Repetitive bickering and point scoring about money and our transfer policy

[ArcspacE]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

My point is that you get a much better idea of how much money the club has had available to spend in addition to what has been spent by looking at the financial reports or the analysis of the financial reports than you get from looking at the net spend on some site like transfermarkt.

So, having analysed our last report - how much do you think we have available for spending? Can you gives a round figure?

 

[charlietheyid]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Well no, of course he's not. He's just stating that he thinks it is nonsensical. That is his opinion. Is he no longer allowed to have an opinion?


Levy doesn't get everything right. That's clear as day to see. However blaming him for money that he has not spent, that he may not even have is a reasonable point of debate.

In the past two seasons he hasnt spent, but before that he was spending on bad players... In both case its not what I want.

 

[charlietheyid]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

There's only 4 places up for grabs, who out of Utd, Arsenal, City, Chelsea and Liverpool do you think we should have been finishing above on a regular basis? Bare in mind when Levy took over we were pretty much in the position Villa are in now.

Think I asked the question last month when the Levy criticism came up but wasn't answered then, because to me your line of criticism seems completely non sensical.

I am not saying we should be competing on a regular basis.

I am just looking at the results and they are not good overall. We cant get past the quarter finals in Europe, against clubs we should be beating. We're not getting anywhere in the Fa cup either.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

I am not saying we should be competing on a regular basis.

I am just looking at the results and they are not good overall. We cant get past the quarter finals in Europe, against clubs we should be beating. We're not getting anywhere in the Fa cup either.

Record high points for the club in the PL after 35 games.


'not good overall'...

:-k

 

[ArcspacE]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Example of me acting like a politician, blaming everything on something outside the club.

Good enough for what exactly?

Are you really asking me that if we don't reach our goals if our players or our manager isn't good enough might be an explanation for that?

If so, yes. But once again, what's your point? This seems pretty obvious.

It seems to me that we're doing quite well. 65 points after 35 games is our best total at this point of a season ever in the PL era I think I read in a thread here.

You don't think this has been a transitional season? If not, same question to you as to the previous poster. What has been a better example of a transitional season (somewhat recently). If it has in fact been a transitional season what is so wrong about describing the season as such, or even to use that to explain some of the things we've seen this season?

Jol / Ramos / Berbatov / Keane 07/08

Ramos / Arry / Shambles / 08/09

Arry - first proper season 09/10


Good enough in some of the performances we've seen this season? Style / type of play / tactical preparation / subsitutions / squad selection (practically throwing EL away with his Brad stubborness, etc etc.

Good enough in the transfer market - both selling and buying

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

@ArcspacE

I get what you're saying about transitional seasons. Arsenal have been in transition for the last 2-3 seasons, they have still obtained their goals.

What annoys me is people still defend Levy even when we fail to sign players at the 11th hour when we've had weeks/months to get deals done. It's ok because we were in the hunt for these players. Surely the club must have some idea of players' wage demands before they officially approach them? Would certain people not sound out agents or the player himself? The fact is, we don't know what happens in training, which is why managers sometimes pick players, and yet that doesn't stop people judging. Don't see why it's different for Levy. And frankly, it's a bit tiresome reading about he's the sole reason were a top 6 side these days, the managers and players don't get nearly as much credit as Levy.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

There is ZERO proof we were Club B when it came to Moutinho last year or that is the reason why he didn't sign

Make believe stuff again - remarkable spin

This conversation has carried over from another thread, one you took part in. I made it clear previously that I saw the money up front thing with Moutinho only as one potential explanation for the collapse of the Moutinho deal. I'm not going to repeat these things every post in an ongoing discussion, we were obviously talking about a hypothetical situation.

I'm not claiming that this is what happened. It's not an attempted spin. KD asked for a simple view, I attempted to answer him with a simple example of how a club could make a bid while it's still true that this club doesn't have a lot of money.

Since you used the word "again" I would like you to either mention at least one time where I posted something that was make belief as if it was fact or I would like you to retract what you said.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

@ArcspacE

I get what you're saying about transitional seasons. Arsenal have been in transition for the last 2-3 seasons, they have still obtained their goals.

What annoys me is people still defend Levy even when we fail to sign players at the 11th hour when we've had weeks/months to get deals done. It's ok because we were in the hunt for these players. Surely the club must have some idea of players' wage demands before they officially approach them? Would certain people not sound out agents or the player himself? The fact is, we don't know what happens in training, which is why managers sometimes pick players, and yet that doesn't stop people judging. Don't see why it's different for Levy. And frankly, it's a bit tiresome reading about he's the sole reason were a top 6 side these days, the managers and players don't get nearly as much credit as Levy.

Well, when you are the guy that bought and hired those managers and players, you are the reason they are there so logically he does get the credit..

Would you prefer it if we did not try and sign players at the eleventh hour? Eleventh hour signings have been quite good for Spurs over the past couple of years. I doubt it's the wage demands that hold them up, more likely it's the opposing club's demands, or Levy's demands.

Having weeks/months doesn't always help. Every club does it, it's not just us. The only ones to sort all their transfers before the last couple of days consistently are United, Chelsea (not even them to some extent) and City.

 

[charlietheyid]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Record high points for the club in the PL after 35 games.


'not good overall'...

:-k

But thats his own records... And we're 5th today!

 

[ArcspacE]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Again - as in 'yet another Levy discussion' based on speculative transfer deals and media information - don't be so sensitive

 

[Spursalot]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

But thats his own records... And we're 5th today!

Er.. It's not AVB's record. It's Tottenham Hotspur's record...


So what if we're fifth today? Doing better than Spurs have done in a PL season to date isn't noteworthy?

 

[charlietheyid]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Every start of the season we lose 6/7 points because we're not ready. We buy too late. Top clubs dont do that. And we pay it at the end of the season.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

At the end of the day, what counts is the result. One champions league tour since hes the chairman is very very poor. That has to be blamed on a poor choice of managers and poor investments. I cant say much more than that.

You completely ignore context.

Context is key.

If Levy had taken over a club that was thriving; if there had been no great competition; if other clubs hadn't won the oil lottery; and if he had still taken us to only one Champions League campaign in all that time, then you would have a valid point.

But he didn't take over a thriving club, did he? He took over a club that had finished as high as 7th only once in Sugar's decade. In every other season under Sugar, Spurs were either mired in mid table or fighting against relegation. Morale amongst staff, throughout the club, was rock bottom. The club was viewed as something of a joke or an irrelevance by the football world. Just another Premier League also ran.

And there was competition, wasn't there? Competition from clubs with vastly bigger budgets than Spurs because those clubs had seized the opportunities offered by the nascent Premier League and the even newer Champions League. Those clubs were stuck in a virtuous circle while all the rest were locked out. They had more money so they could buy and pay more players; better players. So they won more. And earned more. And could therefore buy yet more better players.

And then, of course, there was Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project. Yep.........Levy's a right **** for not being able to outspend them and buy silverware, eh?

...................

Levy has made many mistakes, certainly. Some bad ones among them. Some which have infuriated me. Some which have frustrated. But anyone who was ever a success made plenty of mistakes. What matters is what he has achieved on balance.

And, on balance, I think he's done an excellent job.

From being perennial mid table / relegation battlers to perennial 3rd / 4th / 5th challengers. From joke / irrelevant club to respected / feared club. All this against the background of a far from level playing field.

Context.

 

[charlietheyid]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Er.. It's not AVB's record. It's Tottenham Hotspur's record...


So what if we're fifth today? Doing better than Spurs have done in a PL season to date isn't noteworthy?

I said we were underachieving under Levy, and you said we've beaten our point records this season...But that is his own record.

Have you had a look at the football being played? No technique, cant keep the ball, awful passing..

If it wasnt for Bale, where would we be?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Well, when you are the guy that bought and hired those managers and players, you are the reason they are there so logically he does get the credit..

Would you prefer it if we did not try and sign players at the eleventh hour? Eleventh hour signings have been quite good for Spurs over the past couple of years. I doubt it's the wage demands that hold them up, more likely it's the opposing club's demands, or Levy's demands.

Having weeks/months doesn't always help. Every club does it, it's not just us. The only ones to sort all their transfers before the last couple of days consistently are United, Chelsea (not even them to some extent) and City.

Well how about all the bad managers he signed?

Hate to state the obvious, but the players are the ones who go on the pitch and do the business. Managers are the ones who have to get the best out of those players. I don't see the Glazers getting all of the credit for United's success.

I would prefer we tried to sign players earlier maybe. Levy's methods are to be admired in a sense, but they can also backfire as other clubs may be reluctant to do business with us. Didn't we try and lowball Lyon after they accepted a bid for Lloris?

 

[jimmyb]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Just fyi - I'm not pro or anti - Levy - I'm pro - fair/objective 'treatment' of anyone, including the main man

There are numerous aspects in which I believe he can improve (our scouting especially) but it often seems to me there is an accepted truth on here which renders any 'questions' towards him equal to heresy and assault. He's not above the rim, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm delighted to hear it.

Now, instead of throwing labels around like confetti, it would be far more helpful if you could accept that that's what everyone else is doing too.

 

[charlietheyid]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

You completely ignore context.

Context is key.

If Levy had taken over a club that was thriving; if there had been no great competition; if other clubs hadn't won the oil lottery; and if he had still taken us to only one Champions League campaign in all that time, then you would have a valid point.

But he didn't take over a thriving club, did he? He took over a club that had finished as high as 7th only once in Sugar's decade. In every other season under Sugar, Spurs were either mired in mid table or fighting against relegation. Morale amongst staff, throughout the club, was rock bottom. The club was viewed as something of a joke or an irrelevance by the football world. Just another Premier League also ran.

And there was competition, wasn't there? Competition from clubs with vastly bigger budgets than Spurs because those clubs had seized the opportunities offered by the nascent Premier League and the even newer Champions League. Those clubs were stuck in a virtuous circle while all the rest were locked out. They had more money so they could buy and pay more players; better players. So they won more. And earned more. And could therefore buy yet more better players.

And then, of course, there was Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project. Yep.........Levy's a right **** for not being able to outspend them and buy silverware, eh?

...................

Levy has made many mistakes, certainly. Some bad ones among them. Some which have infuriated me. Some which have frustrated. But anyone who was ever a success made plenty of mistakes. What matters is what he has achieved on balance.

And, on balance, I think he's done an excellent job.

From being perennial mid table / relegation battlers to perennial 3rd / 4th / 5th challengers. From joke / irrelevant club to respected / feared club. All this against the background of a far from level playing field.

Context.

Feared? Of Bale maybe. Everybody knows we cant start and finish seasons.

On the balance we have not achieved anything so far. Nothing. So you might be happy, but I want us to finish above arsenal, just ones or is that asking too much?

 

[Spursalot]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Well how about all the bad managers he signed?

Hate to state the obvious, but the players are the ones who go on the pitch and do the business. Managers are the ones who have to get the best out of those players. I don't see the Glazers getting all of the credit for United's success.

I would prefer we tried to sign players earlier maybe. Levy's methods are to be admired in a sense, but they can also backfire as other clubs may be reluctant to do business with us. Didn't we try and lowball Lyon after they accepted a bid for Lloris?

The bad managers he signed were also his fault, nobody has said they're not. If you're giving him credit for the bad ones, you have to for the good ones though.


Well no. That's obvious though. The Glazers don't get the credit for Man United's success because United were successful to this extent before the Glazers took over.

Also the Glazers are the owners, not the chairman.


I have no idea what happened in the Lloris case, I thought the 'Lowball' story was just speculation and ITK's on here at the time.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

Jol / Ramos / Berbatov / Keane 07/08

Ramos / Arry / Shambles / 08/09

Arry - first proper season 09/10


Good enough in some of the performances we've seen this season? Style / type of play / tactical preparation / subsitutions / squad selection (practically throwing EL away with his Brad stubborness, etc etc.

Good enough in the transfer market - both selling and buying

We lost Modric, VdV and our captain, we changed our manager and brought in 4-5 new players that became regular starters.

I don't see that as comparable to Redknapp's first full season in charge at all. At that point he had already had over half a season with the team, a transfer window to get and half a season to bed in Defoe, Palacios and Keane.

Jol getting Replaced with Ramos and us selling Keane and Berbatov took place over two seasons, but assuming that all of that happened in summer of '08 I suppose it would be comparable to what AVB had to deal with this summer. We all remember how that turned out, if that situation is comparable to what AVB has had to deal with this season when it comes to transitions then surely the results speak for themselves in comparison.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: **Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

It's a wonder that with all these poor managerial appointments how we have mostly improved from each one to the next, steadily improving our standing as a premier league club at the same time.

One Champions League season is far away from being very very poor when you consider the established clubs or new money clubs that have resources that dwarf ours that we need to over take in order to qualify. Arsenal, the closest club to us in terms of finances have a wage bill 150% of ours. The fact we're in a position to be dissapointed at finishing below them speaks well of just how far we have come in his time here.

Indeed.

Time was when they were accustomed to celebrating their beloved "St Totteringham" in February or March.