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Politics, politics, politics

SpurMeUp said:
Sadly with Corbyn in charge the establisment will not relent with a campaign against him. He will have to take on all the press and established media, and he's starting from a point where traditional Labour people are not sure they can vote for him. I don't want to tinkle on anyones strawberrys but given the state of the opposition now, he should be double digit points ahead now.

I just can't see him doing it. Not impossile, but highly unlikely looking at the ingredients of it all.
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I like him and I want to see radical change in the country. But I don't want to vote for a Nazi
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
You just cancel it and move on as you put it. You will have 17 million people feeling lied to and betrayed.

In this country we have seen a resurgent left wing movement. You betray 17m people and it won't be just UKIP you need to worry about it will be the BNP. Britain has not shown the same interest in the far right as the rest of Europe but you deny 17million people democracy you are storing up issues down the line.
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Can we outline what it is they will they feel betrayed about? Immigration basically? If so then that needs addressing within the UK (regardless of the EU). Leaving the trading block only means fiancial stresses for the UK - less jobs, less government money to spend - and fuking up peace in Ireland. No one wants those things.

Time to let go of positions and be pragmatic. What will actually work for this current United Kingdom? Brexit itself doesn't work. Hard Brexit means a whole host of issues, Soft Brexit means Leaver and Remainers aren't happy. Isn't that clear? Or could you dispute it?

I guess Leavers are clinging to the possibility that a Harder Brexit would be okay? How would people see a no-deal-with-the-EU exit unfoldingd in terms of jobs and economy?
 
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Danishfurniturelover said:
I like him and I want to see radical change in the country. But I don't want to vote for a Nazi
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And therein lies the problem. He will continue to be tarnished, making even voters who like his ideas, think twice. I would like to vote for him, but he would tax my company more (I can take that) and he's on the fence re. Brexit (so he can appeal to the most people). I also have reservations about his ability to govern. The way he let all the anti-semitism stuff fester and not nip it in the bud, doesn't suggest he's a leader that has much leadership ability.

Is he all dreams, or can he actually deliver anything? I think its an academic question, the establishment won't let him get into power.

All he really needed to do was be positive toward business, make some overtures and assurances, and put forward an inclusive vision. Instead he wants to be a revolutionary. He needs to take the establishment and existing setup with him, otherwise he stands no chance imo.
 
17m out of 65m is far from a majority, I get that decisions are made by those who show up (or in our case those that are allowed to show up) but that whole betrayal of democracy line is flimflam.
 
galeforce said:
17m out of 65m is far from a majority, I get that decisions are made by those who show up (or in our case those that are allowed to show up) but that whole betrayal of democracy line is flimflam.
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...and you could say Brexit is now anti-democratic as recent polls have Remain leading. So as things stand the people actually don't want this farce. Even Leavers didn't vote for this mess did they?
 
SpurMeUp said:
...and you could say Brexit is now anti-democratic as recent polls have Remain leading. So as things stand the people actually don't want this farce. Even Leavers didn't vote for this mess did they?
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The message keeps changing, first of all leavers voted for Norway, recently apparently they voted for Canada, in March I’m sure the narrative will be that they voted for no deal..

“People know what they voted for”*


*also flimflam
 
SpurMeUp said:
...and you could say Brexit is now anti-democratic as recent polls have Remain leading. So as things stand the people actually don't want this farce. Even Leavers didn't vote for this mess did they?
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Well we should change government every time the is a change in opinion poll then.

What mess? Don't let the liberal media lead the narrative here. Perhaps a slight slow down in growth but no mess yet.

I would have accepted soft brexit to start with but we have a once in a lifetime chance to do something great and set the country on an amazing path. Bound to be a little bit of upheaval at first mind, but the end goal is worth it.
 
galeforce said:
17m out of 65m is far from a majority, I get that decisions are made by those who show up (or in our case those that are allowed to show up) but that whole betrayal of democracy line is flimflam.
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And how many of the 65m are allowed to vote, above 17 etc. Not another case of a romoaner trying to dupe the figures, I thought you guys were above that haha.

We had a referendum we had the campaign's, just because project fear 1 did not work and even project fear 2 is not exactly hammering home a massive lead does not mean your right.

The was a vote one side got more votes then the other. How remain have behaved is now throwing into doubt every election we have in the future.

Labour win the next election by two seats do the Tories take them to court to over turn it because they don't like or agree with Corbyns spending plans or think he told lies.

It has ruined democracy by not accepting a democratic vote, you don't mind because it is your side moaning. But had leave lost I would have said the same thing, a referendum is a once in a generation thing and the next one should be in 30 years.
 
StephenH said:
I doubt the vast majority of people had any idea of the ramifications of their vote.
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Yes everyone is to thick to think things through, however do we decide on things in our personal life's like jobs, insurance, properties savings and investments.

Only remain can think things through and anyone who votes a different way is stupid.


Those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
And how many of the 65m are allowed to vote, above 17 etc. Not another case of a romoaner trying to dupe the figures, I thought you guys were above that haha.

We had a referendum we had the campaign's, just because project fear 1 did not work and even project fear 2 is not exactly hammering home a massive lead does not mean your right.

The was a vote one side got more votes then the other. How remain have behaved is now throwing into doubt every election we have in the future.

Labour win the next election by two seats do the Tories take them to court to over turn it because they don't like or agree with Corbyns spending plans or think he told lies.

It has ruined democracy by not accepting a democratic vote, you don't mind because it is your side moaning. But had leave lost I would have said the same thing, a referendum is a once in a generation thing and the next one should be in 30 years.
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Most elections change the govt for the next 5 years, then you get a do over, the electorate that will be impacted the most is the one that gets the vote.

The referendum put the futures of the country’s children on the line, ultimately wrecked their prospects and destroyed the economy and gave them no voice.

If you think that’s democracy, fair enough, I don’t.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Sadly with Corbyn in charge the establisment will not relent with a campaign against him. He will have to take on all the press and established media, and he's starting from a point where traditional Labour people are not sure they can vote for him. I don't want to tinkle on anyones strawberrys but given the state of the Tories, he should be double digit points ahead now.

I just can't see him doing it. Not impossile, but highly unlikely looking at the ingredients as they are now.
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I don't think there will be any significant movement in polls until we are further along with Brexit. A "centrist" isn't going to come along on a white horse waving an EU flag and grab up 45% of the electorate because otherwise, the Lib Dems would be polling 15-20 percent of the vote and instead they are averaging about 8% in the polls. "Leavers" are solidly behind the Tories at least until we have actually left, imo. And any General Election that gets called in the meantime will be a close run thing -- my hope is that Labour do well enough to get the Tories out of power.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Yes everyone is to thick to think things through, however do we decide on things in our personal life's like jobs, insurance, properties savings and investments.

Only remain can think things through and anyone who votes a different way is stupid.


Those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it.
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It’s history that is being ignored, that is why it’s so scary.

Who do we blame next when the penny drops that FoM was keeping this country in business?
 
the dza said:
No idea, but I want to see this Tory government gone. I'd hope that a GE would result in that.
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I don't think it will. Nothing has shifted opinion wise for the last 2-3 years. It's Tories 42/43% and Labour 40/41%. The Tories would end up with a small majority/minority government again for the third time.

Only after Brexit is sorted will Labour be able to win a landslide on Attlee-esque domestic agenda.
 
galeforce said:
It’s history that is being ignored, that is why it’s so scary.

Who do we blame next when the penny drops that FoM was keeping this country in business?
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Ourselves!

We always allow those who risk nothing to manipulate those of us that will lose the most.
 
galeforce said:
17m out of 65m is far from a majority, I get that decisions are made by those who show up (or in our case those that are allowed to show up) but that whole betrayal of democracy line is flimflam.
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I see the logic of letting 16 and 17 year olds have the vote. But newborns and toddlers?
 
Gutter Boy said:
I don't think it will. Nothing has shifted opinion wise for the last 2-3 years. It's Tories 42/43% and Labour 40/41%. The Tories would end up with a small majority/minority government again for the third time.

Only after Brexit is sorted will Labour be able to win a landslide on Attlee-esque domestic agenda.
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A full GE campaign can easily see a shift that would put Labour as the largest party and the Tories out of power. Polls had them way behind the last time an election was called and Corbyn is a very good campaigner. This time, Labour's central office would be working differently, with money being spent on attacking marginals as opposed to defensive campaigning. Anything can happen of course, but I'm confident that via the campaign, Labour would get enough seats to at least be the largest party.
 
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