Quacks & Pseudoscience

[Millsy_Yiddo]

We have to guess because the Government won't tell us. If the parents of vaccine damaged kids had guessed too, their kids won't be vaccine damaged or dead.

So, in your own opinion, if vaccines had never been discovered, what would the world we live in currently look like? What mechanism would protect us against deadly disease?

ps. You absolutely don't have to guess. It's been shown multiple times in this very thread, but I'm fed up arguing that point with someone who refuses to listen/accept any sort of rational.

 

[JPBB]

So, in your own opinion, if vaccines had never been discovered, what would the world we live in currently look like? What mechanism would protect us against deadly disease?

No idea.

ps. You absolutely don't have to guess. It's been shown multiple times in this very thread, but I'm fed up arguing that point with someone who refuses to listen/accept any sort of rational.

Yep. So a mother is looking down on her dead child who only a few hours earlier had the DTaP vaccination. She says "the vaccine killed my beautiful baby". Your rational response is "no, it's more likely that a meteorite hit her" (copyright Scara).

Facetious? Perhaps. But it is not far off how the medical and pharma industry treat parents of vaccine damaged children.

 

[Seedy Ron]

And before we were able to vaccinate against it, how many mothers looked down and said "diphtheria killed my beautiful baby"?

Even though the numbers of diphtheria cases in England is low, there's a risk that an outbreak could occur if the number of people who are vaccinated falls below a certain level.

This risk was demonstrated by the diphtheria epidemic that struck the countries of the former Soviet Union between 1990 and 1998. It resulted in 157,000 cases and 5,000 deaths. The epidemic was caused by an increase in the number of children who were not vaccinated against the disease.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Diphtheria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

5000 there, but at least big pharma weren't pumping them full of brick.

 

[JPBB]

Well before 1950 crib death was almost unheard of. Then we starting pumping them full of brick as you say. Crib death was rising rapidly. So a study was done and they found this...

“Because diphtheria and tetanus toxoids pertussis (DTP) vaccine is routinely given during the period of highest incidence of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), this study was undertaken to determine if there is a temporal association between DTP immunization and SIDS. Parents of 145 SIDS victims who died in Los Angeles County between January 1, 1979, and August 23, 1980, were contacted and interviewed regarding their child’s recent immunization history. Fifty-three had received a DTP immunization. Of these 53, 27 had received a DTP immunization within 28 days of death. Six SIDS deaths occurred within 24 hours and 17 occurred within 1 week of DTP immunization.”

And they quite rightly concluded that they had all been hit by meteorites. (as Scara rightly says is the most rational explanation).

 

[Spurford]

I came on the thread to say I had seen the film Vaxxed and I thought it was interesting because it is says the CDC in American covered up statistics about vaccine damage. And we have come full circle because here we are discussing why the UK Government covers up stats about vaccine damage.

But the film Vaxxed is directed by a fraud and discredited doctor. Surely you cant trust anything he writes or says ?

 

[Seedy Ron]

Well before 1950 crib death was almost unheard of. Then we starting pumping them full of brick as you say. Crib death was rising rapidly. So a study was done and they found this...

“Because diphtheria and tetanus toxoids pertussis (DTP) vaccine is routinely given during the period of highest incidence of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), this study was undertaken to determine if there is a temporal association between DTP immunization and SIDS. Parents of 145 SIDS victims who died in Los Angeles County between January 1, 1979, and August 23, 1980, were contacted and interviewed regarding their child’s recent immunization history. Fifty-three had received a DTP immunization. Of these 53, 27 had received a DTP immunization within 28 days of death. Six SIDS deaths occurred within 24 hours and 17 occurred within 1 week of DTP immunization.”

And they quite rightly concluded that they had all been hit by meteorites. (as Scara rightly says is the most rational explanation).

X happened close to Y, therefore X caused Y.

Why did the other 92 die if they hadn't had the DTP immunization?

I'd imagine they concluded that unfortunately sometimes children die for reasons we still don't understand, but that the evidence didn't point to there being a direct link to the vaccination they'd received.

 

[milo]

I came on the thread to say I had seen the film Vaxxed and I thought it was interesting because it is says the CDC in American covered up statistics about vaccine damage. And we have come full circle because here we are discussing why the UK Government covers up stats about vaccine damage.

Despite there being no evidence of a cover up. The DWP FoI response gave a perfectly understandable reason why the data is not recorded.

Given that there have only been 30 payouts for vaccine damage in the 17 year to last year, a cover up would be a hell of a lot of effort to go to for less than two cases a year.

 

[milo]

And they quite rightly concluded that they had all been hit by meteorites. (as Scara rightly says is the most rational explanation).

Do you understand that @scaramanga was drawing a parallel between the chances of two things happening? Why have you taken such offence at this?

 

[milo]

Yep. So a mother is looking down on her dead child who only a few hours earlier had the DTaP vaccination. She says "the vaccine killed my beautiful baby". Your rational response is "no, it's more likely that a meteorite hit her" (copyright Scara).

My response would be. It is possible but so are other possible causes, let's look at the evidence.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

No idea..

Do you accept that there is a fair chance that a lot of us would be dead?

Yep. So a mother is looking down on her dead child who only a few hours earlier had the DTaP vaccination. She says "the vaccine killed my beautiful baby". Your rational response is "no, it's more likely that a meteorite hit her" (copyright Scara).

Facetious? Perhaps. But it is not far off how the medical and pharma industry treat parents of vaccine damaged children.

No. My emotional response might be "The vaccine killed my beautiful baby", I'm a parent after all and I have no doubt that in that situation I would want to attach some kind of cause to the death of my child.

My rational response would be "It could be the vaccine, or it could be loads of other things. I'll look at the evidence for possible causes and come to a conclusion based on that". This is the same response that academia and industry has given autism. They've run many many studies to try and confirm if there is a link. To date none of them have shown one. I don't know how many more times anyone can repeat this to you.

 

[JPBB]

But the film Vaxxed is directed by a fraud and discredited doctor. Surely you cant trust anything he writes or says ?

Well, we have done this before in this thread. You have libelled Wakefield. He has never been convicted of fraud. If he had, he would quite rightly be in prison.

As for do I trust him? Yes. The film certainly raised questions about wny CDCs suppressed stats that showed that vaccine damage was much more common than the industry admits particularly amongst black kids. (Black Lives Matter will campaign on this in the next few months). The whistleblower should either be charged with a criminal offence for lying or there should be an investigation by Congress under the Whistleblower laws. Instead he has been offered a huge research fund as long as he does not talk to anyone about how he was told to destroy unhelpful data. I wonder why? I guess that is just the way the pharma industry deals with problems...

The vaccine industry looks after their own. The former head of the CDC is now head of the vaccines division for Merk. This is a thank you for dramatically increasing the number of Merk vaccines recommended by the CDC. As well as this cushy job she was rewarded with million of dollars of stock which she sold on her first day in her new job.

Of course, you are welcome to believe the vaccine program is never influenced by Pharma in any way and it only acts entirely in your defenseless little baby's best interest and there is never any vaccine damage either. But that blind faith damages and kills many kids every year. It's just not worth it.

As a side note. Over 1/2 million people have seen Vaxxed in the cinema (despite pharm trying to get it banned). And it is top of the Amazon bestseller list (documentary section). There is massive interest in and concern about this issue. The Pharma industry are struggling to keep a lid on this.

You should see it. (although your post suggests that you may be too prejudiced to do that)

 

[milo]

Well, we have done this before in this thread. You have libelled Wakefield. He has never been convicted of fraud. If he had, he would quite rightly be in prison.

As for do I trust him? Yes. The film certainly raised questions about wny CDCs suppressed stats that showed that vaccine damage was much more common than the industry admits particularly amongst black kids. (Black Lives Matter will campaign on this in the next few months). The whistleblower should either be charged with a criminal offence for lying or there should be an investigation by Congress under the Whistleblower laws. Instead he has been offered a huge research fund as long as he does not talk to anyone about how he was told to destroy unhelpful data. I wonder why? I guess that is just the way the pharma industry deals with problems...

The vaccine industry looks after their own. The former head of the CDC is now head of the vaccines division for Merk. This is a thank you for dramatically increasing the number of Merk vaccines recommended by the CDC. As well as this cushy job she was rewarded with million of dollars of stock which she sold on her first day in her new job.

Of course, you are welcome to believe the vaccine program is never influenced by Pharma in any way and it only acts entirely in your defenseless little baby's best interest and there is never any vaccine damage either. But that blind faith damages and kills many kids every year. It's just not worth it.

As a side note. Over 1/2 million people have seen Vaxxed in the cinema (despite pharm trying to get it banned). And it is top of the Amazon bestseller list (documentary section). There is massive interest in and concern about this issue. The Pharma industry are struggling to keep a lid on this.

You should see it. (although your post suggests that you may be too prejudiced to do that)

So with a lack of evidence to support a viewpoint, the only logical conclusion can be a massive global conspiracy involving all of the pharmaceutical companies, academics at every major university in the world and all of the governments in the developed world. Sounds plausible.

 

[JPBB]

And before we were able to vaccinate against it, how many mothers looked down and said "diphtheria killed my beautiful baby"?



http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Diphtheria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

5000 there, but at least big pharma weren't pumping them full of brick.

In the US, since 1982, cases have increasing year on year despite CDC, in desperation, ordering more and more shots of DTaP for your defenseless kid. The vaccine doesn't even work. And there are so many risks. What is the point?

 

[JPBB]

So with a lack of evidence to support a viewpoint, the only logical conclusion can be a massive global conspiracy involving all of the pharmaceutical companies, academics at every major university in the world and all of the governments in the developed world. Sounds plausible.

I won't go that far but I can understand why you have that opinion.

I would say that Pharma's overwhelming financial power that supports the institutions these people work for and their use of their advertising budgets to ensure that the media attacks any one who challenges them means that no one who values their careers and financial stability will challenge Pharma on vaccines.

Wakefield is the most famous (and reviled) scientist in the World. What did he do? He didn't get permission to use some kids blood samples in a study. Not great, I agree. But not deserving of his reputation as the most dangerous scientist in the World.

His real crime was to dare to challenge the status quo on vaccines. And now the NHS, CDC and Big Pharma has him in the same bracket as Mengele and being responsible for the deaths of millions of kids.

No wonder researchers, academics, doctors stay away from challenging the vaccine industry. They have seen what the media and Pharma will do to you if you question the vaccine gravy train.

 

[scaramanga]

Wakefield is the most famous (and reviled) scientist in the World. What did he do?

Didn't he also do lumbar punctures and colonoscopies?

Colonoscopies (I assume - fortunate enough not to have needed one) are incredibly invasive. Lumbar punctures are comparatively risky for a medical procedure.

In fact, the irony is that a child is far more likely to have a life-changing injury from a lumbar puncture than they are from taking a vaccine. Yet Wakefield did this needlessly and without proper consent.

 

[JPBB]

Yes, we agree. An error of judgement for which he was harshly punished.

But you know and I know this is not the reason he is the most dangerous scientist in the World.

His failure to get his paperwork signed is not the reason we are told he is responsible for millions of dead babies.

We all know that he is portrayed as evil as Mengele because he dared to challenge the vaccine industry.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Wakefield is the most famous (and reviled) scientist in the World. What did he do? He didn't get permission to use some kids blood samples in a study. Not great, I agree. But not deserving of his reputation as the most dangerous scientist in the World..

He hand selected 12 children and rigged a study to make it look like the MMR jab had given them autism. The study was carried out without approval from an ethics committee.

He took money from the UK legal aid fund to run the study and made about £500,000 from it. None of this money was declared to the Lancet as it should have been.

He made up that the measles virus had been discovered in the gut of the autistic children who had been given the MMR. Analysis of samples from his own lab proved otherwise.

He claimed that onset of autism post MMR was almost immediate in all the children when post study statements from the fathers & mothers of the actual children stated that symptoms began months or more afterwards.

He made up a fudging condition called autistic entercolitis before the study was run.




He done all of the above having filed a patent for a 'safer' single measles vaccine months previous to the study starting. Funnily enough, had he been successful with his plan he would have made most of his money from selling his 'safer vaccine' to the very 'Big Pharma' that you have so much contempt for.

But sure. No Biggie..............

 

[JPBB]

He hand selected 12 children and rigged a study to make it look like the MMR jab had given them autism. The study was carried out without approval from an ethics committee.

He took money from the UK legal aid fund to run the study and made about £500,000 from it. None of this money was declared to the Lancet as it should have been.

He made up that the measles virus had been discovered in the gut of the autistic children who had been given the MMR. Analysis of samples from his own lab proved otherwise.

He claimed that onset of autism post MMR was almost immediate in all the children when post study statements from the fathers & mothers of the actual children stated that symptoms began months or more afterwards.

He made up a fudgeing condition called autistic entercolitis before the study was run.




He done all of the above having filed a patent for a 'safer' single measles vaccine months previous to the study starting. Funnily enough, had he been successful with his plan he would have made most of his money from selling his 'safer vaccine' to the very 'Big Pharma' that you have so much contempt for.

But sure. No Biggie..............

Sure. Some of what you say is correct, although spun to suit your point. I agree he is a bit of prat. And he was rightly punished for his failure to get approval from the ethics committee.

But his reputation as the most famous and most dangerous scientist in the World is not deserved. He is not Mengele despite the attempts of the media to portray him in same way.
.
And Wakefield's treatment resonates and influences all comment on vaccines. You see how polarised the argument's are. There is no discussion. No acknowledge of another point of view. Everyone is terrified that Pharma will turn on them too so they just blindly agree or keep quiet.

Vaxxed is a classic example. Pulled from Tribeca because big Pharma would withdraw their funding if they showed it. They wanted to show it but they couldn't risk fighting Big Pharma.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Sure. Some of what you say is correct, although spun to suit your point. I agree he is a bit of prat. And he was rightly punished for his failure to get approval from the ethics committee..

How is it spun to suit my point?

But his reputation as the most famous and most dangerous scientist in the World is not deserved. He is not Mengele despite the attempts of the media to portray him in same way.
.
And Wakefield's treatment resonates and influences all comment on vaccines. You see how polarised the argument's are. There is no discussion. No acknowledge of another point of view. Everyone is terrified that Pharma will turn on them too so they just blindly agree or keep quiet.

Vaxxed is a classic example. Pulled from Tribeca because big Pharma would withdraw their funding if they showed it. They wanted to show it but they couldn't risk fighting Big Pharma.

You keep talking about Wakefield or anyone else being terrified that Big Pharma will turn on them if they show that vaccines are 'dangerous' or cause autism. But, If Wakefields research had been legitimate and he had proven a link between autism and the MMR, he would have sold his 'safer' single vaccine to Big Pharma for milllions and millions of pounds.

He wasn't trying to 'bring down' big Pharma and the vaccine industry. He was trying to become part of it.

If someone proved through clinical study that MMR caused autism and developed an alternate vaccine (which didn't) Big Pharma would be queuing up to purchase the rights to make and sell that drug. Since no one has proven there is a link or that vaccines are dangerous there is no drive to sell a safer alternative. I say it again. No one has ever run a study to show any kind of link - plenty have tried.

 

[Seedy Ron]

In the US, since 1982, cases have increasing year on year despite CDC, in desperation, ordering more and more shots of DTaP for your defenseless kid. The vaccine doesn't even work. And there are so many risks. What is the point?

Cases of what? According to the CDC there were 2 cases of diphtheria between 2004 and 2015.

http://www.cdc.gov/diphtheria/clinicians.html