending created the debt long before the banking crisis

Why don't you tell me in percentage terms what banking crisis money is compared to public sector debt?

Do you even have a clue?
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Yes, I do. More of a clue than you, apparently. Every country has debt, it's not a plague that Britain and the US bear alone. Debt is an essential part of Western society.

In the UK, the concept of a 'national debt' gained a foothold in 1694. It peaked at something above 200 percent of GDP at the end of the Napoleonic Wars. It peaked at above 200 percent again after World War 2. Britain has always maintained a debt, and it has veered into deficit far, far more often than you'd think, and hasn't just existed because of nasty Labour thirty years ago or some similar claptrap.

And it's hardly an apocalyptic scenario calling for massive cuts in everything post-war Labour fought for, and in the ideals of the Beveridge report. Japan has a debt to GDP ratio of 208 percent, Singapore 120 percent, Belgium 98 percent...Britain ranks eighteenth in the list of countries ordered by debt-to-GDP. Japan and Singapore have strong social welfare programs, stable economies and no imminent risk of implosion. Why must Britain's debt be portrayed as apocalyptic and earth-shattering?

Britain will always maintain a debt, as will every other country. It is the nature of the world economy. So instead of abandoning everything the heroes of World War Two fought for (and voted for, considering Churchill's post-war defeat to Labour, the biggest shock in British electoral history) in the pursuit of unlimited self-interest and corporate greed taking over services that define the UK as a first-world, liberal nation, I'd suggest pressuring the government to raise taxes on the wealthiest, crack down on corporate tax avoidance, set iron regulations on the hedonistic investment banking sector to inspire confidence in the industry as a whole from the British consumer, and closing the tax loopholes that are losing billions of pounds in tax revenue every year....I'd sugest doing those things would be more beneficial than scaring ordinary people into abandoning things that the rich have no right to take away from them.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Yes, I do. More of a clue than you, apparently. Every country has debt, it's not a plague that Britain and the US bear alone. Debt is an essential part of Western society.

In the UK, the concept of a 'national debt' gained a foothold in 1694. It peaked at something above 200 percent of GDP at the end of the Napoleonic Wars. It peaked at above 200 percent again after World War 2. Britain has always maintained a debt, and it has veered into deficit far, far more often than you'd think, and hasn't just existed because of nasty Labour thirty years ago or some similar claptrap.

And it's hardly an apocalyptic scenario calling for massive cuts in everything post-war Labour fought for, and in the ideals of the Beveridge report. Japan has a debt to GDP ratio of 208 percent, Singapore 120 percent, Belgium 98 percent...Britain ranks eighteenth in the list of countries ordered by debt-to-GDP. Japan and Singapore have strong social welfare programs, stable economies and no imminent risk of implosion. Why must Britain's debt be portrayed as apocalyptic and earth-shattering?

Britain will always maintain a debt, as will every other country. It is the nature of the world economy. So instead of abandoning everything the heroes of World War Two fought for (and voted for, considering Churchill's post-war defeat to Labour, the biggest shock in British electoral history) in the pursuit of unlimited self-interest and corporate greed taking over services that define the UK as a first-world, liberal nation, I'd suggest pressuring the government to raise taxes on the wealthiest, crack down on corporate tax avoidance, set iron regulations on the hedonistic investment banking sector to inspire confidence in the industry as a whole from the British consumer, and closing the tax loopholes that are losing billions of pounds in tax revenue every year....I'd sugest doing those things would be more beneficial than scaring ordinary people into abandoning things that the rich have no right to take away from them.
Click to expand...

Mate, I want to have your baby.\o/
 
DubaiSpur said:
Yes, I do. More of a clue than you, apparently. Every country has debt, it's not a plague that Britain and the US bear alone. Debt is an essential part of Western society.
Click to expand...

Manageable debt is good

But we're at a tipping point now. The debt is too much, and the deficit is too large.

When we run debt at many hundreds of percent of GDP, it will lead to misery and ruin.

It is not sustainable.

We don't have the excuse of fighting world wars anymore.

It is shameful.
 
southstand1882 said:
Dubai, don't be do ignorant

Deficits cause debts

You agree on that?

We always run a deficit:
http://m.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data

The banks are not to blame for the debt

The figures you post simply compare borrowing as a percentage of GDP

That's utterly irrelevant

OK, in simple terms:

If I earn 100k, but overspend by 10k, I create debt

If I earn 50k, but overspend by 10k, I create debt

The first overspend is 10% of GDP

The second is 20%

The debt is still the same!!!!
Click to expand...

I would then suggest to you that you look at the following part of my post. I repeat, Singapore and Japan have highly advanced social welfare systems that neither government, and neither society, wants to get rid of to more effectively service this debt.

Running a surplus every year essentially means rewinding the clock, and getting rid of nearly all the social advances of the last century; universal healthcare, guaranteed pensions, free education...because like it or not, these things will cost money the UK doesn't have. Even the budget New Labour inherited in 1997 ( a masterpiece, balanced and serviceable) did not envisage running at a surplus.

It serves no meaningful purpose, and is not worth abandoning all the tenets of post-war first-world society for.
 
DubaiSpur said:
And it's hardly an apocalyptic scenario calling for massive cuts in everything post-war Labour fought for, and in the ideals of the Beveridge report. Japan has a debt to GDP ratio of 208 percent, Singapore 120 percent, Belgium 98 percent...Britain ranks eighteenth in the list of countries ordered by debt-to-GDP. Japan and Singapore have strong social welfare programs, stable economies and no imminent risk of implosion. Why must Britain's debt be portrayed as apocalyptic and earth-shattering?
Click to expand...

Because we are major world economy

If Singapore or Belgium sneeze, the world won't catch a cold

General government gross consolidated debt at nominal value was £1312.1 billion at the end of March 2012, equivalent to 85.8 per cent of GDP up from 79.9 per cent of GDP in March 2011 and 74.1 per cent in March 2010.

If we don't stop this, we will see an apocalypse alright. Riots will be commonplace.
 
Signapore and Japan are almost irrelevant. If they disappeared tomorrow, it would have minimal impact on the world's woes

Britain on the other hand is a different animal.

You need to start quoting numbers for countries that matter

China, Brazil, USA, Germany etc
 
southstand1882 said:
Manageable debt is good

But we're at a tipping point now. The debt is too much, and the deficit is too large.

When we run debt at many hundreds of percent of GDP, it will lead to misery and ruin.

It is not sustainable.

We don't have the excuse of fighting world wars anymore.

It is shameful.
Click to expand...

Simple. After the World War, Britain voted to change society as a whole. Churchill was thrown out of office after leading the Empire to her finest victory. It did not come without cost, that victory; Britain was tired, broke and in ruins. But the soldiers returning home did not want society to go back to the way it was; they did not want to be left begging on the streets, as their fathers had after the First World War. And the British public didn't want that either.

So they voted for Labour. They voted to banish the five giant evils of society. Squalor, ignorance, want, idleness, disease. They voted for the NHS, they voted for social security, they voted for the Beveridge Report.

And every British citizen since has had the privilege of being able to access these services.

A serviceable debt is good; I agree with you. And that is what every country should aspire to.

But the debt was serviceable, is what I've been trying to point out all this time. It was serviceable, until the bankers had their little cocaine and investment party and forced the government into unsustainable spending. So you shouldn't blame the NHS, or pensions, or the public sector; blame the people who caused this mess. The bankers.
 
southstand1882 said:
Because we are major world economy

If Singapore or Belgium sneeze, the world won't catch a cold

General government gross consolidated debt at nominal value was £1312.1 billion at the end of March 2012, equivalent to 85.8 per cent of GDP up from 79.9 per cent of GDP in March 2011 and 74.1 per cent in March 2010.



If we don't stop this, we will see an apocalypse alright. Riots will be commonplace.
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Haven't you been watching the riots in Egypt, Greece and Spain? People, middle class people, have lost all hope, not just for themselves, but for their children too. All because of policies you apparently advocate for Britain.
 
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