• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Socialists

Good points, and valid, but i fear you are moving to a different paradigm of political systems and focusing more on the ethical aspects of a political system which are only applicable to the to attitudes and beliefs to each individual.

Socialism, capitalism or any political system will not solve any of the worlds problems. A political system will generally only dictate as to how we will go about solving the problem, which, in its broadest terms, would be to either throw money at it through technology (generally acquired through research and the quest for knowledge which may be aligned with capitalism) or through controlling our resources.

The political system of choice will not solve the problems you cited but i agree, capitalism has created them. But then, some may argue that capitalism can provide the answers too.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I think Skinhead has a good point here too. It's not really about socialism or capitalism anymore, or at least it shouldn't be, it should be about pragmatism (always should have been, of course). The problem with it is that it doesn't sell any votes in an election.

To quote the great Daniel Quinn from his book 'Ishmael' (a great read, highly recommended);

“The ship was sinking---and sinking fast. The captain told the passengers and crew, "We've got to get the lifeboats in the water right away."
But the crew said, "First we have to end capitalist oppression of the working class. Then we'll take care of the lifeboats."

Then the women said, "First we want equal pay for equal work. The lifeboats can wait."

The racial minorities said, "First we need to end racial discrimination. Then seating in the lifeboats will be allotted fairly."

The captain said, "These are all important issues, but they won't matter a damn if we don't survive. We've got to lower the lifeboats right away!"

But the religionists said, "First we need to bring prayer back into the classroom. This is more important than lifeboats."

Then the pro-life contingent said, "First we must outlaw abortion. Fetuses have just as much right to be in those lifeboats as anyone else."

The right-to-choose contingent said, "First acknowledge our right to abortion, then we'll help with the lifeboats."

The socialists said, "First we must redistribute the wealth. Once that's done everyone will work equally hard at lowering the lifeboats."

The animal-rights activists said, "First we must end the use of animals in medical experiments. We can't let this be subordinated to lowering the lifeboats."

Finally the ship sank, and because none of the lifeboats had been lowered, everyone drowned.

The last thought of more than one of them was, "I never dreamed that solving humanity's problems would take so long---or that the ship would sink so SUDDENLY.”
 
Socialism as I knew it will never exist, and probably never existed much beyond an ideal as the likes of Wilson weren't exactly the proletariat and had little interest being as such.

Modern society does not allow for things such as empathy or social support to be seen as positives. In fact, such behaviour publicly displayed is seen as 'weak' and 'supporting scum' and what-not...such a shame...

No-one wants to support cheats and layabouts, but in a society there will always be a few like this, and I have always found it incomprehensible how they should be allowed to ruin it for society at large.

I agree with Skinhead's point above, 100% on the money, and in this day and age it's perhaps the only hope we have of having anything remotely approaching a 'civilized' society as opposed to one which continues to ghettoize poverty, minorities and immigrants, whether by definition or tangible treatment.

BTW, anyone who wants to come in and start shouting 'lefty' at me can fudge right off before they get started. I will give as good as I get. No flower power here pal!
:barnet::lol:

I think the world would be a better place if charities were responsible for solving the worlds problems. And not government employees.

Our company provides professional services for free, and commits to raising £20K a year for Macmillan.

I'd rather rely on charities to support the abused, jobless, homeless et al , than some pen-pushing, pension-pilfering prick from the council.

Charities should be responsible for at least 25% of the work carried out by local councils.

Contrary to flimflam belief, capitalist's love charities and the work they do, and support them to the hilt.
 
Charities should be responsible for at least 25% of the work carried out by local councils.

Isn't this a form of taxation on the wealthy and middle class since they are the only ones capable of making charitable contributions? What is the difference between your idea and paying taxes which are then distributed to the poor?

Contrary to flimflam belief, capitalist's love charities and the work they do, and support them to the hilt.

I'm sure that some charitable business donations are made for the right reasons, but since all publicly-traded company's main goal is to maximise profits, then you can make the case that ALL of these donations are done for tax and publicity purposes rather than for the good of mankind.
 
I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I think Skinhead has a good point here too. It's not really about socialism or capitalism anymore, or at least it shouldn't be, it should be about pragmatism (always should have been, of course). The problem with it is that it doesn't sell any votes in an election.

To quote the great Daniel Quinn from his book 'Ishmael' (a great read, highly recommended);

“The ship was sinking---and sinking fast. The captain told the passengers and crew, "We've got to get the lifeboats in the water right away."
But the crew said, "First we have to end capitalist oppression of the working class. Then we'll take care of the lifeboats."

Then the women said, "First we want equal pay for equal work. The lifeboats can wait."

The racial minorities said, "First we need to end racial discrimination. Then seating in the lifeboats will be allotted fairly."

The captain said, "These are all important issues, but they won't matter a damn if we don't survive. We've got to lower the lifeboats right away!"

But the religionists said, "First we need to bring prayer back into the classroom. This is more important than lifeboats."

Then the pro-life contingent said, "First we must outlaw abortion. Fetuses have just as much right to be in those lifeboats as anyone else."

The right-to-choose contingent said, "First acknowledge our right to abortion, then we'll help with the lifeboats."

The socialists said, "First we must redistribute the wealth. Once that's done everyone will work equally hard at lowering the lifeboats."

The animal-rights activists said, "First we must end the use of animals in medical experiments. We can't let this be subordinated to lowering the lifeboats."

Finally the ship sank, and because none of the lifeboats had been lowered, everyone drowned.

The last thought of more than one of them was, "I never dreamed that solving humanity's problems would take so long---or that the ship would sink so SUDDENLY.”

Nail. Head.
 
Isn't this a form of taxation on the wealthy and middle class since they are the only ones capable of making charitable contributions? What is the difference between your idea and paying taxes which are then distributed to the poor?

I'm sure that some charitable business donations are made for the right reasons, but since all publicly-traded company's main goal is to maximise profits, then you can make the case that ALL of these donations are done for tax and publicity purposes rather than for the good of mankind.

Err, because then more money goes to the people that need it.

Not the pen-pushing pension-pilfering freaks that infest the public sector.

fudge me, it's not that hard to understand is it?

Perhaps you should run your idea about tax relief past Bill Gates.

Possibly the biggest philanthropist the world has ever seen. And a healthy capitalist.
 
You do realise that capitalist governments (ie. Conservatives and Republicans) also run huge budget deficits too? Not all Socialists are bad guys. Likewise, not all Capitalists are good guys.

Listen, I'm neither a Socialist nor a Capitalist. I believe in parts of both dogmas, and disagree with different parts at the same time. But if you really think that a charity is capable of running an enterprise with the size and scope of a national government, then you are delusional and naive.
 
You do realise that capitalist governments (ie. Conservatives and Republicans) also run huge budget deficits too? Not all Socialists are bad guys. Likewise, not all Capitalists are good guys.

Listen, I'm neither a Socialist nor a Capitalist. I believe in parts of both dogmas, and disagree with different parts at the same time. But if you really think that a charity is capable of running an enterprise with the size and scope of a national government, then you are delusional and naive.

Dude, all politicians are as bad as each other.

You're missing the point entirely. I'm saying charities should be responsible for social issues, not running the country.

I can tell you now that Macmillan do more for families affected by cancer than ANY public sector worker ever will.
 
Dude, there are so many holes in your argument that it is laughable, (although I do agree with your view of politicians in general). The obvious being what precisely is a "social issue" and what isn't? After all, doesn't every decision of the Govt end up having "social" ramifications. And what happens when the money dries up in needy times, when it is needed the most?

Do you really believe that there aren't decision-makers at all levels of Government trying to maximise the efficiency of government (it's the politicians who get in their way IMO)? And what is the difference between someone working for the public sector all of their life having a retirement plan and someone who works for the private sector having a similar nest egg? Why should a private sector mid-level manager make more than a teacher? Are they contributing more to society?

The point I'm trying to make is that to blame all of society's ills on one particular sector of society is not going to help find a solution. Not everyone on welfare are lazy, good-for-nothing chav scum. I don't know the figures but I would bet that the vast majority of welfare handouts are fully justified. You want to stop paying retirement money to the veterans who fought in WW2 just to make a point. Or my cousin with 3 kids isn't allowed to have money to feed and clothe them when her bastard ex-husband walked out on her? What about the private sector worker who was layed off through no fault of their own, because of poor management practices? Not all of societies ills can be blamed on government.
 
Unregulated capitalism will undoubtedly lead to disaster, ruin and misery. That much has been proven by the fantastic situation the Western economies find themselves in, thanks to a few banks and their investment arms that were considered 'too big to fail', after gambling with their depositors' money in an enormous game of hungry hungry hippos.

Therefore, 'blaming the rich for government overspending' shouldn't be the focus of this discussion. Government has a responsibility to represent the needs and wants of the people, no matter how skewed that concept may have become in our current Western democracies, with our unelected coalitions and our identical candidates. The majority of the people obviously support Hollande's tax plan; after all, he did get elected on that very platform. The question to be asked is why the people support it in the first place.

I refuse to believe that people are inherently jealous of the rich. In my experience, it's almost never the case. But people are getting very tired of this excuse governments provide for cut-backs, tax increases and social spending decreases, namely that 'we're all in it together'. Because every day, people see tax loopholes still open, people see taxes for the rich at low levels, and people see the men and women that caused this financial crisis that now requires these cut-backs, the bankers and other assorted members of the financial clique, rake in their multi-million pound bonuses regardless of the suffering they caused.

The wealthy members of society have little need for social security, or for social welfare. They are wealthy enough to carry on regardless. So when the social spending nets are cut, they're not overly affected. The closure or under-staffing of their local NHS branch won't affect someone who can fly to Florida for private treatment. However, social spending cuts do affect the poorer parts of society, those without enough money to live entirely independently of the government's assistance. And, rightly or wrongly, people believe that if they're all in it together, they should all suffer the cut-backs together. If social welfare is cut, people expect higher taxes on the rich, as their way of chipping in to this depression we ALL have to suffer. However, at the moment people aren't seeing that. They're seeing corporations get away with murder (see HSBC's slap on the wrist fine of money-laundering, for example), seeing tax loopholes and offshore tax havens being used to full effect by the richer members of society (as the Guardian pointed out earlier this year), and seeing those who caused the crisis getting away from punishment scot-free(as witnessed by the record bonuses enjoyed by the bankers in the past few years).

And at the same time they're seeing the police use violence to disperse protests, they're seeing petty offenders getting increasingly harsh sentences in the name of crack-downs on crime, they're seeing their local NHS (or other social welfare system) cut to the bone by private contractors eager to make a profit, they're seeing their taxes go up, and they're seeing their social security slowly ebb away.

This is what people are seeing, and they're not entirely stupid, contrary to government (and indeed, many conservative) views. And they're asking why; why the wealthier members of society have a standard of justice, of taxation, and of privilege afforded entirely to them, while the poorer members of society suffer these cuts made by the governments of the world in the name of fiscal tightening.

And they're angry about it. Angry enough to vote for government who promise super-taxes on the rich, using base populism to appeal to their angers and fears.

And there, in a nutshell, you see the genesis of Hollande's super-tax plan, and the genesis of this under-current of popular discontent at the wealthy, 'occupy Wall Street' and 'We are the 99 percent' being examples.

They're not all socialists. Most people are whole-hearted supporters of capitalism, of consumerism and of the principle of to each what he deserves.

But at some point, the system begins exposing the latent injustices associated with it. And it's up to government to provide fall-back options to people who are caught up in those injustices. When government fails to do so (as most conservative governments choose to do), you see increasingly radical alternatives being proposed. Such as Hollande's.
 
And what is the difference between someone working for the public sector all of their life having a retirement plan and someone who works for the private sector having a similar nest egg? Why should a private sector mid-level manager make more than a teacher? Are they contributing more to society?

That's quite simple.

The private sector worker has to fund 100% of their pension.

The public sector worker can kick back and let the taxpayers pay it for them.

I believe the numbers for teachers are approx £800 per month (that a private sector worker would have to put aside for an equivalent pension)

That's a disgrace.

Less public sector works = less leeching = less debt = less financial misery for all

EDIT: Obviously I'm not implying that we get rid of all teachers.....just ban the utterly departed pension policies
 
Less public sector works = less leeching = less debt = less financial misery for all

EDIT: Obviously I'm not implying that we get rid of all teachers.....just ban the utterly departed pension policies

Because absolutely none of the current global financial problems were caused by the private sector were they?!!!

And do you not think that the benefits a public sector employee receives is not calculated by that person as part of the reason why they accept a lower wage than if they worked in the private sector?

Seriously, your small-minded view of this massive problem is staggering. Yes, there are SOME public sector employees whose pension plans are out of whack. Agreed. But there are also a whole host of private companies and their employees who have made staggering amounts of money off the backs of hard working people like you and I which are just as appalling. Again you have made a blanket statement based on the excess of a small fraction of the population.
 
Well then maybe the public sector will be able to attract a better quality workforce who can rid the system of some of it's inefficiencies.

Obviously we disagree but I would much rather have a society of highly educated teachers, nurses and police than fat cat lawyers, bankers and middle men who produce nothing for the betterment of society overall. I for one think the world would be a much better place if we all cared about each other as much as we do about ourselves.
 
Dude, all politicians are as bad as each other.

You're missing the point entirely. I'm saying charities should be responsible for social issues, not running the country.

I can tell you now that Macmillan do more for families affected by cancer than ANY public sector worker ever will.

My mother has survived cancer twice thanks to the NHS and the staff at the Royal Marsden. Sorry mate, you're WRONG on that one!
 
Well then maybe the public sector will be able to attract a better quality workforce who can rid the system of some of it's inefficiencies.

Obviously we disagree but I would much rather have a society of highly educated teachers, nurses and police than fat cat lawyers, bankers and middle men who produce nothing for the betterment of society overall. I for one think the world would be a much better place if we all cared about each other as much as we do about ourselves.

Absolutely! Because then you would have intelligent people who realize that having PROPER government-funded services is actually a good thing for EVERYBODY as EVERYONE'S quality of life improves.
 
I think the world would be a better place if charities were responsible for solving the worlds problems. And not government employees.

Our company provides professional services for free, and commits to raising £20K a year for Macmillan.

I'd rather rely on charities to support the abused, jobless, homeless et al , than some pen-pushing, pension-pilfering prick from the council.

Charities should be responsible for at least 25% of the work carried out by local councils.

Contrary to flimflam belief, capitalist's love charities and the work they do, and support them to the hilt.


Essentially you're suggesting that welfare systems become the sole providence of private charities, which in turn turns 'charity' and welfare into a private business.
And once you're on that slope, the cost cutting comes.The compromises. And thus important services slide and slide and slide into oblivion.


RE: Gates...whilst he and Melinda Gates obviously do a lot of great work, let us not forget that a lot of their money goes into supporting research into programs and developments which can help in the future. We still need to take care of current daily situations, and frankly, if left reliant solely on the private sector, we will see society disintegrate faster than you could possibly imagine.
 
Unregulated capitalism will undoubtedly lead to disaster, ruin and misery. That much has been proven by the fantastic situation the Western economies find themselves in, thanks to a few banks and their investment arms that were considered 'too big to fail', after gambling with their depositors' money in an enormous game of hungry hungry hippos.

Therefore, 'blaming the rich for government overspending' shouldn't be the focus of this discussion. Government has a responsibility to represent the needs and wants of the people, no matter how skewed that concept may have become in our current Western democracies, with our unelected coalitions and our identical candidates. The majority of the people obviously support Hollande's tax plan; after all, he did get elected on that very platform. The question to be asked is why the people support it in the first place.

I refuse to believe that people are inherently jealous of the rich. In my experience, it's almost never the case. But people are getting very tired of this excuse governments provide for cut-backs, tax increases and social spending decreases, namely that 'we're all in it together'. Because every day, people see tax loopholes still open, people see taxes for the rich at low levels, and people see the men and women that caused this financial crisis that now requires these cut-backs, the bankers and other assorted members of the financial clique, rake in their multi-million pound bonuses regardless of the suffering they caused.

The wealthy members of society have little need for social security, or for social welfare. They are wealthy enough to carry on regardless. So when the social spending nets are cut, they're not overly affected. The closure or under-staffing of their local NHS branch won't affect someone who can fly to Florida for private treatment. However, social spending cuts do affect the poorer parts of society, those without enough money to live entirely independently of the government's assistance. And, rightly or wrongly, people believe that if they're all in it together, they should all suffer the cut-backs together. If social welfare is cut, people expect higher taxes on the rich, as their way of chipping in to this depression we ALL have to suffer. However, at the moment people aren't seeing that. They're seeing corporations get away with murder (see HSBC's slap on the wrist fine of money-laundering, for example), seeing tax loopholes and offshore tax havens being used to full effect by the richer members of society (as the Guardian pointed out earlier this year), and seeing those who caused the crisis getting away from punishment scot-free(as witnessed by the record bonuses enjoyed by the bankers in the past few years).

And at the same time they're seeing the police use violence to disperse protests, they're seeing petty offenders getting increasingly harsh sentences in the name of crack-downs on crime, they're seeing their local NHS (or other social welfare system) cut to the bone by private contractors eager to make a profit, they're seeing their taxes go up, and they're seeing their social security slowly ebb away.

This is what people are seeing, and they're not entirely stupid, contrary to government (and indeed, many conservative) views. And they're asking why; why the wealthier members of society have a standard of justice, of taxation, and of privilege afforded entirely to them, while the poorer members of society suffer these cuts made by the governments of the world in the name of fiscal tightening.

And they're angry about it. Angry enough to vote for government who promise super-taxes on the rich, using base populism to appeal to their angers and fears.

And there, in a nutshell, you see the genesis of Hollande's super-tax plan, and the genesis of this under-current of popular discontent at the wealthy, 'occupy Wall Street' and 'We are the 99 percent' being examples.

They're not all socialists. Most people are whole-hearted supporters of capitalism, of consumerism and of the principle of to each what he deserves.

But at some point, the system begins exposing the latent injustices associated with it. And it's up to government to provide fall-back options to people who are caught up in those injustices. When government fails to do so (as most conservative governments choose to do), you see increasingly radical alternatives being proposed. Such as Hollande's.

A superb post.
 
Socialism as I knew it will never exist, and probably never existed much beyond an ideal as the likes of Wilson weren't exactly the proletariat and had little interest being as such.

Modern society does not allow for things such as empathy or social support to be seen as positives. In fact, such behaviour publicly displayed is seen as 'weak' and 'supporting scum' and what-not...such a shame...

No-one wants to support cheats and layabouts, but in a society there will always be a few like this, and I have always found it incomprehensible how they should be allowed to ruin it for society at large.

I agree with Skinhead's point above, 100% on the money, and in this day and age it's perhaps the only hope we have of having anything remotely approaching a 'civilized' society as opposed to one which continues to ghettoize poverty, minorities and immigrants, whether by definition or tangible treatment.

BTW, anyone who wants to come in and start shouting 'lefty' at me can fudge right off before they get started. I will give as good as I get. No flower power here pal!
:barnet::lol:

This is something that the anti welfare lobby fail to appreciate. There is a premium for supporting the whole population, as it helps to civilise society. It reduces crime and other anti social behaviours. Countries without a welfare net are jungles. Think of certain parts of the US or cities like Rio. The solution there was to have occasional death squads to thin out the street kids etc. And before anyone starts up about Waltham Cross chavs, the problem would be a whole lot more widespread without the welfare state.
 
Dude, all politicians are as bad as each other.

You're missing the point entirely. I'm saying charities should be responsible for social issues, not running the country.

I can tell you now that Macmillan do more for families affected by cancer than ANY public sector worker ever will.

Including doctors and nurses?

I don't really have the time anymore to get involved in those long political debates on here but really?
 
Back