'Smart cards' plan to stop benefits being spent on drink

[scaramanga]

So the basis of your argument is get on your bike and move. The problem with your argument is that social cohesion would suffer. There would be no community,no roots,in fact no identity outside of an economic one.

Seriously though, where I live in Chichester there's a pretty good sense of community. Very few of the people there grew up in the area, they've moved there for a better way of life. It's the same around Windsor and Maidenhead too.

It did fail it was bailed out. It was saved by the state. You may not like that fact,but it is a fact none the less.

Some banks failed, they shouldn't have been. Capitalism would have carried on regardless, just as it always does.

 

[Paxtonloudmouth]

That is actually a falacy thrown out there by employers to keep salaries at a certain level.

There are people, equally employable, that would do a job for less than the "going rate" and that is true at ALL levels be it merchant bankers, proffesional footballers or street cleaners.

Spot on.

 

[Richie]

Paxton, I think you are falling victim to a common misconception about the idea of people leaving for better wages/lower taxes.

Firstly it absolutely happens, its called Taxable Income Elasticity and it is well studied in economics.

However it is a much smaller problem than is suggested. The real problem is the jobs that are never created because of the taxes/wages. When a company is deciding where to expand to or which country to base its headquarters these factors are very significant and have a big impact economically.

Tl;dr its not people leaving, its disincentivising people from coming in the first place

 

[Paxtonloudmouth]

Seriously though, where I live in Chichester there's a pretty good sense of community. Very few of the people there grew up in the area, they've moved there for a better way of life. It's the same around Windsor and Maidenhead too.



Some banks failed, they shouldn't have been. Capitalism would have carried on regardless, just as it always does.

It only carries on because it is propped up by the state you hate so much.

There will be no community if everyone is leaving chasing the money.

 

[Paxtonloudmouth]

Paxton, I think you are falling victim to a common misconception about the idea of people leaving for better wages/lower taxes.

Firstly it absolutely happens, its called Taxable Income Elasticity and it is well studied in economics.

However it is a much smaller problem than is suggested. The real problem is the jobs that are never created because of the taxes/wages. When a company is deciding where to expand to or which country to base its headquarters these factors are very significant and have a big impact economically.

Tl;dr its not people leaving, its disincentivising people from coming in the first place

That was my point that it is no real problem at all. Very very small amounts are leaving. Individuals and businesses enjoy the political stability the UK offers.

 

[scaramanga]

It only carries on because it is propped up by the state you hate so much.

If you really, honestly believe that all of capitalism would have collapsed had we let some insignificant, Northern bank go under then there's really not much further we can go on that point. Suffice it to say that I don't believe for a second that's the case.

There will be no community if everyone is leaving chasing the money.

That's not true at all.

Through low taxes and a policy of no affordable housing in the city centre (some clever conservation area scheme), Chichester has a community of like-minded people who all have a community spirit. They're not from here, they might not be staying here but there is a community.

 

[scaramanga]

That was my point that it is no real problem at all. Very very small amounts are leaving. Individuals and businesses enjoy the political stability the UK offers.

Yet thousands of job are being outsourced to call centres in India, or IT services to Russia. Those businesses aren't employing in the UK because the UK government won't let them be competitive.

 

[Paxtonloudmouth]

If you really, honestly believe that all of capitalism would have collapsed had we let some insignificant, Northern bank go under then there's really not much further we can go on that point. Suffice it to say that I don't believe for a second that's the case.



That's not true at all.

Through low taxes and a policy of no affordable housing in the city centre (some clever conservation area scheme), Chichester has a community of like-minded people who all have a community spirit. They're not from here, they might not be staying here but there is a community.

Please tell me you do not only think it was Northern Rock that was bailed out.

 

[Paxtonloudmouth]

Yet thousands of job are being outsourced to call centres in India, or IT services to Russia. Those businesses aren't employing in the UK because the UK government won't let them be competitive.

While making hay off the infrastructure the UK offers. You are getting an ought from an is.

 

[scaramanga]

Please tell me you do not only think it was Northern Rock that was bailed out.

I think bailing out Northern Rock caused a knock-on effect that meant far more bailing out was required.

It wasn't a failure of capitalism, it was a failure of Labour to properly apply the rules of capitalism.

 

[scaramanga]

While making hay off the infrastructure the UK offers. You are getting an ought from an is.

All countries offer infrastructure. The options aren't between the UK and some desert in the middle of nowhere.

Equally, how much infrastructure does a call centre need? They're not even in offices any more - people just use VOIP from home.

 

[Paxtonloudmouth]

I think bailing out Northern Rock caused a knock-on effect that meant far more bailing out was required.

It wasn't a failure of capitalism, it was a failure of Labour to properly apply the rules of capitalism.

No evidence for that at all. Even business leaders were admitting this was a humiliation. You are going beyond even your own side. Yes New Labour were crap,however they were capitalist to their core.

 

[Paxtonloudmouth]

All countries offer infrastructure. The options aren't between the UK and some desert in the middle of nowhere.

Equally, how much infrastructure does a call centre need? They're not even in offices any more - people just use VOIP from home.

They need legal infrastructure for one. Anyway I am off out,we will continue this anon.

 

[Richie]

That is actually a falacy thrown out there by employers to keep salaries at a certain level.

There are people, equally employable, that would do a job for less than the "going rate" and that is true at ALL levels be it merchant bankers, proffesional footballers or street cleaners.

This is frankly not nonsense, and flies in the face of reality that in capitalism profit is king. If you think businesses could increase their profit margin by paying less don't you think they would do it?

My sister fell 'victim' to this kind of thinking. The company she worked for as a graphic designer thought they could hire two kids out of college for less than her salary so made her redundant. A couple of months later she's working freelance and they hire her back at a higher rate because the work produced by the new employees wasn't up to scratch.

 

[the dza]

I'm glad I posted in this thread now :lol:

Interesting discussion. And to go back to the topic, I still think the smart card thing is a poor idea mainly because it's too easy to get around.

 

[Aldo]

I'm glad I posted in this thread now :lol:

Interesting discussion. And to go back to the topic, I still think the smart card thing is a poor idea mainly because it's too easy to get around.

Just like housing benefit?

 

[the dza]

Just like housing benefit?

I don't follow. How is housing benefit easy to get around?

 

[the dza]

Infact Aldo, don't bother answering that. I think the thread may take a turn for the worse. On that note, I'm out of it, enjoy yourselves! :lol:

 

[Superhudd]

I think it would be good if your an addict but I don't like the thought of someone telling us you cannot buy this or that. If someone on a certain benefit wants to live on a tin of soup a day and spend the rest on say SKY TV or Xbox live then so be it. What if the person wants to make a dinner that involves alcohol. I think though child benefits it would be great for. Would be interesting how a card scheme would affect the disabled. It would mean every institute where you want to purchase something would need to carry that. Most fast food places.. like fish and chip shops only accept cash.

 

[Paxtonloudmouth]

I think it would be good if your an addict but I don't like the thought of someone telling us you cannot buy this or that. If someone on a certain benefit wants to live on a tin of soup a day and spend the rest on say SKY TV or Xbox live then so be it. What if the person wants to make a dinner that involves alcohol. I think though child benefits it would be great for. Would be interesting how a card scheme would affect the disabled. It would mean every institute where you want to purchase something would need to carry that. Most fast food places.. like fish and chip shops only accept cash.

The conservative party,the party of choice,unless your poor then we will tell you what to do and how to spend your pittance.