Quacks & Pseudoscience

[JPBB]

You are deflecting away from the issue of vaccine damage by making the discussion about Wakefield. That is what people do who refuse to accept that vaccination damage is a thing.

I have spoken hundreds of parents of vaccination damaged kids (accepting the fact you say they are all liars), they are saddened that you continue Wakefield as a justification to deny that vaccine damage exists.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

You are deflecting away from the issue of vaccine damage by making the discussion about Wakefield. That is what people do who refuse to accept that vaccination damage is a thing.

I have spoken hundreds of parents of vaccination damaged kids (accepting the fact you say they are all liars), they are saddened that you continue Wakefield as a justification to deny that vaccine damage exists.

In my response I actually attempted to take the discussion away from Wakefield by pointing out that anyone who could show a link between vaccination and autism then develop an alternative would soon be part of Big Pharma as Big Pharma would pay big money for the rights. Fact is that there is no need for an alternative until a time where evidence suggests it is needed.

By the way. You brought Wakefield into the discussion by posting his film! But anyway....

You need to define vaccine damage. I don't think anyone on here is denying that there can be side effects of varying complications from vaccines. This is exactly the same as any other drug.

You need to define vaccine damage before moving any further with your argument.

 

[JPBB]

Cases of what? According to the CDC there were 2 cases of diphtheria between 2004 and 2015.

http://www.cdc.gov/diphtheria/clinicians.html

I am getting so excited by all of this, I didn't read your message properly. I am sorry.

I was referring to Whooping cough.

CDCs own figures say

The increase in reported pertussis first noted in the 1980s continued throughout the 1990s Compared with surveillance data for 1994–1996, the pertussis incidence rate among adolescents and adults has increased, 62% and 60%, respectively.

And the reason (from the CDC again)

The high numbers have been attributed in part to a possible resistance of the pertussis bacterium against the booster and vaccine.

So you have a vaccine that in part you don't need (Diptheria) and in part doesn't work (whooping cough) but you do get lots of terrible side effects. (DTaP is the most dangerous of all vaccines.)

Surely it is worth asking some questions about it?

 

[scaramanga]

Well before 1950 crib death was almost unheard of. Then we starting pumping them full of brick as you say. Crib death was rising rapidly. So a study was done and they found this...

“Because diphtheria and tetanus toxoids pertussis (DTP) vaccine is routinely given during the period of highest incidence of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), this study was undertaken to determine if there is a temporal association between DTP immunization and SIDS. Parents of 145 SIDS victims who died in Los Angeles County between January 1, 1979, and August 23, 1980, were contacted and interviewed regarding their child’s recent immunization history. Fifty-three had received a DTP immunization. Of these 53, 27 had received a DTP immunization within 28 days of death. Six SIDS deaths occurred within 24 hours and 17 occurred within 1 week of DTP immunization.”

And they quite rightly concluded that they had all been hit by meteorites. (as Scara rightly says is the most rational explanation).

You do realise that since 1991 SIDS and DTP immunisation have an inverse correlation, right?

 

[JPBB]

Well, I would have thought so.

They withdrew DTP in the late 80s early 90s because whilst it was good at stopping whooping cough, it was so fudging dangerous that even the CDC had to concede it was unsafe.

They replaced it with DTaP which is not very good at stopping Whooping cough (see previous post) but still has an impressive track record of fudging up and killing babies.

 

[scaramanga]

Well, I would have thought so.

They withdrew DTP in the late 80s early 90s because whilst it was good at stopping whooping cough, it was so fudgeing dangerous that even the CDC had to concede it was unsafe.

They replaced it with DTaP which is not very good at stopping Whooping cough (see previous post) but still has an impressive track record of fudgeing up and killing babies.

Care to quantify that with real numbers?

 

[milo]

Wakefield is the most famous (and reviled) scientist in the World. What did he do? He didn't get permission to use some kids blood samples in a study. Not great, I agree. But not deserving of his reputation as the most dangerous scientist in the World.

His real crime was to dare to challenge the status quo on vaccines. And now the NHS, CDC and Big Pharma has him in the same bracket as Mengele and being responsible for the deaths of millions of kids.

It was a bit more than that. He was shoving endoscopes up their arses and puncturing their spines. And his study was flawed by design.

Given that it was a flawed study, with questionable ethics, has been withdrawn by the journal where it was published, no one has been able to replicate the results and the author reprimanded by the General Medical Council. I do not understand why you would put more weight on it than the thousands of other studies that show no link and have been corroborated.

 

[milo]

I won't go that far but I can understand why you have that opinion.

The conspiracy would have to be that big or the clear evidence if the damage caused by vaccines, that you say exists, would be public knowledge and accepted by the scientific community. For what you say to be true, there has to be hundreds of thousands of people across multiple countries, in a variety of different professions colluding to keep it quiet. And to what end?

 

[JPBB]

The conspiracy would have to be that big or the clear evidence if the damage caused by vaccines, that you say exists, would be public knowledge and accepted by the scientific community. For what you say to be true, there has to be hundreds of thousands of people across multiple countries, in a variety of different professions colluding to keep it quiet. And to what end?

You say there is a conspiracy. I don't. I say people are too scared to speak out.

You are putting words in my mouth. Same ol' same ol'

As a current example Dr Sears wrote a letter to a parent advising against future vaccination after an adverse reaction. The pro vaxxers, pharma and the medical establishment want him struck off. And harass him in the press. He is the new Wakefield.

A baby in Washington suffers two cardiac arrests after DTaP. Fortunately the mother and paramedics manager to resus both times. Despite these very nearly catastrophic events, incredibly their doctors recommend that they continue with the vaccination program. The mother agrees to this and goes public with it. The pro vaxxers, pharma, and the medical establishment hail them as heroes.

It is fudging mad.

And you wonder why no one speaks out.

 

[milo]

You say there is a conspiracy. I don't. I say people are too scared to speak out.

You are putting words in my mouth. Same ol' same ol'

As a current example Dr Sears wrote a letter to a parent advising against future vaccination after an adverse reaction. The pro vaxxers, pharma and the medical establishment want him struck off. And harass him in the press. He is the new Wakefield.

A baby in Washington suffers two cardiac arrests after DTaP. Fortunately the mother and paramedics manager to resus both times. Despite these very nearly catastrophic events, incredibly their doctors recommend that they continue with the vaccination program. The mother agrees to this and goes public with it. The pro vaxxers, pharma, and the medical establishment hail them as heroes.

It is fudgeing mad.

And you wonder why no one speaks out.

It is the logical conclusion of what you are saying. Why else would governments around the world authorise the use of vaccines that they know are causing harm?

Out of interest, do you dispute the results of the trials that are conducted on vaccines?

 

[scaramanga]

You say there is a conspiracy. I don't. I say people are too scared to speak out.

You are putting words in my mouth. Same ol' same ol'

As a current example Dr Sears wrote a letter to a parent advising against future vaccination after an adverse reaction. The pro vaxxers, pharma and the medical establishment want him struck off. And harass him in the press. He is the new Wakefield.

A baby in Washington suffers two cardiac arrests after DTaP. Fortunately the mother and paramedics manager to resus both times. Despite these very nearly catastrophic events, incredibly their doctors recommend that they continue with the vaccination program. The mother agrees to this and goes public with it. The pro vaxxers, pharma, and the medical establishment hail them as heroes.

It is fudgeing mad.

And you wonder why no one speaks out.

Like playing chess with a pigeon.......

 

[braineclipse]

We got there in the end. It is always just below the surface of even the most reasonable pro vaxxer. Anti vaxxers are liars and stupid. And we should apologise for daring to question the Pharma industry.

To apply legal tests to this.

The Pharma companies own admission that they have not established that a link means there is reasonable doubt so that they can not be sure it works.

At its highest, they could argue that on the balance of probability they think it works. In other words a better than 50/50 chance that it works.

So i say that, given the side effects and the lack of certainty from the pharma company about the vaccine's effectiveness, it's not worth it for a disease that the very great majority of us had with no long term effect and now have natural immunity to. And if it was good enough for us, it should be good enough for our kids.

it seems to me that the motivation for this vaccine is to save money for an overstretched health system rather than our kids well being.

You really don' think there's a difference between knowing that something works and knowing with certainty on every level how something works?

I can't explain to you exactly how gravity works. I don't think anyone can. But I can be very confident that it works, to the point of me not jumping off buildings.

The scientists can't explain to us exactly how the vaccine works at the immunological level. But they can be very confident that it works, to the point of demonstrating a clear health benefit.

 

[Bullet]

Like playing chess with a pigeon.......

That's what I said several pages ago, let him be. You can't convince some people the earth is round.

 

[JPBB]

Like playing chess with a pigeon.......

I am stupid for believing vaccine damage exists?

I am stupid for trying to give a voice to all those vaccine damaged people who you deny exist?

I am stupid for questioning whether every vaccine is safe and necessary?

I am stupid for questioning whether Pharma's financial interests influence vaccine policy?

Frankly, your causal insults are typical of the way the Pharma industry, the medical industry and their supporters treat vaccine damaged people

But it is that patronising, arrogant, dogmatic attitude that drives the vaccine damage movement forward.

Your refusal to listen, your lack of compassion and your outright fear of this movement will in the end bring the changes to vaccine policy that are needed

This is going to be a big issue in the next few years. Hillary has promised nationwide obligatory (and forced) vaccination for everyone within 2 years of her presidency (that's the pay back for. Pharma funding her campaign)

Your argument that vaccine damage doesn't exist because a doctor says so just is no longer credible. It reminds me of the Doctors prefer to smoke Camels campaign. We simply don't believe your trite self serving arguments when on the other side of the argument are the thousands, even millions of damaged kids.

 

[milo]

A serious question @JPBB - how can the anti-vaccine campaigners prove that they are right when they reject scientific method?

 

[scaramanga]

A serious question @JPBB - how can the anti-vaccine campaigners prove that they are right when they reject scientific method?

Through emotional opinion from non experts of course.

 

[scaramanga]

I am stupid for believing vaccine damage exists?

I am stupid for trying to give a voice to all those vaccine damaged people who you deny exist?

I am stupid for questioning whether every vaccine is safe and necessary?

I am stupid for questioning whether Pharma's financial interests influence vaccine policy?

Frankly, your causal insults are typical of the way the Pharma industry, the medical industry and their supporters treat vaccine damaged people

But it is that patronising, arrogant, dogmatic attitude that drives the vaccine damage movement forward.

Your refusal to listen, your lack of compassion and your outright fear of this movement will in the end bring the changes to vaccine policy that are needed

This is going to be a big issue in the next few years. Hillary has promised nationwide obligatory (and forced) vaccination for everyone within 2 years of her presidency (that's the pay back for. Pharma funding her campaign)

Your argument that vaccine damage doesn't exist because a doctor says so just is no longer credible. It reminds me of the Doctors prefer to smoke Camels campaign. We simply don't believe your trite self serving arguments when on the other side of the argument are the thousands, even millions of damaged kids.

The pigeon/chess comment isn't one based on your intelligence (or any lack thereof).

It's a statement showing how futile trying to have a discussion based on logic and evidence is when the other person flat out refuses to use or acknowledge either.

 

[milo]

Through emotional opinion from non experts of course.

Which will never prove anything. The only result is scaring and confusing parents.

If the campaigners were serious, they would look to crowdfund research into a vaccine where they think there is a clear link to side effects and get an independent lab to run the trial for them.

 

[JPBB]

If the campaigners were serious, they would look to crowdfund research into a vaccine where they think there is a clear link to side effects and get an independent lab to run the trial for them.

You don't think we are serious?

We will never stop fighting for vaccine damaged kids

 

[milo]

You don't think we are serious?

We will never stop fighting for vaccine damaged kids

You misunderstand what I am saying. Anecdotal evidence is always going to be insufficient. If you want to overturn current public health policy, you are going to need clinical trials that support your argument. I think that there is enough support within the anti-vaccine movement to make crowdfunding such research viable.