Rough highlights of Prem teams' transfer windows

[JerusalemMan]

Back Donely for that role and spend all out funds on the best RWF we can get

Donley will surely be loaned out this season

 

[Lilbaz]

Donley will surely be loaned out this season

He’s off to orient.

 

[Bishop]

Lol…. Of course it is!

Also from what I can tell Ange’s tactics are not to keep a team penned in. He seems to favour transitions.

Also, as an FYI. Johnson was 89th percentile for miscontrols and 92nd percentile for ‘dispossessed’ so doesn’t really back up your theory about him losing the ball.

It depends on which stats you're trying to use. His successful takeones were at the 28th percentile (very low), so while he might not get disposed often he very rarely beats his defender. Partially because he doesn't even attempt to and when he does he fails the majority of the time.

His shot creating actions are also at the 25th percentile which supports my argument that what he actual himself does is not what leads to the assists and rather his assists and xA are a product of the system rather than his individual play.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It depends on which stats you're trying to use. His successful takeones were at the 28th percentile (very low), so while he might not get disposed often he very rarely beats his defender. Partially because he doesn't even attempt to and when he does he fails the majority of the time.

His shot creating actions are also at the 25th percentile which supports my argument that what he actual himself does is not what leads to the assists and rather his assists and xA are a product of the system rather than his individual play.

The shoe creating doesn’t work unless your passing to someone
When your CF is actually marooned in midfield … the stat doesn’t work

 

[Bishop]

The shoe creating doesn’t work unless your passing to someone
When your CF is actually marooned in midfield … the stat doesn’t work

That's intersting because Porro is in the 88th percentile for Shot creating actions despite the same striker/lack of striker.

Udogie is at 49th percentile so it isn't a case of the system favouring FBs over wingers. It's just the actual qualities of the the players specifically that we are seeing with this individual stat. Kulu who the majority feel had a poor season (I agree) largely playing the same RWF position was in the 63rd percentile for the the shot creating actions so I'm not sure I can buy the argument that a lack of a striker leads to Johnson's low numbers in this area. Even Werner who I don't rate was at the 46th percentile.

Now before you say well wingers don't get good numbers in this stat. Some comparisons.

Mbuemo (injured half of last season) 54th percentile
Bowen 63rd percentile
Saka 91st percentile
Olisse 93rd percentile
Doku 98th Percentile
Leon Bailey 93rd percentile


And Nico Williams 82 percentile.

 

[billyiddo]

The shoe creating doesn’t work unless your passing to someone
When your CF is actually marooned in midfield … the stat doesn’t work

To my recollection Johnson put in plenty of (good) balls to the danger zone over the course of the season that a genuine CF should have been attacking. If Solanke is a success I imagine he will be scoring a lot off of crosses from the right.

 

[Lilbaz]

That's intersting because Porro is in the 88th percentile for Shot creating actions despite the same striker/lack of striker.

Udogie is at 49th percentile so it isn't a case of the system favouring FBs over wingers. It's just the actual qualities of the the players specifically that we are seeing with this individual stat. Kulu who the majority feel had a poor season (I agree) largely playing the same RWF position was in the 63rd percentile for the the shot creating actions so I'm not sure I can buy the argument that a lack of a striker leads to Johnson's low numbers in this area. Even Werner who I don't rate was at the 46th percentile.

Now before you say well wingers don't get good numbers in this stat. Some comparisons.

Mbuemo (injured half of last season) 54th percentile
Bowen 63rd percentile
Saka 91st percentile
Olisse 93rd percentile
Doku 98th Percentile
Leon Bailey 93rd percentile


And Nico Williams 82 percentile.

Not disagreeing you. But just for clarification. The percentile stats are usually compared to other players, playing in the same position. In the top leagues in europe.

 

[Bishop]

R

Not disagreeing you. But just for clarification. The percentile stats are usually compared to other players, playing in the same position. In the top leagues in europe.

Thanks for that and that makes sense. Johnson is low compared to his direct team mates (Werner, Kulu, Son etc) and low relative to other players across the league in the same position.

It's funny I don't even think he's crap or anything, I'm just honest with what I see. He has holes, large ones and it seems people want to rely on specific stats not to see those holes and where they he can improve either by himself or by competition for his place.

 

[Finney Is Back]

It depends on which stats you're trying to use. His successful takeones were at the 28th percentile (very low), so while he might not get disposed often he very rarely beats his defender. Partially because he doesn't even attempt to and when he does he fails the majority of the time.

His shot creating actions are also at the 25th percentile which supports my argument that what he actual himself does is not what leads to the assists and rather his assists and xA are a product of the system rather than his individual play.

I would much rather a player had higher goal creating actions and a high XA number than a high number merely for shot creating actions. It shows that they deliver balls into dangerous areas that are likely to result in a goal.

By your analogy we could just play anyone right wing and they would have 15+ goals and assists a season in the PL.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That's intersting because Porro is in the 88th percentile for Shot creating actions despite the same striker/lack of striker.

Udogie is at 49th percentile so it isn't a case of the system favouring FBs over wingers. It's just the actual qualities of the the players specifically that we are seeing with this individual stat. Kulu who the majority feel had a poor season (I agree) largely playing the same RWF position was in the 63rd percentile for the the shot creating actions so I'm not sure I can buy the argument that a lack of a striker leads to Johnson's low numbers in this area. Even Werner who I don't rate was at the 46th percentile.

Now before you say well wingers don't get good numbers in this stat. Some comparisons.

Mbuemo (injured half of last season) 54th percentile
Bowen 63rd percentile
Saka 91st percentile
Olisse 93rd percentile
Doku 98th Percentile
Leon Bailey 93rd percentile


And Nico Williams 82 percentile.

And look who they are supplying
They had a target To hit
They had Watkins who scored,
they had mateta (check the xg chain stats) for palace and Olise
Haaland, Haivertz amongst others
Not sure who bowen was hitting TBH

Isn’t Porros and Udogies percentile based on defenders?

kulu played as many game centrally as he did wide

I’d fully expect wingers to get good numbers… it’s huge part of their job. Passing to others. But is the others are in the wrong place… it falls down.

Saw it with Werner and Johnson loads. Also saw son making runs and midfield not even passing. Basics

This shows the guys creative…

 

[Bishop]

I would much rather a player had higher goal creating actions and a high XA number than a high number merely for shot creating actions. It shows that they deliver balls into dangerous areas that are likely to result in a goal.

By your analogy we could just play anyone right wing and they would have 15+ goals and assists a season in the PL.

I think there is an argument to be made that yes any reasonably competent wide player would get goals and assists in our system. The system puts a big emphasis on the attack and numbers of players being in specific areas in specific automations.

All I'm saying is imagine a player player better than Werner and Johnson at successfully taking their man on and creating shot actions. They would have more opportunities to deliver balls into dangerous areas. Neither player are good in those areas, not to my eye nor now when you've made me look at the stats.

 

[parklane1]

I think we have to remember that he is only 23 and still growing as a player, now i am not saying he will ever be a world beater but i do believe he is still growing/maturing as a player and i do expect he will improve as he get older.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think there is an argument to be made that yes any reasonably competent wide player would get goals and assists in our system. The system puts a big emphasis on the attack and numbers of players being in specific areas in specific automations.

All I'm saying is imagine a player player better than Werner and Johnson at successfully taking their man on and creating shot actions. They would have more opportunities to deliver balls into dangerous areas. Neither player are good in those areas, not to my eye nor now when you've made me look at the stats.

Fully agree about the system
It repeatedly failed last year when our CF wasn’t in the right place for those assists leading to dead passes

Great video about why we signed Solanke in the solanke thread with heat maps and stats for every geeks. Shows that son was not in the right area that Ange balls needs for the system to work. That affects wide play

 

[Bishop]

And look who they are supplying
They had a target To hit
They had Watkins who scored,
they had mateta (check the xg chain stats) for palace and Olise
Haaland, Haivertz amongst others
Not sure who bowen was hitting TBH

Isn’t Porros and Udogies percentile based on defenders?

kulu played as many game centrally as he did wide

I’d fully expect wingers to get good numbers… it’s huge part of their job. Passing to others. But is the others are in the wrong place… it falls down.

Saw it with Werner and Johnson loads. Also saw son making runs and midfield not even passing. Basics

This shows the guys creative…

View attachment 17508

I've never seen a number of assists as a proof of creativity. It's a sign of efficiency and possibly final third quality. Assists don't tell us the what part the player played in the creation of the attack or the ingenuity if any involved. Nor do they tell us how important they well to the very generation of the goal beyond the fact they played the final pass. We've all seen goals where the assist itself is a much smaller part in the creation of a goal. So for me and assist alone doesn't prove or disprove creativity. You need to watch the play see what part they actually played, how difficult was their role etc.

You're stretching thing regarding the striker issue again. Havetz played as a False 9 and occupied the box even less than Son did, yet Saka for the SCA that he did. Johnson lack of takeones and low SCA is not due to Son, Richarlison or anyone else. That's his game, that how he plays.

I said I think he can improve but I think he needs to I prove to ultimately justify his position in an ever improving and demanding squad.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think we have to remember that he is only 23 and still growing as a player, now i am not saying he will ever be a world beater but i do believe he is still growing/maturing as a player and i do expect he will improve as he get older.

Absolutely, and growing into a new side at a bigger club with different players. Solanke being here now will help, another pre season will have helped, another year under Ange and knowing what he wants.....will have helped. I can accept what he brings to the side without him having to look like Messi doing it

He is fine, people are over playing the negatives, its the Spurs way with our fans to do that these days

 

[Finney Is Back]

I've never seen a number of assists as a proof of creativity. It's a sign of efficiency and possibly final third quality. Assists don't tell us the what part the player played in the creation of the attack or the ingenuity if any involved. Nor do they tell us how important they well to the very generation of the goal beyond the fact they played the final pass. We've all seen goals where the assist itself is a much smaller part in the creation of a goal. So for me and assist alone doesn't prove or disprove creativity. You need to watch the play see what part they actually played, how difficult was their role etc.

You're stretching thing regarding the striker issue again. Havetz played as a False 9 and occupied the box even less than Son did, yet Saka for the SCA that he did. Johnson lack of takeones and low SCA is not due to Son, Richarlison or anyone else. That's his game, that how he plays.

I said I think he can improve but I think he needs to I prove to ultimately justify his position in an ever improving and demanding squad.

Shot creating action means very little IMO…. A pass to a player who then has a low probability shot from outside the box isn’t something I would care about. Expected assists is a great metric as it details good quality chances.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I've never seen a number of assists as a proof of creativity. It's a sign of efficiency and possibly final third quality. Assists don't tell us the what part the player played in the creation of the attack or the ingenuity if any involved. Nor do they tell us how important they well to the very generation of the goal beyond the fact they played the final pass. We've all seen goals where the assist itself is a much smaller part in the creation of a goal. So for me and assist alone doesn't prove or disprove creativity. You need to watch the play see what part they actually played, how difficult was their role etc.

You're stretching thing regarding the striker issue again. Havetz played as a False 9 and occupied the box even less than Son did, yet Saka for the SCA that he did. Johnson lack of takeones and low SCA is not due to Son, Richarlison or anyone else. That's his game, that how he plays.

I said I think he can improve but I think he needs to I prove to ultimately justify his position in an ever improving and demanding squad.

I just used haivertz
They had many many men in the box frequently as targets
We didn’t
Johnson’s game is get to the line and hit the ball across. Or get in the other end of the same thing.
It works
We saw it work brilliantly
But … but if your crossing to where someone should be and they ain’t… your system fails

If your image was specifically when both players played as CF I’d be intrigued. I don’t think it is

But again a successful pass works if the guy is there. If Haivertz goes in the box 3 times and is passed too every time, that’s a hundred %. If son goes in ten times but gets it twice it’s 20%

The solanke video done by a stats guy really highlights this and the issues. It also shows exactly why Johnson can work with a proper CF irrelevant of doing flicks, tricks or anything else other than the basics because sokanke stays in the box

 

[RunTMC]

I've never seen a number of assists as a proof of creativity. It's a sign of efficiency and possibly final third quality. Assists don't tell us the what part the player played in the creation of the attack or the ingenuity if any involved. Nor do they tell us how important they well to the very generation of the goal beyond the fact they played the final pass. We've all seen goals where the assist itself is a much smaller part in the creation of a goal. So for me and assist alone doesn't prove or disprove creativity. You need to watch the play see what part they actually played, how difficult was their role etc.

You're stretching thing regarding the striker issue again. Havetz played as a False 9 and occupied the box even less than Son did, yet Saka for the SCA that he did. Johnson lack of takeones and low SCA is not due to Son, Richarlison or anyone else. That's his game, that how he plays.

I said I think he can improve but I think he needs to I prove to ultimately justify his position in an ever improving and demanding squad.

Son’s heat map, the guy’s allergic to the 6 yard box!

I imagine his heat map looks like that because he played a fair few games on the left. Have to admit I’m surprised by Havertz, the few times I watched Arsenal he seemed a lot more central but this graphic suggests otherwise. Do you have his full season map similar to Son? This one shows just 1 game

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Shot creating action means very little IMO…. A pass to a player who then has a low probability shot from outside the box isn’t something I would care about. Expected assists is a great metric as it details good quality chances.

Unless it’s son outside the box and in space.. that’s a great chance
But not Ange ball and bloody unique

 

[Bishop]

Shot creating action means very little IMO…. A pass to a player who then has a low probability shot from outside the box isn’t something I would care about. Expected assists is a great metric as it details good quality chances.

Expected assists just details who played the last pass and the likely hood of that being a good chance. Which again for me is more about the system we play as opposed to the individual creativity or ingenuity of Johnson in particular.o Johnson is ok in the system, but a better quality of player in terms of takeones especially would likely significantly increase the number of chances created and that's my point. We have two of lowest wide players

Under Conte or Jose i'd agree that it would be a useful stat given how little systemic play we actually had.

Son’s heat map, the guy’s allergic to the 6 yard box!

I imagine his heat map looks like that because he played a fair few games on the left. Have to admit I’m surprised by Havertz, the few times I watched Arsenal he seemed a lot more central but this graphic suggests otherwise. Do you have his full season map similar to Son? This one shows just 1 game

Dunno why it was showing just one game, here is his PL season. More box action but its not that dissimilar to Son and not enough to go from 93rd percentile sca to 25th percentile.




@Bedfordspurs Could we have had a striker attacking the box more? Hell yeah, but could we also have wide players better at getting past their man? A resounding yes to that too. I don't know why we want to settle and only improve in one area when there are many areas to improve to get to the ultimate goal.