Praise for the Academy

[Bonsaiboy]

..... And I don't believe he even made the squad. He then came on against soton a week after AVB went and he couldn't make a match day squad and was excellent. He was was then very good against palace and arsenal too. He was certainly ready and whilst he is more consistent now, that has only come from actually playing.

Also there hasn't been an amazing shift in our academy and the likes of Chel53a, arsenal, liverpool tend to be winning leagues regularly as well as us. However those players paths are often blocked off (Wilson was knocking on the door for a while now) For sure we have improved and have a strong set up but its because we have given an opportunity to young academy players that you are making these assumptions. These guys were ready last year and TS said it - AVB wasnt interested and there's your fall out

One of the reasons I was very pro the appointment of Poch was because it's pretty clear the only way we can truly compete is by developing our own players or spotting up and coming ones we can bring in for a decent fee. The spunking away of the Bale Millions has proven this - any time we spend 20 or 30 million we'll probably be wasting money because players truly worth that are snapped up by clubs who pay 100k + a week wages.

If Kane was playing for another team right now, Swansea say, we wouldn't be in the market for him - it'd be between Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project who brought him. But, having nurtured him, we have a good chance of keeping him a few years now.

 

[milo]

One of the reasons I was very pro the appointment of Poch was because it's pretty clear the only way we can truly compete is by developing our own players or spotting up and coming ones we can bring in for a decent fee. The spunking away of the Bale Millions has proven this - any time we spend 20 or 30 million we'll probably be wasting money because players truly worth that are snapped up by clubs who pay 100k + a week wages.

If Kane was playing for another team right now, Swansea say, we wouldn't be in the market for him - it'd be between Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project who brought him. But, having nurtured him, we have a good chance of keeping him a few years now.

I don't think that is true at all. We do need to either to take a punt early or sign players that the big clubs have passed over for some reason but I do not think that this means that they are destined for failure. We have been signing, developing and selling players at a profit for a while now and £20-30m just happens to be the going rate for promising players now.

 

[billyiddo]

Signing Modric from Zagreb in todays market would probably be substantially more than back then

 

[Bonsaiboy]

I don't think that is true at all. We do need to either to take a punt early or sign players that the big clubs have passed over for some reason but I do not think that this means that they are destined for failure. We have been signing, developing and selling players at a profit for a while now and £20-30m just happens to be the going rate for promising players now.

It's the salaries we can't compete on, and won't be able to until we move to the new stadium and it's paid for - in the same way Arsenal have been able to bring in players like Sanchez and Ozil and pay them £150k a week in the last couple of seasons.

We can't afford to take risks on 20-30 million pound players unless they're of proven premier league quality. Chadli and Eriksen were the perfect sort of signings for us. Bags of potential, but enough of a doubt to deter the richer clubs and keep the fee/salaries down.

 

[milo]

It's the salaries we can't compete on, and won't be able to until we move to the new stadium and it's paid for - in the same way Arsenal have been able to bring in players like Sanchez and Ozil and pay them £150k a week in the last couple of seasons.

We can't afford to take risks on 20-30 million pound players unless they're of proven premier league quality. Chadli and Eriksen were the perfect sort of signings for us. Bags of potential, but enough of a doubt to deter the richer clubs and keep the fee/salaries down.

I understand that we cannot compete with the top clubs on wages but I do not think that means that we should not look at players that they pass over in the £20-30m price range. As Billy says, Modric would probably cost something similar now, it is just the going rate for a promising player.

 

[Bonsaiboy]

I understand that we cannot compete with the top clubs on wages but I do not think that means that we should not look at players that they pass over in the £20-30m price range. As Billy says, Modric would probably cost something similar now, it is just the going rate for a promising player.

Modric falls in the Chadli/Eriksen category - we got a player that a richer club would later be prepared to pay £40 million for - for less than half that, and on relatively low wages, because there were enough doubts him - his stature mainly - to deter the richer clubs. And he was an established international as well.

Lamela was too much of a gamble at 30 million and Soldado too old and no track record outside of Spain, which is why they were bad signings, and there's no future in buying players like that.

 

[milo]

Modric falls in the Chadli/Eriksen category - we got a player that a richer club would later be prepared to pay £40 million for - for less than half that, and on relatively low wages, because there were enough doubts him - his stature mainly - to deter the richer clubs. And he was an established international as well.

Lamela was too much of a gamble at 30 million and Soldado too old and no track record outside of Spain, which is why they were bad signings, and there's no future in buying players like that.

Modric was our joint record signing when we picked him up, so the Chadli/Eriksen comparison does not hold up for me.

I think that it is silly to talk in definites about young players. There are so many variables as to whether they will be a success and of these, rice tag and whether someone else gets there first seem to be pretty low down the list.

We were very close to signing Hazard before Chelsea bored their way to the Champions' League. Chelsea paid just over £30m for him and that deal paid off.

 

[harr1984]

Maybe Sherwood (as the person responsible for doing so) hadn't correctly communicated how good Bentaleb was to AVB.

You're making a huge number of assumptions purely because they suit your disrust of AVB.

Majority of managers watch the U21s anyway, it shouldn't of taken Sherwood to bang down AVBs door trying to get him to play. Most managers know the U21 players' profiles extensively.

Either AVB wasn't watching enough U21 games to realise how good Bentaleb was because he didn't have much emphasis on the youngsters, or he just didn't want him playing....


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[scaramanga]

Majority of managers watch the U21s anyway, it shouldn't of taken Sherwood to bang down AVBs door trying to get him to play. Most managers know the U21 players' profiles extensively.

Either AVB wasn't watching enough U21 games to realise how good Bentaleb was because he didn't have much emphasis on the youngsters, or he just didn't want him playing....


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

He was probably doing what most with sense would and making sure that he was wherever Dimmeh wasn't.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Majority of managers watch the U21s anyway, it shouldn't of taken Sherwood to bang down AVBs door trying to get him to play. Most managers know the U21 players' profiles extensively.

Either AVB wasn't watching enough U21 games to realise how good Bentaleb was because he didn't have much emphasis on the youngsters, or he just didn't want him playing....


Sent from my Dollarbird using White-eyed foliage-gleaner

AVB showed no interest at all in our youth setup. Very, very different to Pochettino now.

 

[scaramanga]

Bentaleb played in pre season and was an unused sub in the Europa League, so it's not like AVB didn't know about him, but he wasn't ready to be a starter when Sherwood put him in the team. It helps that he now has a coach capable of instructing the players with what he wants them to do.

This.

If there's a range of readiness for first team starts, Bentaleb was at the very bottom of that range when Dimmeh started playing him. It was a gamble that worked out but could very easily have backfired and put Bentaleb's progression back a long way.

I think most sensible coaches with an eye to the future would have eased him in more slowly and not just put all that weight on his shoulders from the beginning.

 

[LCLC]

This.

If there's a range of readiness for first team starts, Bentaleb was at the very bottom of that range when Dimmeh started playing him. It was a gamble that worked out but could very easily have backfired and put Bentaleb's progression back a long way.

I think most sensible coaches with an eye to the future would have eased him in more slowly and not just put all that weight on his shoulders from the beginning.

Apart from the fact there was talk of him taking the **** in training for a while before that. Even harry kane mentioned it in a Sept interview that bentelab was the one to look out for.

It's angering and also ludicrous just how little credit you will give the guy and even worse that you go out of your way to assassinate him. Anything to do with the guy and you become an irrational mess who will try and make him out to be a cancer when in fact our new breed of hope can be attributed to him in a significant way.

 

[scaramanga]

Apart from the fact there was talk of him taking the **** in training for a while before that. Even harry kane mentioned it in a Sept interview that bentelab was the one to look out for.

That's got very little to do with being ready for the pressure of starting for the first team, as you should well know. Dim got lucky - the pressure didn't effect Bentaleb too badly and he's come back strongly.

It's angering and also ludicrous just how little credit you will give the guy and even worse that you go out of your way to assassinate him. Anything to do with the guy and you become an irrational mess who will try and make him out to be a cancer when in fact our new breed of hope can be attributed to him in a significant way.

It's funny that you mention cancer because we have two ex managers now publicly talking about how he schemes and plots in the background and makes their lives more difficult in order to improve his own status.

 

[milo]

Majority of managers watch the U21s anyway, it shouldn't of taken Sherwood to bang down AVBs door trying to get him to play. Most managers know the U21 players' profiles extensively.

Either AVB wasn't watching enough U21 games to realise how good Bentaleb was because he didn't have much emphasis on the youngsters, or he just didn't want him playing....


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

To be fair, Bentaleb was training with the first team a fair bit in AVB's last (half) season.

 

[Robbo]

It might be covered in the "what are they worth" thread, but I was thinking: How much money have our youth players saved us from spending?

Kane, Rose, Bentaleb, Mason and Townsend - surely to buy similar players with similar impact, same age, nationality, etc. would set us back at least £50 million in today's market? Add the transfer fees we've received from the sale of O'Hara, Caulker and Livermore to the list, and we're looking at a possible £70-75 million worth of players that the academy has produced. Tom Carroll would also be worth £5-8 million if we sell him, I can imagine.

And this is now - if the current crop of youngsters in the first team keep improving, we could be looking at a total of £100 million +.

That's a pretty good return for investing in youth.

 

[Raziel]

It might be covered in the "what are they worth" thread, but I was thinking: How much money have our youth players saved us from spending?

Kane, Rose, Bentaleb, Mason and Townsend - surely to buy similar players with similar impact, same age, nationality, etc. would set us back at least £50 million in today's market? Add the transfer fees we've received from the sale of O'Hara, Caulker and Livermore to the list, and we're looking at a possible £70-75 million worth of players that the academy has produced. Tom Carroll would also be worth £5-8 million if we sell him, I can imagine.

And this is now - if the current crop of youngsters in the first team keep improving, we could be looking at a total of £100 million +.

That's a pretty good return for investing in youth.

In addition to the sales like Livermore/Caulker and others which likely pay for the Academy itself

 

[Bullet]

Scaramanga, you are wrong. It is not so black and white. Don't confuse Timmeh's character with his actions

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That's got very little to do with being ready for the pressure of starting for the first team, as you should well know. Dim got lucky - the pressure didn't effect Bentaleb too badly and he's come back strongly.


It's funny that you mention cancer because we have two ex managers now publicly talking about how he schemes and plots in the background and makes their lives more difficult in order to improve his own status.

I've read avbs comments. Who is the other manager

 

[Gutter Boy]

I've read avbs comments. Who is the other manager

Hoddle

Roy Hodgson says the same about him at Blackburn too.

 

[milo]

I'm going to lock this thread. We've got a Sherwood thread on General and an academy thread stickied on SN&V. I don't see this going anywhere good, anywhere soon.