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Repetitive bickering and point scoring about money and our transfer policy

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

@ArcspacE

I get what you're saying about transitional seasons. Arsenal have been in transition for the last 2-3 seasons, they have still obtained their goals.

What annoys me is people still defend Levy even when we fail to sign players at the 11th hour when we've had weeks/months to get deals done. It's ok because we were in the hunt for these players. Surely the club must have some idea of players' wage demands before they officially approach them? Would certain people not sound out agents or the player himself? The fact is, we don't know what happens in training, which is why managers sometimes pick players, and yet that doesn't stop people judging. Don't see why it's different for Levy. And frankly, it's a bit tiresome reading about he's the sole reason were a top 6 side these days, the managers and players don't get nearly as much credit as Levy.

Levy get's the praise/blame for our overall improvement/failings during his time here.

managers/coaches get the praise/blame for the short term successes or failures during their time.

under Levy we have come a long way, not sure how that can be contested - should we hang him out to dry for a couple of imperfections when overall we have improved as a club both on and off the pitch dramatically under his guidance? that's not to say he shouldn't get criticism when he fudges things up - but for me, personally speaking and i assume others as well, if the overall picture is one of growth and stability then it needs to be in perspective of that.
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

In the past two seasons he hasnt spent, but before that he was spending on bad players... In both case its not what I want.

He has spent.

Have you seen our wage bill?

Were you aware that we have just built a new, £45 million training base and that we are in the process of undertaking a £450 million stadium project?
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

We lost Modric, VdV and our captain, we changed our manager and brought in 4-5 new players that became regular starters.

I don't see that as comparable to Redknapp's first full season in charge at all. At that point he had already had over half a season with the team, a transfer window to get and half a season to bed in Defoe, Palacios and Keane.

Jol getting Replaced with Ramos and us selling Keane and Berbatov took place over two seasons, but assuming that all of that happened in summer of '08 I suppose it would be comparable to what AVB had to deal with this summer. We all remember how that turned out, if that situation is comparable to what AVB has had to deal with this season when it comes to transitions then surely the results speak for themselves in comparison.

So everything is down to this transitional season you seem to have constructed? AVB lost 1 key player and the other one he pretty much told he'd be a squad player anyway. All other incoming player were imrpovements - as opposed to selling a 50 goal/season strike partnership. Or in other words - the two scenarios as incomparable

Ancelotti achieved his objectives in his first transitional season in charge - is it unfrai to expect similar from AVB?
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

He has spent.

Have you seen our wage bill?

Were you aware that we have just built a new, £45 million training base and that we are in the process of undertaking a £450 million stadium project?


but that's all boring long term stuff that we can't see instant results from. . .
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

So everything is down to this transitional season you seem to have constructed? AVB lost 1 key player and the other one he pretty much told he'd be a squad player anyway. All other incoming player were imrpovements - as opposed to selling a 50 goal/season strike partnership. Or in other words - the two scenarios as incomparable

Ancelotti achieved his objectives in his first transitional season in charge - is it unfrai to expect similar from AVB?


Avb's seasonal objectives in my mind are to challenge for Champions League football. So he is achieving them.
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

I said we were underachieving under Levy, and you said we've beaten our point records this season...But that is his own record.

Have you had a look at the football being played? No technique, cant keep the ball, awful passing..

If it wasnt for Bale, where would we be?

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

We do have Bale.
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

I have criticized the strategy of our scouting system (and in particular the lack of a DOF/head of scouting), but I have to point out that in terms of financial firepower we are substantially closer to Saudi Sportswashing Machine than to Man Utd, Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea, Arsenal (now that they are nearly out of their "sensitive" period), and Liverpool. That's five clubs that can spend far more on wages than we can, and wages present by the far the greatest correlation to league position in the long term (ref: Soccernomics iirc). You could argue that super management and good scouting (see: Everton) can make up much of this gap, but there is a substantial difference between just being a little behind (eg. Swansea vs Everton), and being so far behind that you can spend only a fifth of what they can. We are lightyears behind the Manc clubs and Chelsea in terms of spending power, while Arse and Liverpool can spend twice as much as us on wages. It is somewhat miraculous that we have even been competing with them for the last three years.

Look at what is happening to Dortmund, in a fairer (well, less ridiculous) league. Most of us acknowledge that they have an incredible set-up and a good manager who has been given time and a conveyer belt of talented young players. They represent the ideal model for success in my eyes. Yet even they are being dismantled by the ONE behemoth in their league, while we have at least three in ours. In the long term, as proven in every single league, the only thing players care about is money. And when the financial gaps are big enough, when the system is unequal enough, the order of things becomes very predictable. It's like modern warfare in the post-atomic age - without ethical restraints, the nation that wins is the one with the most wealth, the best technology, and the greatest productive power. There is no room for the romantic notions we have of a swordsman's talent, or a tactician's genius, or a people's character. There is no room in modern football for the things we associate with human values like loyalty or cleverness or integrity. These must be preserved by the fans.

I'm not saying we should lay down and give up - hell, I think the "purpose of humanity", cliche as it is, is to refuse to give up in a fundamentally unjust world - but I think everything needs to be placed in context. Levy's ability can only go so far against an entire culture driven by money. Hans-Joachim Watzke, Dortmund's chairman, can only do so much against the reality of football as a business. Otherwise, there would be far more clubs with our stories - holding our own against clubs with vastly more pull and more resources for year upon year - because quite frankly there are a lot of smart people out there studying what the successful people are doing. (Southampton's chairman, Nicola Cortese, might be called the more Mafia-sounding version of Levy.)

I think there is plenty of criticism that is justified, but we have to keep in mind the valid criticism of every other chairman and set-up in this league. Every single club's fans are dissatisfied with their own in some way (oftentimes in ways that sound ridiculously harsh to the outsider). I am still grateful to be in this position, while acknowledging there are ways we could improve.
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

I said we were underachieving under Levy, and you said we've beaten our point records this season...But that is his own record.

Have you had a look at the football being played? No technique, cant keep the ball, awful passing..

If it wasnt for Bale, where would we be?


Ah that makes sense, well Levy doing better than previously, yet still not well enough?


If we did not have Bale, We would be in an alternate universe.
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

So everything is down to this transitional season you seem to have constructed? AVB lost 1 key player and the other one he pretty much told he'd be a squad player anyway. All other incoming player were imrpovements - as opposed to selling a 50 goal/season strike partnership. Or in other words - the two scenarios as incomparable

Ancelotti achieved his objectives in his first transitional season in charge - is it unfrai to expect similar from AVB?

No, it's not all down to that. Because I'm not using it as a fudging excuse. And it's not something I've constructed, it's a part of the description of our season, I wasn't even the one who brought it up in this thread, it's something I think quite a few people would agree described the situation AVB was in quite well.

His objectives at the start of the season seemed to either be to get CL qualification or to be there or thereabouts fighting for CL qualification at the end of the season. Some people on here also said that they would be happy with 5th all things considered.

If he has failed he has only done so by a slim margin.

------------------------

Did you see my post on the previous page where I asked you to retract one of your previous statements?
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Not really - he makes reference in every second interview and so do the players

Hugo's interview from earlier this week was rather telling. As was Parker's some time back
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Well how about all the bad managers he signed?

Hate to state the obvious, but the players are the ones who go on the pitch and do the business. Managers are the ones who have to get the best out of those players. I don't see the Glazers getting all of the credit for United's success.

I would prefer we tried to sign players earlier maybe. Levy's methods are to be admired in a sense, but they can also backfire as other clubs may be reluctant to do business with us. Didn't we try and lowball Lyon after they accepted a bid for Lloris?

Seriously.......you want to use that as your analogy? It's not obvious why a family that has taken £500 million out of their club over the past 8 years doesn't receive credit? It's not obvious that the reasons why Man Utd are successful have little to do with the Glazers and almost everything to do with what was already in place before they got there?

Not your finest hour, mate!
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Seriously.......you want to use that as your analogy? It's not obvious why a family that has taken £500 million out of their club over the past 8 years doesn't receive credit? It's not obvious that the reasons why Man Utd are successful have little to do with the Glazers and almost everything to do with what was already in place before they got there?

Not your finest hour, mate!


Glazers are a flawed analogy to Levy, they are the Joe Lewis of our club..
 
Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Every start of the season we lose 6/7 points because we're not ready. We buy too late. Top clubs dont do that. And we pay it at the end of the season.


considering we aren't on a level with United Chelsea and City (or even Arsenal) i don't think we can claim to be a 'top club' at the moment - until we can compete on a financial level with them on a consistent basis then we are firmly in the 'best of the rest' category and operating at that level means we need to go about our business in a different way. you can't seriously be holding our transfer operations up to those of clubs with far greater financial clout and asking why we are doing things differently to them?
 
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Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Levy get's the praise/blame for our overall improvement/failings during his time here.

managers/coaches get the praise/blame for the short term successes or failures during their time.

under Levy we have come a long way, not sure how that can be contested - should we hang him out to dry for a couple of imperfections when overall we have improved as a club both on and off the pitch dramatically under his guidance? that's not to say he shouldn't get criticism when he fudges things up - but for me, personally speaking and i assume others as well, if the overall picture is one of growth and stability then it needs to be in perspective of that.

He deserves praise for being partly responsible for where we are today. The big thing for me is, what are Levy's/Enic's long term plans for the club. Do they have the nous or whatever adjective you care to describe to take us to the next level. I get that things may stall a bit for the next few years until the stadium is built, but will Levy prepared to take a gamble on a striker for example? Even if the price is slightly higher than we would normally pay?
 
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