Set Pieces

[scaramanga]

So all the teams that score more corners than we do are boring? How we play and how we take corners are totally unrelated. That must be one of the biggest non-sequetors I have ever heard.

Not really. I don't want to be a team that sets up to score from set pieces, I want to be a team that sets up to score from open play. All the teams that are really good at set pieces either have one or two specialists or practice them a hell of a lot.

Please tell me the training schedule timings and I will show you how they can be expanded. Time in this context is most definitely not finite.

Do you think there's even the smallest chance that we're training less than our staff consider the optimal amount?

This kind of thing is measured, planned and executed perfectly at levels far lower than our own. If we're not training more then it's because either morale, fitness, performance or a combination of all of them would suffer.

And time is finite in any context that doesn't involve incredibly high speed or highly fluctuating gravitational force.

 

[Jordinho]

I must say I'd rather we got better at sticking the ball in the net on the first attempt than hope it takes a deflection for a corner.

 

[Pirate55]

Not really. I don't want to be a team that sets up to score from set pieces, I want to be a team that sets up to score from open play. All the teams that are really good at set pieces either have one or two specialists or practice them a hell of a lot.


Where did I say that I ONLY want us to be a team to set up to score from corners and set pieces? All I want is for our corners to be more effective.

Do you think there's even the smallest chance that we're training less than our staff consider the optimal amount?

Yes. Of course there is the SMALLEST chance. Anyone that thinks otherwise believes they are entirely infallible. I certainly don't.

This kind of thing is measured, planned and executed perfectly at levels far lower than our own. If we're not training more then it's because either morale, fitness, performance or a combination of all of them would suffer.

How can you know this with such certainty? It is by no means an exact science. Do you really believe that an extra say 30 minutes practicing corners would affect morale, fitness or performance? Or a combination? Because I most certainly don't.

Are you really happy with our return from corners? Are you even content with the way we set up from corners? Where players stand, what areas they attack, the variation and variety? To me, relatively small improvement in these areas would provide big dividends.

And time is finite in any context that doesn't involve incredibly high speed or highly fluctuating gravitational force.

I'll take your word for this. But what it has to do with how we improve our corner taking totally baffles me.

 

[Pirate55]

I must say I'd rather we got better at sticking the ball in the net on the first attempt than hope it takes a deflection for a corner.

Top marks for stating the obvious.

Notwithstanding this, I think the average is something like 6 to 7 corners on average per game. Should we just ignore these and hope for the best? From the evidence of the games so far under AVB, this seems to be the strategy at the moment unless anyone can demonstrate to me otherwise by the evidence.

 

[Baleforce]

getting better at defending them would certainly help

 

[milo]

We scored a whole three goals from corners last year - the worst of any PL team. We could hardly get worse in my opinion. We should aim at Man us 15 or Cheski' s 11. If we only got three more goals from this source - taking us up to an average of our rivals, this could turn draws into wins in three games and therefore be worth an extra six points.

How can you argue this is inconsequential. It would have been enough to secure CL in each of the last two seasons.

I'm not arguing that it is inconsequential. Shame that you ducked my questions, I am not trying to trick you, I'm interested in what improvement you think is reasonable and what we fluctuation in the stats we should expect season to season without anything changing.

 

[milo]

Top marks for stating the obvious.

Notwithstanding this, I think the average is something like 6 to 7 corners on average per game. Should we just ignore these and hope for the best? From the evidence of the games so far under AVB, this seems to be the strategy at the moment unless anyone can demonstrate to me otherwise by the evidence.

What evidence? A lack of goals from corners is not evidence in itself that we do not work on them in training. A team taking exactly the same approach to corners will not score the same number of goals from corners every season. There will always be variation in any data set. How do we know that we are just not going through a lean period that you would expect from set of stats?

 

[Pirate55]

I'm not arguing that it is inconsequential. Shame that you ducked my questions, I am not trying to trick you, I'm interested in what improvement you think is reasonable and what we fluctuation in the stats we should expect season to season without anything changing.

I am not ducking your questions. Please re read my answer in no 136.

 

[Pirate55]

What evidence? A lack of goals from corners is not evidence in itself that we do not work on them in training. A team taking exactly the same approach to corners will not score the same number of goals from corners every season. There will always be variation in any data set. How do we know that we are just not going through a lean period that you would expect from set of stats?

The evidence of my eyes tells me we have no pre prepared planning at corners. just watch the difference in the running and organisation that teams like Man Utd and Chelsea have. Is it any surprise that they score the highest at corners? is there not perhaps a direct correlation? I really can't believe that the difference can't be seen by anyone with any appreciation of football whatsoever.

What EVIDENCE can you produce that we do in fact spend any time practicing corners? You keep ducking this question.

 

[Baleforce]

I watch united a lot, what do you see in Uniteds offensive corner schemes that you think we should be doing?

 

[DubaiSpur]

I watch united a lot, what do you see in Uniteds offensive corner schemes that you think we should be doing?

Actually moving around would probably be a good start. Too often I see Daws and co. jog forwards a couple of metres and then jump early, so they're either coming off the highest point of their jumps when the ball gets to them (and thus less able to direct it towards goal) or are easily marshalled by defenders that start from a standing position but move far more effectively towards the ball than our heading crew do.

Swinging the ball into the danger area instead of into the midriff of the opposition defender on the near post (every.single.time) would also be something we could copy from United.

Our corners are a shambles. They have been for a long, long time. We cannot be going through a 'lean spell': we've changed managers and entire teams full of personnel while continuing to suffer from this. So it's not just an unlucky barren period. We are doing something stupidly wrong in training. Don't know what (perhaps scara is right, and AVB doesn't want to burden the fragile morale of our poor ickle players by giving them another half an hour of training after the regular morning sessions, poor lambs), but we need to fix it. It is ludicrous how many opportunities we squander per game from set pieces alone.

 

[Pirate55]

Actually moving around would probably be a good start. Too often I see Daws and co. jog forwards a couple of metres and then jump early, so they're either coming off the highest point of their jumps when the ball gets to them (and thus less able to direct it towards goal) or are easily marshalled by defenders that start from a standing position but move far more effectively towards the ball than our heading crew do.

Swinging the ball into the danger area instead of into the midriff of the opposition defender on the near post (every.single.time) would also be something we could copy from United.

Our corners are a shambles. They have been for a long, long time. We cannot be going through a 'lean spell': we've changed managers and entire teams full of personnel while continuing to suffer from this. So it's not just an unlucky barren period. We are doing something stupidly wrong in training. Don't know what (perhaps scara is right, and AVB doesn't want to burden the fragile morale of our poor ickle players by giving them another half an hour of training after the regular morning sessions, poor lambs), but we need to fix it. It is ludicrous how many opportunities we squander per game from set pieces alone.

=D> 100% agree.

Re United. Galeforce, did you not see Van Persies goal against Arsenal? Rooney corner, VP attacked the ball after good movement, 1-0. Three points instead of one. Last season, goals from Hernandez and Evra ( neither player hardly the tallest) came about from good movement from OTHER United players, creating space for them. A well rehearsed move. Vidic really attacks the ball with good runs from the edge of the penalty area ( like Terry).

Compare and contrast that with Dawson and Verts who just bob up and down on the six yard box, no movement, no momentum, no leap possible. Furthermore, it makes it almost impossible to find them as it takes a phenomenal ball to be delivered to both miss the first man, and be away from the keeper and all the defenders. IMO that is why we are so crap at corners. Together with a complete lack of variation.

 

[Baleforce]

I did see it, iirc a standard near post run wasn't it?

no screen, no fade, no clever business, just a good delivery and one bloke out jumping another right?

 

[billyiddo]

This is a bloody inpressive one man crusade Pirate i have to say

 

[Pirate55]

I did see it, iirc a standard near post run wasn't it?

no screen, no fade, no clever business, just a good delivery and one bloke out jumping another right?

They were playing against a zonal marking system. No screen, no fade necessary as there was no man to man marking, just good movement to get in front of the first man. Not rocket science, but when was the last time you saw one of our players do it?

 

[Pirate55]

This is a bloody inpressive one man crusade Pirate i have to say

Thanks. Just stating the obvious as far as I can see. Just really surprised others either can't or don't want to see it as a glaring weakness.

To even score ONE well worked corner more could give us two more points. The difference between EL and CL in the last two seasons. Worth maybe £40m to the club. To me it really is a no brainier.

 

[Baleforce]

They were playing against a zonal marking system. No screen, no fade necessary as there was no man to man marking, just good movement to get in front of the first man. Not rocket science, but when was the last time you saw one of our players do it?

Kaboul (i think) did it against Saudi Sportswashing Machine but the ball went far post instead

i do take your greater point that 1 goal could make a lot of difference come May

 

[billyiddo]

Thanks. Just stating the obvious as far as I can see. Just really surprised others either can't or don't want to see it as a glaring weakness.

To even score ONE well worked corner more could give us two more points. The difference between EL and CL in the last two seasons. Worth maybe £40m to the club. To me it really is a no brainier.

If we was talking about ADDITIONAL training then i don't think you'd have much opposition - but by taking time out of general training where we would effectively be losing out on work on things such as tactics and attacking/defensive play etc then i think there could be an argument made that whatever we gain in corner productivity we'd lose in other areas of our game (due to losing time on the training field)

And at this point in time i am more concerned with the teams general play than i am with scoring goals from corners, although it's obviously an area we need to improve

 

[Baleforce]

yeah i'd put this in the dotting the i's and crossing the t's section

 

[Pirate55]

There's this other team that also end in Ham that specialise in simply getting the ball into the opposition's box. I would not call them entertaining.

If we was talking about ADDITIONAL training then i don't think you'd have much opposition - but by taking time out of general training where we would effectively be losing out on work on things such as tactics and attacking/defensive play etc then i think there could be an argument made that whatever we gain in corner productivity we'd lose in other areas of our game (due to losing time on the training field)

And at this point in time i am more concerned with the teams general play than i am with scoring goals from corners, although it's obviously an area we need to improve

Try telling that bit to Scara! He seems to believe that there is a finite time for all training and that our coaches know with absolute certainty what is the absolute optimal time for EVERY training issue and that to expand this by one iota would therefore have a detrimental effect on the teams fitness, morale or performance.

Go figure :-"