Set Pieces

[milo]

But, whichever way you look at it, we are **** at corners. 3 goals in 223 attempts is just shockingly poor.

But even if we moved up to the league average we'd only be looking at another three goals a season.

I'd like to see an improvement in all areas of our game but this doesn't seem like one where concentrating on it specifically in training would bring significant rewards.

The problem with stats with such low figures is that they are very susceptible to being distorted by short streaks of form

 

[onlyme]

It's nothing to do with stats. It's to do with entertainment, pressure and excitement.

If you are troubling the opponent's defence even if you don't score you are causing panic.

 

[Pirate55]

But even if we moved up to the league average we'd only be looking at another three goals a season.

I'd like to see an improvement in all areas of our game but this doesn't seem like one where concentrating on it specifically in training would bring significant rewards.

The problem with stats with such low figures is that they are very susceptible to being distorted by short streaks of form

But the bolder it is my whole point. Even becoming "average" and scoring another three goals a season could turn draws into wins ergo, another 6 points. This would have been enough for CL qualification in each of the last three years. Hardly inconsequential when looked at in those term. Could have been worth an extra £60 m to the club. Not too shabby. Such are the fine margins at this level.

 

[milo]

But the bolder it is my whole point. Even becoming "average" and scoring another three goals a season could turn draws into wins ergo, another 6 points. This would have been enough for CL qualification in each of the last three years. Hardly inconsequential when looked at in those term. Could have been worth an extra £60 m to the club. Not too shabby. Such are the fine margins at this level.

That depends where the goals come. I'm not against us working on set pieces but I am not sure that it merits special attention, there are other points of our game that we could work on that would yield more goals and win more games.

 

[Pirate55]

That depends where the goals come. I'm not against us working on set pieces but I am not sure that it merits special attention, there are other points of our game that we could work on that would yield more goals and win more games.

Errr - Manchester Utd think it deserves special attention and remind me again where they finished last season.

We get, what, on average 5 to 10 corners a game? These are taken from exactly the same place in every game, either from the right or left. This is therefore something that can be precisely replicated in training more than any other situation in a game. Can you think of anything more straightforward and simple to work on?

 

[Jordinho]

It's nothing to do with stats. It's to do with entertainment, pressure and excitement.

If you are troubling the opponent's defence even if you don't score you are causing panic.

There's this other team that also end in Ham that specialise in simply getting the ball into the opposition's box. I would not call them entertaining.

 

[milo]

Errr - Manchester Utd think it deserves special attention and remind me again where they finished last season.

We get, what, on average 5 to 10 corners a game? These are taken from exactly the same place in every game, either from the right or left. This is therefore something that can be precisely replicated in training more than any other situation in a game. Can you think of anything more straightforward and simple to work on?

How do we know that Manchester United gave it special attention?

I'd certainly be in favour of adopting methods used by more successful teams in all areas of our game but I think that we need to be careful that we don't make assumptions about what those are.

I also think that we cannot priorities all areas of our game for improvement at the same time and that we should concentrate on areas with a higher return first.

 

[Pirate55]

How do we know that Manchester United gave it special attention?

I'd certainly be in favour of adopting methods used by more successful teams in all areas of our game but I think that we need to be careful that we don't make assumptions about what those are.

I also think that we cannot priorities all areas of our game for improvement at the same time and that we should concentrate on areas with a higher return first.

What in your opinion is a higher priority at the moment?

Surely scoring goals is THE most important issue at the moment. Corners (and dead balls generally) are An integral part of this and therefore should be prioritised. If we can get a few more goals from these sources, it could make all the difference at the end of the season.

Last weekend, remind me how Man U beat the Arsnl? Rooney CORNER, Van Persie header, 1-0. Three points instead of one.

 

[billyiddo]

It's more creation and movement in the attacking third that's the problem - goals scored is just the end result of that. Id rather we spent more time on those aspects than additional training on corners as the benefits would be greater, imv

 

[milo]

It's more creation and movement in the attacking third that's the problem - goals scored is just the end result of that. Id rather we spent more time on those aspects than additional training on corners as the benefits would be greater, imv

I agree

 

[Pirate55]

I agree

We will just have to agree to disagree then. I hope you will continue to be happy with our lack of threat at corners.

 

[milo]

We will just have to agree to disagree then. I hope you will continue to be happy with our lack of threat at corners.

What a rediculous thing to say, have you read any of my posts on this thread? I have said countless times, I would like us to see us improve all areas of our game but I think that we should priorities areas that lead to more chances and goals first. The league average last season was that only 3.11% of corners resulting in a goal (I posted a link to the stats on the pervious page). At this stage of the season and with so many new players to bed in, our first priority should be to work on open attacking play.

 

[Pirate55]

Now I'm confused. I am under the impression that you think it isn't worth practising corners because of the fact that so few result in goals. Is that correct?

Where we differ, is that, I do. Even a small improvement in this area can have big dividends at the end of the season when margins are so small.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Obviously finding a way to score bags of well crafted goals from open play would be ideal but snatching a goal from a corner can be very useful against teams who park the bus and, considering how meticulous he is, I'm sure AVB must be devising a method to make us more effective at corners...

Corner stats for 2012/13	Goals For (total awarded)	Goals Against (total conceded)	Goal Difference From Corners
ManU	15 (218)	6 (182)	+9
Chavski	11 (240)	3 (205)	+8
Emirates Marketing Project	8 (270)	6 (174)	+2
Everton	6 (257)	5 (181)	+1
Liverpool	6 (285)	6 (164)	0
L'ARSEnal	4 (260)	4 (167)	0
Spurs	3 (261)	7 (160)	-4

 

[milo]

Now I'm confused. I am under the impression that you think it isn't worth practising corners because of the fact that so few result in goals. Is that correct?

Where we differ, is that, I do. Even a small improvement in this area can have big dividends at the end of the season when margins are so small.

Of course we should work on set pieces. I just wouldn't single out corners for special attention at this stage because the likely returns are small and the difference between us and the average performers are well within the kind of fluctuations that you would expect to see with low figures.

 

[Pirate55]

Of course we should work on set pieces. I just wouldn't single out corners for special attention at this stage because the likely returns are small and the difference between us and the average performers are well within the kind of fluctuations that you would expect to see with low figures.

Hurrah. We agree on this. At last! I thought you were arguing that it was not worth practicing set pieces.

Where, I disagree with you is that I think corners ARE worth special attention as STEVEAWOL's post above amply illustrates.

 

[milo]

I think that there is a little confirmation bias coming into play in the choice of statistics that you like, P55.

A couple of questions for you.

What do you think is a realistic target of goals scored from corners per season if we dedicate more time to working on it?

How much natural fluctuation would you expect to see year on year for a team's goals from corners without any changes?

 

[Pirate55]

We scored a whole three goals from corners last year - the worst of any PL team. We could hardly get worse in my opinion. We should aim at Man us 15 or Cheski' s 11. If we only got three more goals from this source - taking us up to an average of our rivals, this could turn draws into wins in three games and therefore be worth an extra six points.

How can you argue this is inconsequential. It would have been enough to secure CL in each of the last two seasons.

 

[scaramanga]

We scored a whole three goals from corners last year - the worst of any PL team. We could hardly get worse in my opinion. We should aim at Man us 15 or Cheski' s 11. If we only got three more goals from this source - taking us up to an average of our rivals, this could turn draws into wins in three games and therefore be worth an extra six points.

How can you argue this is inconsequential. It would have been enough to secure CL in each of the last two seasons.

Aren't you one of the posters complaining that we don't play the Spurs way? That we're boring?

If so, how do you reconcile wanting to score from corners with that? It's a bit "Stoke" don't you think?

And if you're not happy about our current progression, which bit of our training schedule do we leave out to practice them more? And please don't give me any of that "time is not finite" stuff, because unless you're planning on altering the Earth's gravitational pull, it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_physics

 

[Pirate55]

Aren't you one of the posters complaining that we don't play the Spurs way? That we're boring?

If so, how do you reconcile wanting to score from corners with that? It's a bit "Stoke" don't you think?

And if you're not happy about our current progression, which bit of our training schedule do we leave out to practice them more? And please don't give me any of that "time is not finite" stuff, because unless you're planning on altering the Earth's gravitational pull, it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_physics

So all the teams that score more corners than we do are boring? How we play and how we take corners are totally unrelated. That must be one of the biggest non-sequetors I have ever heard.

Please tell me the training schedule timings and I will show you how they can be expanded. Time in this context is most definitely not finite.