Politics, politics, politics

[the dza]

Rigging a vote by splitting leavers?

If there is a 3rd referendum, it should be WTO vs May's plan.

If you get people to vote again on the same question because they voted 'wrong' the last time, you disenfranchise the whole of middle and working class England, and turn generations away from democracy

I think, if there was a 2nd referendum, it should be between Remain and WTO (Hard Brexit). This is the only honest choice imo. Norway type options make nobody happy on either side of the vote.

If out means WTO, then there is then an honesty to the leave campaign that was not there first time around. First time around, leaving would be easy they said, we could have access to this and that, German Cars, French/Italian wine, falling over themselves to do a deal. All b0ll0cks.

Remain then just has to be honest and lay out the problems with EU, and make the case that even with these problems, it's a better deal for the country than going on to WTO rules. 2 years of the problems with Brexit manifesting has made people much better informed imo, on all sides of the vote.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Of course its not the only honest choice.

As said many times - by remainers in fact - leave was never defined and so "leave" means different things to different people.

Trying to pin them on WTO or nothing is just another way of trying to manipulate into undoing the original vote.

 

[the dza]

Of course its not the only honest choice.

As said many times - by remainers in fact - leave was never defined and so "leave" means different things to different people.

Trying to pin them on WTO or nothing is just another way of trying to manipulate into undoing the original vote.

It is dishonest to say that we can leave and find this mystical middle ground that is acceptable to leave voters, the EU and Parliament. It doesn't exist, just look how quickly May's proposal is unravelling, the EU haven't even began to negotiate it yet.

If people want out, then they have to sh1t or get off the pot when it comes to the road ahead. We've had 2 years of this now and at the moment, the only options that are presenting themselves are "Brexit in name only" (in which case, may as well remain) or WTO. If leave means leave, so be it. Vote accordingly.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So what is it? You've now gone from one option to two on the leave choice - which only goes to prove my point.

And, as you point out, there is no deal presented yet with the EU - so what are you even talking about?

The choice could be very different to what you present.

 

[the dza]

So what is it? You've now gone from one option to two on the leave choice - which only goes to prove my point.

And, as you point out, there is no deal presented yet with the EU - so what are you even talking about?

The choice could be very different to what you present.

I haven't gone from one option to two options on the leave side, because I am saying that one of those options can't be delivered -- because there is no possible agreement between EU, Leave side or Parliament. May's plan won't get past Parliament and that's BEFORE there has been discussion on it with the EU, that's the point.

The leave side ran a campaign on having our cake and eating it. 2 years later, all we hear from the EU is that there is no cake. We also hear from prominent leave MPs that to really leave the EU, we can't be in a customs union etc. They want WTO. Fine, campaign on WTO then. Be honest about it. Same for remain, don't bullsh1t about immigration, just state that we'll have less control over it, but that's the trade off. Then people can make an informed choice on 2 honest options, rather than the shower of lies (from all sides) that passed for a referendum 2 years ago.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You cant categorically say there will be no agreement to offer. It might be BINO, or something else.

Yes, things are a fudging mess right now, and yes - it looks like they cant organise a tinkle up in a brewery - but they will agree something, and then the options are WTO, Remain, or whatever bastard option they come up with.

Given that choice, Id vote WTO, by the way.

BUT - I do agree with you - if its remain/BINO/Norway then BINO is just bloody stupid.

Which actually raises another point around your original.

"Remain" - or - Fully sign up, EURO and everything?

I made this point a few hundred pages back - fromt he EUs pov, why would they allow a remain option, rather than insisting on full integration?

And its fair to say we have never really gone all in in the past, always tried to keep something of an arms length relationship.

We have put in A50, given our notice, if we try to back out - were I the EU - I wouldnt just allow a "forgive and forget" option, rather Id insist on full membership and a promise to play nice.

 

[the dza]

You cant categorically say there will be no agreement to offer. It might be BINO, or something else.

Yes, things are a fudging mess right now, and yes - it looks like they cant organise a tinkle up in a brewery - but they will agree something, and then the options are WTO, Remain, or whatever bastard option they come up with.

Given that choice, Id vote WTO, by the way.

BUT - I do agree with you - if its remain/BINO/Norway then BINO is just bloody stupid.

Which actually raises another point around your original.

"Remain" - or - Fully sign up, EURO and everything?

I made this point a few hundred pages back - fromt he EUs pov, why would they allow a remain option, rather than insisting on full integration?

And its fair to say we have never really gone all in in the past, always tried to keep something of an arms length relationship.

We have put in A50, given our notice, if we try to back out - were I the EU - I wouldnt just allow a "forgive and forget" option, rather Id insist on full membership and a promise to play nice.

Well, you could be right re. the EU allowing us to remain on terms or insisting we integrate more. I'm sure it'd be easy enough to present the option of a 2nd referendum to the EU and find out where they stand. If remain became a vote for the Euro etc then remain voters would have a lot of thinking to do. I'm honestly not sure how I'd vote if remain meant the Euro etc.

WTO/Remain/3rd option could work (in the event of a 2nd referendum), but only if the 3rd option was something honest and deliverable. As a country, we really phucked up the referendum on this, we needed the options honestly established before going out to vote, as it still seems that leaving means different things depending on who you ask. With our politics/media, I guess this wasn't possible, so now at least, with 2 years of further debate on what Brexit actually means, we have a chance to establish some precise choices.

So sure, put a 3rd option on the ballot as long as it's agreed to be an actual option, not an idea of what we'd like things to be.

Maybe they'll all figure it out and we won't need any further votes. I hope so. I always think Spurs can win the league though.

I think most leave voters would vote WTO to be honest

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

If remain became a vote for the Euro etc then remain voters would have a lot of thinking to do. I'm honestly not sure how I'd vote if remain meant the Euro etc.

And theres a real twist, heh?

Maybe thats something you should think through a little more? Id be interested to see where you land on it.

You see, at least from what Ive seen here, all remainer arguments are for the virtues of the EU, and yet the UK has never quite gone all in has it?

The way remainer arguments are framed, I would think full integration would appeal - so its interesting your first reaction is hesitance.

So, if you want clarity on a vote, it needs to be on all options

Remain - full integration, EURO, the works.
Other deal - specifics, Norway etc...
WTO - "heres how this works"

I dont think there is a reset button where we get to forget all about it. The EU has been a bully throughout this negotiation, I dont see why they would. Makes much more sense they leverage the situation to get full buy in from us once and for all.

 

[the dza]

I've always felt that the government would end up with a Norway style fudge, nobody would be happy with it but life would go on as normal.

But the reaction to May's proposal, from both sides of the debate, just makes me re-consider. Because if enough Tory leave voters start saying in the polls that they are going to UKIP, the Tory party will (imo) go into survival mode, and get a Brexiter in charge. And that takes the fudge option off the table.

 

[the dza]

And theres a real twist, heh?

Maybe thats something you should think through a little more? Id be interested to see where you land on it.

You see, at least from what Ive seen here, all remainer arguments are for the virtues of the EU, and yet the UK has never quite gone all in has it?

The way remainer arguments are framed, I would think full integration would appeal - so its interesting your first reaction is hesitance.

So, if you want clarity on a vote, it needs to be on all options

Remain - full integration, EURO, the works.
Other deal - specifics, Norway etc...
WTO - "heres how this works"

I dont think there is a reset button where we get to forget all about it. The EU has been a bully throughout this negotiation, I dont see why they would. Makes much more sense they leverage the situation to get full buy in from us once and for all.

Yeah, I would have to really consider it a lot. Right now, I couldn't tell you that I'd definitely vote for or against remaining with further integration (Euro and the full works). I think that sort of underlines that the deal we have now (our current EU status) is a good one. It has flaws, issues with free movement etc. But overall, we do quite well out of it as a country and with some Scandinavian style governance, we could do a lot better across all sections of society imo.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I've always felt that the government would end up with a Norway style fudge, nobody would be happy with it but life would go on as normal.

But the reaction to May's proposal, from both sides of the debate, just makes me re-consider. Because if enough Tory leave voters start saying in the polls that they are going to UKIP, the Tory party will (imo) go into survival mode, and get a Brexiter in charge. And that takes the fudge option off the table.

Norway would be a fudge up, I would vote "all in" before I voted that, and Im much more on the leave side of things!

What a fudging mess that would be.

I still lean more to the complete clean break, rather than being compromised, so wouldnt actually mind the Tories folding like that. Not because I think it will be sunshine and rainbows, obviously, but because I think that will lead to the real and genuine change we desperately need.

And also because Im less than enamoured with the EU and how they conduct themselves or intend to carry forward.

Yeah, I would have to really consider it a lot. Right now, I couldn't tell you that I'd definitely vote for or against remaining with further integration (Euro and the full works). I think that sort of underlines that the deal we have now (our current EU status) is a good one. It has flaws, issues with free movement etc. But overall, we do quite well out of it as a country and with some Scandinavian style governance, we could do a lot better across all sections of society imo.

Without wanting to sound patronising, or come over badly - that really is interesting to me. As I said, the way remainers have framed their argument has never been "So long as we have the arrangement we have now..." but always to the merits of the EU and its principles. I would assume, then, that a choice to fully integrate would be welcomed.

Perhaps you arent quite the remainer you thought ;O)

 

[the dza]

Without wanting to sound patronising, or come over badly - that really is interesting to me. As I said, the way remainers have framed their argument has never been "So long as we have the arrangement we have now..." but always to the merits of the EU and its principles. I would assume, then, that a choice to fully integrate would be welcomed.

Perhaps you arent quite the remainer you thought ;O)

I've never really been an ardent remainer, I can see some of the arguments for leaving. I have a few core reasons for remaining. 1. I don't think leaving is worth the upheaval. 2. I think it makes us more secure, geo-politically. Part of a bloc of peaceful nations, contributes to keeping that peace and stability across Europe. 3. (and this has more come to light after the referendum) I don't want us to be sold out to American corporate interests by unscrupulous Tory bastards.

On balance, I would probably vote to remain even if that meant further integration (though I would much prefer we keep our current EU arrangement). That for me would be the least-worst option (if we were limited to those options). I don't drape myself in the EU flag, so I don't think it's a utopian organisation. I'd just try to think, on balance what the best option would be. So there, you've helped me make my mind up in the event of Remain+++

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I dont fully agree with your point of view, but can certainly respect it, and appreciate your approach to the matter

It does, for me, seem like a turning point. Either we get more, or less, integrated. I dont really see a magic reset option.

Which I think presents an interesting point of discussion.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think, if there was a 2nd referendum, it should be between Remain and WTO (Hard Brexit). This is the only honest choice imo. Norway type options make nobody happy on either side of the vote.

If out means WTO, then there is then an honesty to the leave campaign that was not there first time around. First time around, leaving would be easy they said, we could have access to this and that, German Cars, French/Italian wine, falling over themselves to do a deal. All b0ll0cks.

Remain then just has to be honest and lay out the problems with EU, and make the case that even with these problems, it's a better deal for the country than going on to WTO rules. 2 years of the problems with Brexit manifesting has made people much better informed imo, on all sides of the vote.

Is there a remain vote option though? We had the straight vote, Leave or remain, leave was the democratic choice.

Should the next vote be how we leave and to what level? Remain should not even figure surely?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Is there a remain vote option though? We had the straight vote, Leave or remain, leave was the democratic choice.

Should the next vote be how we leave and to what level? Remain should not even figure surely?

Thats my preference, though I see the logic - BINO is just compromised remain.

 

[the dza]

Is there a remain vote option though? We had the straight vote, Leave or remain, leave was the democratic choice.

Should the next vote be how we leave and to what level? Remain should not even figure surely?

That's a good point. But if they can't figure out how to leave, other than WTO/hard brexit whatever you want to call it, then imo Remain should be an option. Because the campaign to leave made it seem like we would be able to get a fantastic deal etc. access to most things/everything we currently do. 2 years down the line, what Liam Fox said would be the "easiest deal in history" looks anything but. At the moment, between what the EU will agree to and what the right of the Tory party will agree to, there seems to be no middle ground.

So, if the final place the government ends up is WTO/Hard Brexit, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to go back to the public and say "we can either do this or remain."

 

[Grays_1890]

So, if the final place the government ends up is WTO/Hard Brexit, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to go back to the public and say "we can either do this or remain."

I do think that if you back track on leave as someone mentioned earlier you have huge issues. People will question any vote that comes up in future.

If we don't leave and offer the vote back out I will be questioning every time I go to the polls if my vote actually counts and thats not being dramatic I think you would have every right to think that.

 

[the dza]

I do think that if you back track on leave as someone mentioned earlier you have huge issues. People will question any vote that comes up in future.

If we don't leave and offer the vote back out I will be questioning every time I go to the polls if my vote actually counts and thats not being dramatic I think you would have every right to think that.

Again, you make a good point.

In theory, the government could go for a Norway+ (the BINO/Brexit in name only) option. That's the problem with the initial referendum, leave was never clearly defined. Could be Norway/Switzerland/Canada/WTO. All of those things technically satisfy "leave the EU." I know personally one person who voted leave because he wants us to be more like Switzerland.

So, on the flip-side, if the government somehow got Norway+ through Parliament and left the EU on that basis, would you be happy with that? Or would you rather a further vote with the opportunity to vote for a WTO Brexit?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Id be happy to vote on what Brexit to go for, but that doesnt need to include "no Brexit" on the ballot.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The first referendum that should be on the table is whether Great Britain should declare independence from the United Kingdom.

That would unblock Canada+ in an instance