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Politics, politics, politics

Gutter Boy said:
Yes. The EU allow you to have two rates - a standard one and a reduced one. We are bad and disobey them by keeping a 3rd (zero rate), which they've been trying to force us to abandon. But my point is we are not allowed to use it flexibly as a means of progressive taxation or to stimulate certain sectors.
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This is not correct. I work in tax by the way.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Yes. The EU allow you to have two rates - a standard one and a reduced one. We are bad and disobey them by keeping a 3rd (zero rate), which they've been trying to force us to abandon. But my point is we are not allowed to use it flexibly as a means of progressive taxation or to stimulate certain sectors.
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The UK sets its own tax rates. Not long ago VAT was 17.5 and 15%. Capital gain tax has also been changed quite recently. How the hell did we do that if the EU controls our tax rates!?
 
I can't speak with authority on this matter, but what GB is saying seems quite clear to me: if we wanted to hit certain products and services (he cited luxury goods earlier) with higher than standard rates of VAT (which certainly seems a worthwhile enough idea), we're forbidden from doing so.

Is he wrong about that?
 
DTA said:
Dude what you talking about? You are complaining because the EU is better at negotiations then we are... Principally because they are in a much stronger position and always were.

But this is not news, this is what we (remainers) have been saying all along. But we were told, 'that's project fear' 'they need us more than we need them' 'will be the easiest negotiations in history'

All complete an utter flimflam. But instead of Brexiteers Manning up and saying 'you know what we were wrong.'

We now get lines such as ' the EU are being jolly mean" 'why can't they negotiate properly'

Dude we are not equals with the EU we were always going to get a deal that is worse than what we have because they are the much much bigger partner it's that fudging simple... Why don't the Brexiteers get that?

Likewise if we do a deal with the US we will get bent over again. But those fudgers won't even use Lube :)
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"Dude" you betray your attitude to this completely.

Why the necessity for winners and losers? Us vs them? Me vs you? Why so petty and childish?

Why not take a more mature view, realise there is much to be lost and gained on each side, and find a compromise that works best for all?
 
Parklaner81 said:
I can't speak with authority on this matter, but what GB is saying seems quite clear to me: if we wanted to hit certain products and services (he cited luxury goods earlier) with higher than standard rates of VAT (which certainly seems a worthwhile enough idea), we're forbidden from doing so.

Is he wrong about that?
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Thanks - yes, that's my understanding and hope for post-Brexit arrangements

The ERG are hot on this too (hence their amendment), because they want the opposite - to be able to lower VAT on certain items, to be able to out-compete the EU. I can see the sense in this, but only when it relates to noble enterprises e.g. food, medicine, books and green energy.

We have 0% on food, medicine and books (but the EU have long been trying to force us to go to 5%), but we can't move anything new like green energy to 0%.

This is also what the arguments about the 'tampon tax' are about. The EU won't let us move them to 0%
 
Gutter Boy said:
Thanks - yes, that's my understanding and hope for post-Brexit arrangements

The ERG are hot on this too (hence their amendment), because they want the opposite - to be able to lower VAT on certain items, to be able to out-compete the EU. I can see the sense in this, but only when it relates to noble enterprises e.g. food, medicine, books and green energy.

We have 0% on food, medicine and books (but the EU have long been trying to force us to go to 5%), but we can't move anything new like green energy to 0%.

This is also what the arguments about the 'tampon tax' are about. The EU won't let us move them to 0%
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Proposals for VAT reform will allow you to jus that, this was largely in response to the "tampon tax" - seems like the UK can get things changed while being in the EU.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-3443_en.htm

Needs to be voted on by member states.
 
Gutter Boy said:
A step towards full standardisation?
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did you read the FT article I posted on the previous page (realize the Europa link I posted is not what I meant to post)

https://www.ft.com/content/daa358ee-fc2c-11e7-9b32-d7d59aace167


officials had also grown tired of domestic political squabbles being raised to the bloc level. One example was when David Cameron, the former UK prime minister, sought a VAT exemption from a so-called tampon tax at an EU leaders’ summit in 2016, forcing all 28 heads of state to discuss the issue. The commission subsequently said it wanted to make VAT “simpler, more fraud-proof and business-friendly” and transfer some decision-making back to national capitals. Thursday’s initiative needs member states’ unanimous agreement and parliament’s approval before it can become law. Recommended Brussels Briefing: the MEP turned PM ECB rebuked for Mario Draghi’s links to bankers’ club UK pledges to mitigate business Brexit damage from upfront VAT Governments would have to maintain their standard VAT rates on high-value portable goods such as cars, consumer electronics and smartphones, which Brussels sees as easily susceptible to VAT fraud. Standard rates would also still have to apply to controlled items such as tobacco, fuel and financial services.

Member states will still have to keep a standard VAT of at least 15 per cent but will be allowed four reduced levies: a zero charge, a rate of less than 5 per cent and two between 5 per cent and the standard rate.
 
Parklaner81 said:
Is that your way of saying, 'apologies, GB, you were right afterall....'?! ;)
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No sadly not. Will need to do better. I would be happy to hold my hands up if it added up. But the reality is the UK has been setting its own tax quite happily ever since its been in the EU. As noted, we change our VAT, capital gains tax etc...in short the important stuff. That we can't change the rate specifically on Tampons is not a big loss (if true). Or is that a biggie for you?
 
SpurMeUp said:
No sadly not. Will need to do better. I would be happy to hold my hands up if it added up. But the reality is the UK has been setting its own tax quite happily ever since its been in the EU. As noted, we change our VAT, capital gains tax etc...in short the important stuff. That we can't change the rate specifically on Tampons is not a big loss (if true). Or is that a biggie for you?
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I'm not aware that anybody suggested the UK didn't or couldn't set it own tax rates. This related to a specific point regarding VAT. But I see what you did there - trying to turn it into a wider, more general issue when you get caught out on specifics. IIRC it's a tactic you've used in here before...
 
Parklaner81 said:
I'm not aware that anybody suggested the UK didn't or couldn't set it own tax rates. This related to a specific point regarding VAT. But I see what you did there - trying to turn it into a wider, more general issue when you get caught out on specifics. IIRC it's a tactic you've used in here before...
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It is very simple, is this something that is important for the UK? Will being able to change VAT rates of Tampons change lives or have much impact? Can the UK set its own taxes, yes the important ones. Gutterboy and maybe you are trying to suggest we don't have control of our taxes. The core reality is the EU doesn't really hold us back with own taxation. We regularly change VAT, capital gains etc. If the EU did hold us back in any significant way you might point to something that matters and explain how this affects us negatively - that would be more interesting than personal attacks. Try to debate the issue and how they effect lives.
 
SpurMeUp said:
It is very simple, is this something that is important for the UK? Will being able to change VAT rates of Tampons change lives or have much impact? Can the UK set its own taxes, yes the important ones. Gutterboy and maybe you are trying to suggest we don't have control of our taxes. The core reality is the EU doesn't really hold us back with own taxation. We regularly change VAT, capital gains etc. If the EU did hold us back in any significant way you might point to something that matters and explain how this affects us negatively - that would be more interesting than personal attacks. Try to debate the issue and how they effect lives.
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It's the very crux of the EU problem though. It illustrates how it ties us indefinitely into Reaganomics. Competition and state aid laws, including VAT arrangements, are there to stop us taxing and spending in ways other than Reaganomics

A higher tax on luxury cars would bring a massive bonus for public services. But the EU is there as an agent of the big capitalists
 
Gutter Boy said:
It's the very crux of the EU problem though. It illustrates how it ties us indefinitely into Reaganomics. Competition and state aid laws, including VAT arrangements, are there to stop us taxing and spending in ways other than Reaganomics

A higher tax on luxury cars would bring a massive bonus for public services. But the EU is there as an agent of the big capitalists
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Would a high tax on luxury cars be popular? Why not just increase capital gains tax which would tax wealthy people more - not just the ones that like luxury cars? Is it the EU holding us back? Really?
 
SpurMeUp said:
@Parklaner81
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But US states also have Federal tax to pay.
Local twxattax levels (which is state level AND county level) are designed to cater for the huge differences across the country and different ways of funding, with most US areas run as a "business" rather than a community.
Not really the route I want to see the UK go down.

A US Vs UK comparison is not a realistic measure.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Would a high tax on luxury cars be popular? Why not just increase capital gains tax which would tax wealthy people more - not just the ones that like luxury cars? Is it the EU holding us back? Really?
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It would be ideologically driven. To move people away from consumerism and anti-ecological behaviours

Indirect taxation is always the best way to target things like this. It's also much less easily avoided, especially if tied in with sovereign customs arrangements
 
Gutter Boy said:
It would be ideologically driven. To move people away from consumerism and anti-ecological behaviours

Indirect taxation is always the best way to target things like this. It's also much less easily avoided, especially if tied in with sovereign customs arrangements
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So not likely to happen unless we embrace a Corbyn post-communist reality. If you are not a communist are there any problems with the status quo?
 
Gutter Boy said:
It's the very crux of the EU problem though. It illustrates how it ties us indefinitely into Reaganomics. Competition and state aid laws, including VAT arrangements, are there to stop us taxing and spending in ways other than Reaganomics

A higher tax on luxury cars would bring a massive bonus for public services. But the EU is there as an agent of the big capitalists
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Wouldn't a higher tax rate on luxury cars just hit the car industry? Meaning less research and development of cleaner technologies.
 
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